Displaced 185s..

[pemma]

The 319's that are planning on moving up north are going to be used on Manchester Picc/Victoria - Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows, not on Blackpool services, according to Wikipedia anyway.

Personally that seems like a bad idea, because although the 185's are crammed they're actually very stylish, the 319's are older stock, so Blackpool services would have the standard of train decreased. Liverpool services are currently Sprinter operation, so a 319 would be quite a nice 'electric' stylish unit.

I hope to dear god that 319's do not go on Blackpool services. In fact, I don't know why they're on Thameslink services, one of they key services hitting central London, I personally think they should work services that are no longer than an hour.

When the government first proposed the cascaded Thameslink EMUs going to the North West and Thames Valley the Bolton and Blackpool electrification hadn't been confirmed. However, it was obvious there would be surplus 319s, so when they added on the Blackpool and Bolton bits the assumption has been the rest of the 319s will take over on those services.

The only new EMUs that have been proposed are for Manchester to Scotland. Manchester to Liverpool and Liverpool to Wigan will get 319s unless something changes. However, electrification on these routes will either happen during the current franchises or very soon after the next franchises start. With the Blackpool services there is the option of a new EMU order being placed after the next franchises start and being ready in time.

I think the following would be best for the Blackpool/Cumbria routes:
1. Electrify Oxenholme-Windermere.
2. Order new 3 car 380s (or equivalent) for Blackpool and Windmere services - enough to allow peak time 6 car operation and/or portion working as required.
3. Interwork Windermere and Barrow services as they used to be to give an hourly Manchester-Bolton-Lancaster frequency.

 

[tbtc]

Ignoring the Blackpool and Scotland services there's 35 diagrams for the current TPE timetable:

South TPE: 7
Middlesbrough: 6
Hull: 4
Newcastle: 6
Scarborough: 6
Barrow: 5
Windermere: 3

If the Manchester-Leeds semi-fasts get added in then we've got another 5 diagrams.

So that'll be 40 diagrams with no strengthened services and no other service enhancements. I think 60 units could easily be utilised effectively given Liverpool-Scarborough will ideally be 4/6 car operation as well as some of the South TPE, Newcastle and Barrow services.

I'm not sure of your figures there, e.g. the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service is no longer than the Newcastle service, Windermere doesn't need three units to maintain an hourly shuttle on the branchline...

Put it this way, I can't see eight 185s being used on services through Chorley once the wires are up (my hunch is that the Barrow service will become a Northern shuttle as far as Lancaster/ Preston, with a token through service to Manchester).

And, if I were a betting man, I'd suggest that any additional Leeds services are dependant on electrification (in the medium term), any capacity increases in the next decade being from doubled up DMUs instead.

 

[pemma]

I'm not sure of your figures there, e.g. the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service is no longer than the Newcastle service, Windermere doesn't need three units to maintain an hourly shuttle on the branchline...

You should really look at the timetables properly at some point. Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes is a full hourly service taking 3 hours, meaning a unit is effectively wasted because of TPE not wanting a 1 minute turnaround time at both ends.

Newcastle isn't a full hourly service, for instance, there's no 17:10 arrival from Manchester Airport.

Windermere is not just an hourly shuttle on a branch line. There are numerous services which extend to Lancaster/Preston and Manchester Airport. Only 2/3rds of services start or terminate at Oxehholme. 3 diagrams is actually an underestimate based on the services that continue beyond Oxenholme being more evenly distributed than at present and taking in to consideration of the fact that the additional units are used on Barrow/Blackpool/Scotland services as well.

The Piccadilly-Leeds semi-fasts would be half-hourly if you're wondering why that would use 5 diagrams.

And, if I were a betting man, I'd suggest that any additional Leeds services are dependant on electrification (in the medium term), any capacity increases in the next decade being from doubled up DMUs instead.

Well place it bet then. It must be excellent odds considering additional Leeds services are planned from 2016, while electrification will likely be later than that.

 

[Nym]

One is currently wondering if there is any chance of the semi fast services into Leeds being extended to Hull or York... the former really could do with more services to Leeds, and cheaper AP tickets may be able to compete better with the likes of the X62 bus and National Express.

 

[IanXC]

If North TPE is electrified then maybe in 8 years time they'll be the possibly of a 170 and 185 swap. However, 185s will be more suited to Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes and Blackpool to Scarborough than 170s.

