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Displaced 185s..

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Nym

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A Southport - Sheffield service? That may work well, given the lack of seaside services from Sheffield (our Blackpool services were taken many years ago, meaning a choice of either Cleethorpes or Scarborough nowadays). There's probably some Stockport - Wigan trade too, linking two sides of greater Manchester.

The important thing would be to tidy the muddle of routes around Manchester, so that there passengers could turn up without worrying too much about a timetable, rather than the random assortment of routes that overlap with each other at the moment.

I've no problem with Pacers at Manchester Airport though; most places in "the North" have Pacers, we're all in it together after all...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It'll be interesting to see whether more Sheffield services get pushed through Marple, once the TPE North services free up paths through Ashburys.

I take your point about small services being a "waste" of a path over the Stockport bottleneck, but the same could be said of the Chester service or the three coach EMUs on the Wilmslow service.

Theres 1tph to Bridlington and Scarbrough from Sheffeild...

The difference with the Chester service is that there isn't any other way to send it, short of closing the Metrolink network and sending it via Sale (not that I want that at all, but it would be nice)

And theres plenty of other wastes over the stockport viaduct, but they don't really have alternative, 2 coach DMUs to Cardiff, 4 coach DMUs to Bristol etc.
 
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YorkshireBear

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A Southport - Sheffield service? That may work well, given the lack of seaside services from Sheffield (our Blackpool services were taken many years ago, meaning a choice of either Cleethorpes or Scarborough nowadays). There's probably some Stockport - Wigan trade too, linking two sides of greater Manchester.

The important thing would be to tidy the muddle of routes around Manchester, so that there passengers could turn up without worrying too much about a timetable, rather than the random assortment of routes that overlap with each other at the moment.

I've no problem with Pacers at Manchester Airport though; most places in "the North" have Pacers, we're all in it together after all...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It'll be interesting to see whether more Sheffield services get pushed through Marple, once the TPE North services free up paths through Ashburys.

I take your point about small services being a "waste" of a path over the Stockport bottleneck, but the same could be said of the Chester service or the three coach EMUs on the Wilmslow service.

How dare you forget bridlington!

I think taking up some of the TPE north paths would be a good idea. Last many times ive gone to manchester it is just a crawl once you get near haxel grove, quite furstrating some times.
 

Nym

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Can only do that if you're terminating at Manchester or going onto Liverpool via Victoria (if we're on about EMT or TPE's services) but yeah, it is irritating...

And tbh, Bridlington is a lil bit of a dump really...
 

YorkshireBear

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Can only do that if you're terminating at Manchester or going onto Liverpool via Victoria (if we're on about EMT or TPE's services) but yeah, it is irritating...

And tbh, Bridlington is a lil bit of a dump really...

Well yes, i guess when you look at it like that it shouldnt be done. Myabe just make TPE south 6 cars and make ti worth while ;)

It certainly is :) i was being sarcastic i think its worth forgetting about.
 

Nym

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Anything extra should be sent via New Mills, and if the principal part of the LIV - NOR service is to Liverpool, run it via Victoria and Ashton Moss / Philips Park and New Mills...

Then the extras can terminate in Piccadilly..
 

YorkshireBear

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Right to get the EMT service into victoria im confused as to how it does it. IS it via ashburys west jnc Would that not delay the service ?
 

Nym

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With linespeed increases running via New Mills would be just as quick, up via Philips Park into Victoria (Past Sportcity) should take just as long, since it won't stop at Stockport or have to quue up for Piccadilly...
 

YorkshireBear

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With linespeed increases running via New Mills would be just as quick, up via Philips Park into Victoria (Past Sportcity) should take just as long, since it won't stop at Stockport or have to quue up for Piccadilly...

Fair play. Thanks for that, well i see thats probably how it should be done then really. Not neccesary to go via stockport at all.
 

ValleyLines142

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So 319s aren't good enough for people like you travelling to Blackpool, but you are happy for Scousers to have them?

I'm not saying they aren't 'good' enough or saying that I'm 'happy' for Liverpool services to have them, but I'm merely seeing it as this:

Liverpool:
Liverpool to Manchester services are currently operated by a mixture of Pacers and Sprinters and is a commuter route, purely for nipping here and there, which are DMUs and currently have a journey time of just under an hour (or just over if going to the Airport). Therefore, I think that Liverpudlians would happily accept an EMU on this service.

