Dispatch process in DOO with a dispatcher present on the platform

[Fred26]

I find the term 'platform buddies' to be derogatory and belittling. They're dispatchers, or assistants, or hosts, or any one of a load of different terms, but buddies they aren't.

 

[Bromley boy]

It wasn’t a blanket assumption at all; I was quoting and responding to a specific question whereby it was asked if there was only one dispatcher present they needed to be adjacent to the cab. The three examples I provided were just to show that this doesn’t always need to be the case, although of course this depends on local instructions as well as the stock.
.

At the risk of being a pedant I responded to your first statement, made in response to the OP’s general (not specific) question:

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab;

You can’t safely make that statement as we don’t know where the OP is talking about. In the areas I operate they absolutely *would* need to dispatch from the side of the cab, irrespective of a different method being permissible in other areas.

I’ll admit my previous posting was also misleading as I generalised about the method I am used to, which clearly isn’t universal.

Hopefully the subsequent postings have clairifed matters.

I’m also unsure what you mean about “GTR is fully DO.” Do you mean DOO?

The relevant sections of the rule book (SS1) refer to “DO” trains and make no mention of the term “DOO”. I suspect this is where the previous poster got this from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen that method being used at both locations recently. Although on the GWML a number of platforms have no dispatch equipment or staff and drivers have to stick their head out otherwise won't be able to see anything, so it is the norm there really. This includes the Down Relief at busy stations such as Southall and Hayes & Harlington

Yeah, the Thames Valley DOO is really very basic. Not really unsafe per-se (the driver just does near enough what a guard could do) but a lot more effort than regular DOO. Does surprise me it hasn't been improved with monitors etc over the years.

Re Southern the WLL and Coastway are guarded I think.

 

[Bromley boy]

I find the term 'platform buddies' to be derogatory and belittling. They're dispatchers, or assistants, or hosts, or any one of a load of different terms, but buddies they aren't.

Dispatchers hold a specific license to dispatch trains, and are distinct from hosts etc. This is an important distinction as unfortunately there have been a few instances of non-dispatch trained staff at DOO locations giving hand signals to drivers, in an effort to be helpful.

This is bad practice as it leads drivers into believing it is safe to depart, based on a signal from someone who isn’t actually competent to make that determination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this what used to happen on MK2 intercity services which had no bell buzzer? I.e. guard would show a green indication to the driver who would look out of his/her window for the ready to start?

Yes, that's how all LHCS was (and some still is) dispatched, though I expect the TPE and CS stock will have a signal buzzer.

 

[Fred26]

Dispatchers hold a specific license to dispatch trains, and are distinct from hosts etc. This is an important distinction as unfortunately there have been a few instances of non-dispatch trained staff at DOO locations giving hand signals to drivers, in an effort to be helpful.

This is bad practice as it leads drivers into believing it is safe to depart, based on a signal from someone who isn’t actually competent to make that determination.

I agree with what you're saying, but my point is about the term, not the job spec. There's no reason hosts can't be trained to dispatch.
My point was that each TOC uses a different term, but 'buddy' is what I take issue with.

 

[Carlisle]

Why did they remove platform dispatch from Lewes, but Eastbourne still needs it?

Seems ridiculous that a driver self-dispatching a 12 car on a curved platform is absolutely fine but a 4 car at Eastbourne can't go without it.

At a lot of the busier terminal stations dispatchers operate TRTS (train ready to start) buttons to inform the signalman when to set the route, probably not normally used at Lewes as it’s a through station.

 

[Clip]

Nope. Once RA is given that’s it, and it can’t be revoked.

T.

It may have changed now but I used to see it happen a few times a month at the cross where a WAGN dispatcher would flash the RA after it was given and then start the process again after speaking to the signaller who set the route back to danger

 

[Bromley boy]

It may have changed now but I used to see it happen a few times a month at the cross where a WAGN dispatcher would flash the RA after it was given and then start the process again after speaking to the signaller who set the route back to danger

That can still happen.

The trouble is it’s a bit of a faf, the signaller would need to speak to the driver, confirm it was ok to put the signal back. I think this also requires waiting for a “time out” period to elapse.