I'm not sure there would be any benefit, once the depot facilities, speed limits and such are resolved, much better to keep the 185s in the North and take advantage of their design.

Far better to use it to double up existing TPE services than move them anywhere else in the country.

Definitely, in the first instance doubling up, then following North TPE electrification use on services like Blackpool-York, the Settle and Carlisle, Sheffield-Scarborough and Nottingham-Leeds.

I expect that this will see the nine 170s heading off elsewhere and some of the busy services through Leeds getting six coaches for part of the journey

So add 10 350s and remove 9 170s and strengthen services through Leeds?

 

[tbtc]

So add 10 350s and remove 9 170s and strengthen services through Leeds?

As I've said on this thread I can't see 185s being needed for the North West services once the lines are electrified, which frees up over fifteen services...

...get rid of the nine 170s...

...and there are still spare 185s for doubled up services on North TPE (with south TPE benefitting from having three coach 185s instead of the two coach 170s that are on a few duties).

 

[ChrisCooper]

One is currently wondering if there is any chance of the semi fast services into Leeds being extended to Hull or York... the former really could do with more services to Leeds, and cheaper AP tickets may be able to compete better with the likes of the X62 bus and National Express.

Aren't the railways supposed to be struggling for capacity, and aren't cars supposed to be the main competition? Why compete with the coaches?

 

[pemma]

As I've said on this thread I can't see 185s being needed for the North West services once the lines are electrified, which frees up over fifteen services...

...get rid of the nine 170s...

And you also suggested Northern would run a Barrow shuttle. Where would the stock come from for:

a) An hourly Manchester Airport to Lancaster EMU service (or possibly it would need to go to Carnforth to be able to turn round.)
b) The Barrow and Windermere shuttles (assuming you're removing the 185s from those routes)
?

and there are still spare 185s for doubled up services on North TPE (with south TPE benefitting from having three coach 185s instead of the two coach 170s that are on a few duties).

You do realise there is a 4 car 170 working on South TPE on Saturdays. Are you proposing to reduce that to 3 cars?

 

[tbtc]

And you also suggested Northern would run a Barrow shuttle. Where would the stock come from for:

a) An hourly Manchester Airport to Lancaster EMU service (or possibly it would need to go to Carnforth to be able to turn round.)
b) The Barrow and Windermere shuttles (assuming you're removing the 185s from those routes)
?

We are talking a couple of DMUs needed in five years time to cover these, not a major cascade... if the nine TPE 170s go elsewhere then they should free up some Sprinters for Northern (e.g. 9x TPE 170s go to East Anglia, freeing up some 153/156s?)

You do realise there is a 4 car 170 working on South TPE on Saturdays. Are you proposing to reduce that to 3 cars?

I also realise that the vast majority of 170 diagrams on the southern TPE services are two coach, so replacing all 170 duties through Sheffield with 185s would be a capacity increase...

 

[pemma]

We are talking a couple of DMUs needed in five years time to cover these, not a major cascade... if the nine TPE 170s go elsewhere then they should free up some Sprinters for Northern (e.g. 9x TPE 170s go to East Anglia, freeing up some 153/156s?)

170s replacing 153 and 156s on local stopping services wouldn't be a good decision as it would result in extended journey times.

I also realise that the vast majority of 170 diagrams on the southern TPE services are two coach, so replacing all 170 duties through Sheffield with 185s would be a capacity increase...

2 car 170s on South TPE should be eliminated when the 185s off Scottish routes are released anyway.

 

[Nym]

To be honest though, nothing can be released in the short term until widespread electrification of TPE North is completed, services through Leeds are getting busier every day, the same as through Bolton. When the scottish units come the 8 units freed should be doubling up peak services through to Leeds and through the Bolton corridor to Manchester.

 

[RobShipway]

To be honest though, nothing can be released in the short term until widespread electrification of TPE North is completed, services through Leeds are getting busier every day, the same as through Bolton. When the scottish units come the 8 units freed should be doubling up peak services through to Leeds and through the Bolton corridor to Manchester.

Plus you will not get any Class 319's until the new Thameslink stock has been delivered such that it can replace the class 319 trains anyway.

 

[Nym]

Yep, and considering the amount of platforms around Northernland that can only take 6 car units that would be very expensive to extend to 8 car to make it worth taking on the 319 units, We're talking nearly £250mil for two stations getting sorted here. (Manc Ox Road and Salford Cres). It would be cheaper to order some brand spanking new Class 380 units for the Lancs area electrification, in a mix of 3 and 4 car units if so desired, primerally 3 car for Manc N and 4 car for Manc S, 2+2 seating, because theres no such thing as a short journey out of Manc and the layouts of 185s work for locals (add in some luggage space of course).

If I'm thinking right, a 380 is about £1.3mil per carrage, so lets say 190 carrages could be ordered for the cost of 8 car modifications to Oxford Road and Salford Crescent.

Now, where these could go...

The remaining 323s could be displaced from LM and sent to Northern but this wouldn't allow any service increases and LM has enough new stock, so, the X City Line can have the remainder of 323s if there is enough ordered to send these south.

Now, the 190 carrages, lets call that a mix of 3 and 4 car units, of course they'll be fitted with SDO so could work with single door overhangs at Crescent etc.

Thats 63 3 car units
50 3 car and 10 4 car (10 4 cars for SOT services)
etc etc.

Diagrams...
Working off current Northern service patterns, electric trains required over the current 323 diagrams.
1 spare for the current double diesel working.

3 for Airport - Liverpool L St
4 for Hazel Grove - Preston
3 for Victoria - Liverpool
3 for Victoria - Blackpool
4 for Liverpool - Blackpool
4 for Liverpool - Wigan

Totalling: 22 (Just the size of the 323 fleet, less one) And no doubled up diagrams

Now add in some service improvments

2 for 1tph Bolton - Victoria all stations (Current diagram either made fast or cut short)
2 for an additional 1tph Victoria - Liverpool (Bringing it up to 2)
3 for 2tph Victoria - Wigan via Paitcroft

Now we're up to 29

Now some longer diagrams on the

3 for Hazel Grove - Preston 3 - 6 car units
3 for Victoria - Blackpool N 3 - 6 car units.

35...

Maintenance spares... 40.

TPE's Blackpool and scottish services: 20

There we go...

Nice big fat order for 60 units, between Northern and TPE, TPE can have 4 car for their scottish services and 3 car for the Blackpool via Bolton initally. And LM can have all the 323 fleet..

Anyone think I missed any bits, can always tac on a few more units to that order.

Then all the 319s can go to Great Western, I'm sure they'll appreciate 12 car releifs to Oxford and Newbry.

 

[RobShipway]

Another alternative, is that you remove a carriage from the Class 319 four car units for the Manchester units so that it is three car units and add that carriage to the four car carriages for the Thames Valley services so that they are five car units which is what is often used with the 16x trains currently being used.

 

[sprinterguy]

Another alternative, is that you remove a carriage from the Class 319 four car units for the Manchester units so that it is three car units and add that carriage to the four car carriages for the Thames Valley services so that they are five car units which is what is often used with the 16x trains currently being used.

It is not possible to reform the 319s into anything other than their current four carriage formation though without a considerable amount of expenditure and modification, as the TSO vehicles carries a lot of essential mechanical equipment (Compressors and the like IIRC).

 

[Nym]

That and 3x20m formations won't be long enough, it needs to be 3x23m or 4x20m in an ideal world, but the latter will need platform extentions, that in the long term could do to be done, but thats looking at CP6 work, especially when it would be so many stations to change, it would be cheaper to have another order of about 40 - 60 odd class 380 units, Siemens have already said this would be quicker than 350 units anyway, and the teathing problems are sorted now.

 

[pemma]

Another alternative, is that you remove a carriage from the Class 319 four car units for the Manchester units so that it is three car units and add that carriage to the four car carriages for the Thames Valley services so that they are five car units which is what is often used with the 16x trains currently being used.

It is not possible to reform the 319s into anything other than their current four carriage formation though without a considerable amount of expenditure and modification, as the TSO vehicles carries a lot of essential mechanical equipment (Compressors and the like IIRC).

Additionally there would't be enough 3 car 319s to run all the necessary 6 car formations, unless Northern got all the 319s and all the 4th carriages were put in to store, which would be a waste.

 

[Nym]

And a 6 car 319 has 18m less capacity than a 6 car 323, hence why IMO it should be some more 380s ordered for Northern or LM (don't care, either, but if for LM, then Northern would need more cascaded 4 car units to run S Manc and have the 323s run N Manc) since the platform lengths are dictated in multiples of 23m and are at bursting point. And any new 380s would be a good political move aswell..