It’s generally easier and quicker if the platform staff fall back on bat and flag once RA has been given in error.

The most common errors I’ve seen are

- RA given vice CD

- CD and RA given in the correct sequence but RA given before interlock has been obtained (worryingly I was given RA once with no interlock, only to look back and see someone holding doors open)

I’ve seen CD being flashed on and off - that is also something that tends to be ignored by drivers as it isn’t the correct indication.

 

[RichardKing]

Re Southern the WLL and Coastway are guarded I think.

On the Coastway, it's only the 313s and 171s that have Guards. 377s are now completely DOO.

 

[RichardKing]

At a lot of the busier terminal stations dispatchers operate TRTS (train ready to start) buttons to inform the signalman when to set the route, probably not normally used at Lewes as it’s a through station.

The only time I could imagine the TRTS button being necessary at Lewes is for the evening detachment. Sometimes, during disruption/engineering possessions, trains are turned back on the up platforms, so it would also be useful for letting the signaller know when the driver has changed ends and set the train up.

 

[pt_mad]

I don’t think this is defined. I would say they are to show to the Train Operator that the staff on the platform thinks the train is ready to have the doors closed. They could also show customers on the platform the doors are soon to close as well.

So are the London Underground staff with bats part of the dispatch process or just there to assist the driver to observe when to begin the dispatch process? Does the driver take all responsibility if someone gets trapped in a door when boarding if a staff member has raised the bat to say begin door closure?

 

[Clip]

Norwood junction has dispatch duties - especially on LO from there too

 

[jon0844]

I find the term 'platform buddies' to be derogatory and belittling. They're dispatchers, or assistants, or hosts, or any one of a load of different terms, but buddies they aren't.

'Second dispatch' is the correct term for the 'assistants', and in reality they're fully trained and can take turns to being the person in charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are the London Underground staff with bats part of the dispatch process or just there to assist the driver to observe when to begin the dispatch process?

The latter.

Does the driver take all responsibility if someone gets trapped in a door when boarding if a staff member has raised the bat to say begin door closure?

I think so. (And trapping people in doors is usual practice at Bank in the rush hour).

 

[Mojo]

So are the London Underground staff with bats part of the dispatch process or just there to assist the driver to observe when to begin the dispatch process? Does the driver take all responsibility if someone gets trapped in a door when boarding if a staff member has raised the bat to say begin door closure?

There is no “dispatch process,” as trains are not dispatched (in the manner used on the Mainline) in routine circumstances; it is only if the driver cannot see from the cab the full PTI then he would request assisted dispatch. I outlined the situation in post #16 above, which has further information.

 

[pt_mad]

LU doesn’t have dispatch staff, the staff with the bats and remote public address that you see are to assist with dwell time management (and as part of risk mitigation against PTI incidents) and are scheduled to be on certain platforms at certain times of the day as determined by business needs. The Train Operator is responsible for checking the PTI and departing as and when he feels appropriate.

On infrequent occasions staff might be requested to provide assisted dispatch, for example if any part of the train stops within the platform and the Train Operator cannot see the PTI from the cab (perhaps due to equipment fault, station overrun, alarm activation when train leaving and so on), this would be accomplished by the Train Operator and staff member on the platform agreeing which section of the platform to check, and then deciding between themselves how it will be indicated. It is usually easiest for the staff on the platform to dial the train radio on their handheld radio but this is up to the staff to decide.

Hi, and thanks.

I still don't quite understand how they can have staff with bats on London Underground platforms at certain times, but they are not dispatchers or part of the dispatch process (as in the dispatch the train operator carries out per say).
If they are to assist with dwell times and to help with the avoidance of PTI incidents, why do they need a bat? And one so similar to a Network Rail style bat but with a totally different meaning when raised?
Surely the raising of the bat on the Underground must be to indicate something to the train operator, otherwise it would not be needed? And yet they are not part of the dispatch process and train operators should supposedly carry out the full dispatch themselves, so surely there is no need to take any notice of the platform bat? So if they took a raised bat as it being safe to close doors and it was not, it seems the platform person bears no liability as the driver should have carried out the full check by themselves anyway regardless? It seems very grey?