 

[jopsuk]

Are there stations where six car 323s only just fit? Ignoring the issues with reforming for a moment, would a mix of three and four car sets, giving seven car formations at approx 2m longer than a six car 323, fit? ScotRail do this with the new 380s (though they're 23m stock, but that's bye the bye)

 

[Nym]

Errr, the 380s are 23m stock...

And theres plenty...

Chorley is exactly 6x23m long, as is Salford Crescent and most of Manchester Oxford Road. Add in Lostock to that list aswell, and quite a few other places.

 

[jopsuk]

Errr, the 380s are 23m stock...

I don't know what you're talking about...
*wanders away whistling after ninja edit*

 

[Nym]

We all saw the mistake...

380s do seem to be the best idea for Northern at the moment, would be a very good political move too, and would see more 323s at Lundun Midlund. Perhaps a stupidly large rolling order if TPE North is to be electrified. 100+ units.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Thats because wikipedia is woefully out of date, and was posted before the entire Lancs triangle was approved.

And at the moment, no-one knows what will get used on any of the services, the 319s aren't appropriate for Manc - Preston - Blackpool via Bolton as the're just not long enough, or too long to be doubled up, it needs 3x23m long units (323s or 380s), or major platform alterations.

And if you care more about style than function, I'd be glad you're not in charge of rolling stock allocations...

True, Wikipedia is out of date (sometimes). But even so there is still nothing worse than travelling on a train like a 319. 185's are much nicer. Style is just as important as function, certainly can't travel on an out-of-date train! It's vitally important!

 

[ChrisCooper]

True, Wikipedia is out of date (sometimes). But even so there is still nothing worse than travelling on a train like a 319. 185's are much nicer. Style is just as important as function, certainly can't travel on an out-of-date train! It's vitally important!

319s are just over 20 years old, so still have at least 20 years of life left and therefore are hardly "out of date". I'm sure they would get major interior overhauls before being transfered. As far as style is concerned, who cares what it looks like when you are travelling on it? It's definitly not "vitally important"! Actually getting on the train is important. Getting a seat is up there for long journies. Cost is important too. Style, I doubt most people care, especially not the "normals" who can't tell trains apart anyway (and will often be fooled into thinking very old trains are new if refurbished to decent standards).

 

[pemma]

319s are just over 20 years old, so still have at least 20 years of life left and therefore are hardly "out of date".

The first ones were introduced in 1987, so by the time they are released from Thameslink they'll be almost 30 years old. The previous government suggested they will be good until the 2024-2029 CP after they undergo a major refurbishment on release from Thameslink.

 

[ValleyLines142]

319s are just over 20 years old, so still have at least 20 years of life left and therefore are hardly "out of date". I'm sure they would get major interior overhauls before being transfered. As far as style is concerned, who cares what it looks like when you are travelling on it? It's definitly not "vitally important"! Actually getting on the train is important. Getting a seat is up there for long journies. Cost is important too. Style, I doubt most people care, especially not the "normals" who can't tell trains apart anyway (and will often be fooled into thinking very old trains are new if refurbished to decent standards).

As jcollins said, they'll be nearly 30 years old by the time they're with Northern. Compared to a 185 which is only 6/7 years old. And it's not really a case of ''normals'' because anyone would be able to tell the difference. 319s look very drab and shabby. I've been on one from Brighton-London and it was yellow inside, certainly not very appealing. And the lighting in them is awful, I had a headache after about fifteen minutes. Now a 185, which I've been on several, looks so much nicer. I'd be gutted if I lost a six year old DMU to an almost 30 year old DMU. Quite frankly, these 319s would need a MASSIVE refurb, which would probably cost more than to buy a few extra carriages, and even if they were refurbished I doubt they'd look like a 185. Of course you must take on the decency of a train, there's nothing worse, ask ANY passenger out there, than travelling on a train that has awful lighting and not the best of interiors.

Now many people may think I hate 319s but it's not, I think their use would be fab on the Liverpool line because they'd be effectively like a posh 'electric' sprinter. But on a busy corridor like Manchester-Blackpool they're not suitable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

319s are just over 20 years old, so still have at least 20 years of life left and therefore are hardly "out of date". I'm sure they would get major interior overhauls before being transfered. As far as style is concerned, who cares what it looks like when you are travelling on it? It's definitly not "vitally important"! Actually getting on the train is important. Getting a seat is up there for long journies. Cost is important too. Style, I doubt most people care, especially not the "normals" who can't tell trains apart anyway (and will often be fooled into thinking very old trains are new if refurbished to decent standards).