Also, it was mentioned that the underground has staff with bats at some locations for business needs or where the train operator cannot see the full PTI from the cab. But surely, if they cannot see the full PTI from the cab, and need an assistant, then the bat IS a part of the dispatch and the platform person must take responsibility for that part of the PTI?

Also, what does it mean by business need? As in a person needs to be present for customer service? Surely it should be safety need?

Thanks for all the info folks.

 

[Mojo]

And one so similar to a Network Rail style bat but with a totally different meaning when raised?

The bats look similar to those used on the Mainline but with differences. When first introduced they were white on both sides (as opposed to white one side black the other used on Mainline). Now new bats are white but have black shapes on each side, forming a white cross in the middle, I believe this is to aid visibility, however white bats are still used where stations have them.

Surely the raising of the bat on the Underground must be to indicate something to the train operator, otherwise it would not be needed?

The rule book states that staff undertaking platform duties tell customers that the train is ready to depart, to stand clear of the doors and back behind the yellow line and then indicate that this has been done by the use of a baton (or raised hand).

And yet they are not part of the dispatch process and train operators should supposedly carry out the full dispatch themselves, so surely there is no need to take any notice of the platform bat?

There is no need to take any notice of the platform staff undertaking this activity, although they are there to help! Whilst the term "despatch" [sic] is used to determine the departing of a train it is not to be confused with the use of the word dispatch/despatch of a train in the Mainline context.

Also, it was mentioned that the underground has staff with bats at some locations for business needs or where the train operator cannot see the full PTI from the cab. But surely, if they cannot see the full PTI from the cab, and need an assistant, then the bat IS a part of the dispatch and the platform person must take responsibility for that part of the PTI?

Not quite. Platform staff are scheduled to be on certain platforms at certain times of the day to undertake platform duties (known as "Sats") to minimise dwell times, improve the flow of people through the station and reduce the risks involved in overcrowding. It is only in exceptional circumstances where a member of staff would be required to provide assisted dispatch, such as defective monitors, stopping past the monitors, etc, and the rule book requires the staff on the platform to agree with the Train Operator how they will confirm this; this /could/ be a raised baton if they decide upon this, but does not have to be.[1]

Also, what does it mean by business need? As in a person needs to be present for customer service? Surely it should be safety need?

I had seen the formula somewhere, but it's decided when and where to have Sats staff based upon a formula to do with timetabled dwell times, number of customers, frequency of service, and so on. Some locations (for instance Bank Central line and Embankment Northbound Northern line) will also have staff not carrying out Sats duties but permanently on the platform whilst trains are running (even at say 2.30am on Saturday night!) as part of risk mitigation against PTI accidents.

[1]One final side point, is that for the last train booked for a connection, station staff will display a green handlamp (or a raised baton on the Central line) to the Train Operator who will then close his doors and depart. Historically this was done at every station and is still done at certain locations but is now only required for connections unless authority has been given.

 

[Bromley boy]

The rule book states that staff undertaking platform duties tell customers that the train is ready to depart, to stand clear of the doors and back behind the yellow line and then indicate that this has been done by the use of a baton (or raised hand).

I must say this does seem a strange procedure from a mainline stand point - a kind of weird hybrid between bat and flag and DOO monitor dispatch.

If the T-OP sees the bats, is therefore entitled to assume no one has a coat/bag strap caught in the doors, and that it is safe to take power?

I presume if the platform staff are using bats there are local requirements around minimum numbers due to platform curvature/visibility?

 

[cactustwirly]

They wouldn't need to dispatch from alongside the driving cab; I have seen drivers look back out of the cab window to platform staff dispatching from positions away from the cab at Slough (not sure if staff still use this method here it was 5+ years ago) and also on the Down Main at Stratford.

Dispatch staff at Slough still use this method

 

[tsr]

Is this what used to happen on MK2 intercity services which had no bell buzzer? I.e. guard would show a green indication to the driver who would look out of his/her window for the ready to start?

Yes, or the guard’s green indication could be relayed by platform staff due to poor visibility or platform curvature (including by them activating an RA indicator where provided).