As jcollins said, they'll be nearly 30 years old by the time they're with Northern. Compared to a 185 which is only 6/7 years old. And it's not really a case of ''normals'' because anyone would be able to tell the difference. 319s look very drab and shabby. I've been on one from Brighton-London and it was yellow inside, certainly not very appealing. And the lighting in them is awful, I had a headache after about fifteen minutes. Now a 185, which I've been on several, looks so much nicer. I'd be gutted if I lost a six year old DMU to an almost 30 year old EMU. Quite frankly, these 319s would need a MASSIVE refurb, which would probably cost more than to buy a few extra carriages, and even if they were refurbished I doubt they'd look like a 185. Of course you must take on the decency of a train, there's nothing worse, ask ANY passenger out there, than travelling on a train that has awful lighting and not the best of interiors.

Now many people may think I hate 319s but it's not, I think their use would be fab on the Liverpool line because they'd be effectively like a posh 'electric' sprinter. But on a busy corridor like Manchester-Blackpool they're not suitable.

 

[sprinterguy]

As jcollins said, they'll be nearly 30 years old by the time they're with Northern. Compared to a 185 which is only 6/7 years old. And it's not really a case of ''normals'' because anyone would be able to tell the difference. 319s look very drab and shabby. I've been on one from Brighton-London and it was yellow inside, certainly not very appealing. And the lighting in them is awful, I had a headache after about fifteen minutes. Now a 185, which I've been on several, looks so much nicer. I'd be gutted if I lost a six year old DMU to an almost 30 year old DMU. Quite frankly, these 319s would need a MASSIVE refurb, which would probably cost more than to buy a few extra carriages, and even if they were refurbished I doubt they'd look like a 185. Of course you must take on the decency of a train, there's nothing worse, ask ANY passenger out there, than travelling on a train that has awful lighting and not the best of interiors.

Now many people may think I hate 319s but it's not, I think their use would be fab on the Liverpool line because they'd be effectively like a posh 'electric' sprinter. But on a busy corridor like Manchester-Blackpool they're not suitable.

The 185s will be about ten years old by the time the 319s are delivered to Northern. A fullscale refurbishment of the 319s is proposed for when they are cascaded from Thameslink, although given that the cascade has been delayed by the late decision on the Thameslink Desiro City order then this might not happen immediately upon their removal from Thameslink duties. If the refurbishment is done well, then they could probably pass for a much newer train in most peoples' view.

The 319s are suited to a busy corridor like Manchester to Blackpool because they have more seats than 185s (even if they were refitted with 2+2 seating I would wager), and I for one would prefer to get a seat than to have to stand. Plus the 319s will be replacing not only the 185s, but also many of Northerns' 2, 3 and 4 carriage Pacer and Sprinter formations on the route.

 

[Nym]

all well and good, but manchester to blackpool is limited to 6x23m servives!
Much better suited to 323s or 380s...

 

[87015]

all well and good, but manchester to blackpool is limited to 6x23m servives!
Much better suited to 323s or 380s...

How many Manchester to Blackpool services are formed of 6x23m trains then? *ONE* - and even thats off peak - a 319 on every service will be a massive overall capacity increase.

 

[Nym]

OK then, lets abstract it out to the Manchester - Preston via Bolton section...

How many services are already formed of 4x20m units and are already overcrowded?

How many services in the evening peak are formed of 6x23m or 4x20m...?

If 4x20m stock is allocated to this route that will be the upper limit of what can be used on the route, and has significanly less capacity than the 6x23m units that ALREADY run on 3 evening peak diagrams (1616, 1715 and 1816 off Piccadilly) and adding into that most Southport and Preston diagrams off Piccadilly are now formed of 4 car units, a mix of 15, 20 and 23m carrages mind.

If there is no chance of new stock for Northern, then the 319s should be used on routes that can take 4 or 8 car units, for example, Macclesfeild and Stoke, Crewe and Manchester Airport stoppers, where the higher 100mph top speed would also come in handy, and displace the 323s onto the Bolton corridor services so they can be doubled up in the peaks.

Either that or you can lengthen the platforms at Manchester Oxford Road and Salford Crescent to 8x23m or 8x20m platforms and then I'll happliy have them formations.

Please note also that it would be very expensive to fit 319 units with SDO, and it would be stupid to try and use this at Salford Crescent as you would block the junction, the same at Oxford Road...