This is still done for guard dispatch when there is a bell/buzzer failure. All guards carry green flags and lights for that reason.

*”bat and flag” is now permissible using a bat that incorporates both white and green lights.

A reminder was recently issued that lights on these bats should only be used in darkness or poor visibility. A clean white bat, without lights, and green flag should now usually be used during daylight hours. In practice, this recommendation does nothing to improve visibility - so you and I can guess the staff reaction to it...

Trains with in build CCtV the cameras stay on

They don’t have to. If platform staff are available, they replace the cameras to all extents and purposes.

Norwood junction has dispatch duties - especially on LO from there too

It seems some ARL LO services dispatch themselves from Platform 5 now. Not sure if these occasions were anomalies or everyday occurrences.

Southern DOO and guard operated services must be dispatched by platform staff from Platforms 1 / 4 / 5 at Norwood Junction. 3 and 6 do not need platform staff assistance. 2 and 7 are of course not used by passenger services.

 

[Fred26]

'Second dispatch' is the correct term for the 'assistants', and in reality they're fully trained and can take turns to being the person in charge.

Not necessarily. All GN dispatchers are Station Assistants. They're all trained dispatchers. There's no distinction between 'first or second' dispatch - it doesn't exist on GN.

 

[jon0844]

Not necessarily. All GN dispatchers are Station Assistants. They're all trained dispatchers. There's no distinction between 'first or second' dispatch - it doesn't exist on GN.

I know they're all the same. That's what I was trying to say (hence people can take turns because there's no person more qualified than the other) but some stations have a second member of staff (and they're referred to as Second dispatch) only at certain times. They are likely not permanent at that station and might be agency, but of course they have the exact same safety critical qualifications.

 

[pt_mad]

So if more services go DOO/DCO in the future, what is most likely to happen at stations which currently have dispatchers who currently dispatch with the guard?

Will it be a case of all those stations which currently have dispatch staff retain them but will give their dispatch indications to the driver rather than the guard?
Or will it be the case that all will be reviewed and some stations may lose dispatchers if DOO came in?
Could it be used as a cost cutting exercise to reduce the number of staff at stations?
Or would TOCs prefer to keep staff on the platforms dispatching for customer service reasons?

Do Network Rail stipulate that dispatchers MUST be retained at some locations? Such as Birmingham New Street where everything must receive the RA.?

What has been the case previously where DOO has been introduced?

Also, if dispatchers were to be retained, would CD/RA equipment be fitted at stations if they didn't currently have it, or would the dispatcher simply dispatch with bats and flags to the driver as installing CD/RA would be deemed unnecessary or expensive?

And finally, if it were deemed that a train that previously required one dispatcher (for guard dispatch), actually now required two dispatchers for platform DOO dispatch (so one dispatcher was adjacent to driving cab), then would this likely lead to the TOC simply removing the dispatch duties at that station from the platform staff for reasons of cost? (Thus just giving the driver the full dispatch duties)?

Thanks.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't it the case that Network Rail doesn't intend to install more equipment with a view to all trains having bodyside cameras? This does of course mean, what happens when the cameras fail (as happens quite a bit on the 387s)?

I would hope station staff are retained for customer service roles, passenger assists and the occasional dispatch. I can imagine that if ticket offices are closed and staff are moved outside with handheld ticket selling equipment, you may find the two roles merged and staff cuts can be made that way.

I think ticket office staff are going to be the next hit.

 

[APUK002]

Hitchin used to dispatch 12-cars from the middle of the platform, because they only had one dispatcher and that was agreed to be safe. There is a line on the platform to indicate where the dispatcher should stand. The driver could either look out or use his DOO mirror to see the dispatcher.
That changed a couple of years ago (when GN hired the 321s). Hitchin's roster changed and they were given more staff. Now they dispatch one in the middle and one at the front.

Yup,seen this @ hitchin,same for arlesey 2.

 

[hassaanhc]

Yeah, the Thames Valley DOO is really very basic. Not really unsafe per-se (the driver just does near enough what a guard could do) but a lot more effort than regular DOO. Does surprise me it hasn't been improved with monitors etc over the years.

Re Southern the WLL and Coastway are guarded I think.

All the Up Relief platforms have cameras + monitors due to curvature, and looking at old photos they do appear to have replaced both at pretty much all the stations a few years ago. Only a few more weeks now until pretty much all the stopping services to/from London start using 387s and therefore have cameras at all platforms.

 

[Fred26]

Yup,seen this @ hitchin,same for arlesey 2.

Sorry, no. Arlesey has two staff AM and two PM. One stands in the middle, one at the front. It's always been that way there.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

So if more services go DOO/DCO in the future, what is most likely to happen at stations which currently have dispatchers who currently dispatch with the guard?

Will it be a case of all those stations which currently have dispatch staff retain them but will give their dispatch indications to the driver rather than the guard?
Or will it be the case that all will be reviewed and some stations may lose dispatchers if DOO came in?
Could it be used as a cost cutting exercise to reduce the number of staff at stations?
Or would TOCs prefer to keep staff on the platforms dispatching for customer service reasons?

Do Network Rail stipulate that dispatchers MUST be retained at some locations? Such as Birmingham New Street where everything must receive the RA.?

What has been the case previously where DOO has been introduced?

Also, if dispatchers were to be retained, would CD/RA equipment be fitted at stations if they didn't currently have it, or would the dispatcher simply dispatch with bats and flags to the driver as installing CD/RA would be deemed unnecessary or expensive?

And finally, if it were deemed that a train that previously required one dispatcher (for guard dispatch), actually now required two dispatchers for platform DOO dispatch (so one dispatcher was adjacent to driving cab), then would this likely lead to the TOC simply removing the dispatch duties at that station from the platform staff for reasons of cost? (Thus just giving the driver the full dispatch duties)?

Thanks.

It depends on the station to be honest and the results of any risk assessment. Busy platforms often have dispatch because like discussed above it helps passenger flow by having dispatchers on the platform speeding up boarding and the dispatch procedure because the driver doesn’t have to spend time viewing 12 screens with passengers all over the place whilst trying to do the safety check and also stations with multiple and set back entry points to the platforms like East Croydon etc.

On Southern majority of stations which had conductor dispatch have retained DOO dispatch with agency staff brought into plug the gaps with the requirement for extra staff but then I believe they pretty much retained the previous dispatch plans at least on the BML so it really depends on what happens when they presumably review these with the roll out of Thameslink programme services next year. You have to also remember platform staff do more than just dispatch they also lock and unlock trains such as 455 stock for short platforms, lock Empty Coaching Stock and split and attach. I wouldn’t say they retain dispatch though just for customer service, like with the OBS you can still have staff present for customer service even if they are not involved with the dispatch process.

Problem with CD/RA is this really only benefits the TOC as they are the ones saving money on staffing costs so Network Rail are understandably reluctant to install this as there is no cost benefit to them. If busy mainline stations such as East Croydon don’t have CD indicators and the staff have to walk back and forth to push the RA I can’t see any other stations having it installed.

I am not sure on the situation with Network Rail managed stations in regards to dispatch arrangements but stations managed by TOCs at least it is up to them to produce a risk assessment and provide staff dependent on the findings of this. Thameslink stations have just had Dispatch removed and they have CD/RA indicators this isn’t a safeguard for dispatch at all as they will just change the dispatch plan.

I do think that dispatch will begin to be phased out as newer stock such as the 700s is being rolled out with much more reliable cameras and equipment and lighting is upgraded accordingly. From the TOC point of view the less people involved in dispatch and safety critical activity the better means they don’t have to worry about having first to last cover and waiting for dispatchers to become available at busy stations.

 

[ert47]

Norwood junction has dispatch duties - especially on LO from there too

It seems some ARL LO services dispatch themselves from Platform 5 now. Not sure if these occasions were anomalies or everyday occurrences.

Southern DOO and guard operated services must be dispatched by platform staff from Platforms 1 / 4 / 5 at Norwood Junction. 3 and 6 do not need platform staff assistance. 2 and 7 are of course not used by passenger services.

AFAIK all ARL LO services from Norwood are self dispatch, dispatch staff only dispatch Southern services at the platforms mentioned above and assist with locking out terminators going into the depot.