Blackpool:
Blackpool to Manchester services are seen as 'Express' services, they are operated by a company called 'First TransPENNINE EXPRESS and are operated by modern trains that are designed for cross-Pennine and Express services. By putting 319s on this route, it means that people who travel the one and a half hour journey are having their Express journey turned into a commuter journey, which isn't the intention. It's the same with Liverpool-Scarborough and Manchester - Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Hull, and I wouldn't be surprised if some div considers the option of replacing the entire TransPennine network with commuter trains, such as the 319s.

Basically, to me, the moral of the story is that 319s are not intended for Express services such as Blackpool routes.

This essentially is irrelevant because 319s are going to be operated by Northern, who do not operate the key Manchester to Blackpool services (except for the peak extensions from Hazel Grove, and I think the use of 180s on this route is excellent), so they won't be seen on Blackpool route I think. The 319s would be excellent on services such as Manchester Airport - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Salford and around central Manchester, just like they do in central London. However, as I say before, they are not designed for Express services. Although a little dramatic, it would effectively be like putting a 319 on a Manchester-London Virgin InterCity service.

However, the option of using 380s I feel is excellent, as this is an EMU design of the current 185 DMU so would make more sense.

I feel that the 319s have good use on commuter services and would be very popular, if they had a refurb into Northern livery and interior, they would be fab. Not for Express though.
 

sprinterguy

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A very well worded and argued post you've put together there.
Blackpool:
Blackpool to Manchester services are seen as 'Express' services, they are operated by a company called 'First TransPENNINE EXPRESS and are operated by modern trains that are designed for cross-Pennine and Express services. By putting 319s on this route, it means that people who travel the one and a half hour journey are having their Express journey turned into a commuter journey, which isn't the intention.
And before that some of the services on the Manchester to Preston route were operated by Virgin, and the rest operated by North West Trains/First North Western. As the constant merry-go-round of franchise re-arrangement has proven, the name on the side of the train doesn't really mean much.

If the journey time and the stopping pattern remains the same following electrification, then what's the difference?

This essentially is irrelevant because 319s are going to be operated by Northern, who do not operate the key Manchester to Blackpool services (except for the peak extensions from Hazel Grove, and I think the use of 180s on this route is excellent), so they won't be seen on Blackpool route I think.
We'll have to wait and see what happens with the TPE and Northern franchises after their current expiry date to start to get an idea of what is likely to happen with the Blackpool services, but it's not impossible by the time that the Bolton route is electrified that the TPE services will not be separate from the Northern ones.

As the Bolton route isn't going to be electrified until the end of 2016, then there's still likely to be a few years of 185 operation yet (until the end of the current TPE franchise at least), but once the wires are up to Blackpool then I doubt that the 319s are going to be split between two separate operators to run the route.

The 319s would be excellent on services such as Manchester Airport - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Salford and around central Manchester, just like they do in central London. However, as I say before, they are not designed for Express services. Although a little dramatic, it would effectively be like putting a 319 on a Manchester-London Virgin InterCity service.

I feel that the 319s have good use on commuter services and would be very popular, if they had a refurb into Northern livery and interior, they would be fab. Not for Express though.
The 319s currently operate, as is the essence of the Thameslink operation, from Bedford to Brighton, which is a heck of a long way, even if, granted, there are very few passengers, if any, who make the full journey.
 

pemma

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The Manchester to Southport service should have always stayed a Manchester Victoria based service in the first place

Southport has had a Piccadilly service for over 20 years now. To avoid having too many terminating services using platform 13 at Piccadilly the Southport service continued to Chester via Altrincham. Almost all services between Southport and Chester were booked for 150s and the majority of those were in Merseyrail livery.

Southport first got an Airport service a few years after the Airport station first opened, which led to two shorter journeys and Pacers being introduced on both the Chester-Manchester service and the Airport-Southport service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Right to get the EMT service into victoria im confused as to how it does it. IS it via ashburys west jnc Would that not delay the service ?

With linespeed increases running via New Mills would be just as quick, up via Philips Park into Victoria (Past Sportcity) should take just as long, since it won't stop at Stockport or have to quue up for Piccadilly...

I though Network Rail dismissed that proposal as they decided it's calling at Sheffield that slows down Liverpool-Norwich so they instead proposed Liverpool-Norwich continuing to go via Stockport but not via Sheffield and a new semi-fast to be introduced between Manchester and Sheffield via New Mills.
 

tbtc

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I'm not saying they aren't 'good' enough or saying that I'm 'happy' for Liverpool services to have them, but I'm merely seeing it as this:

Liverpool:
Liverpool to Manchester services are currently operated by a mixture of Pacers and Sprinters and is a commuter route, purely for nipping here and there, which are DMUs and currently have a journey time of just under an hour (or just over if going to the Airport). Therefore, I think that Liverpudlians would happily accept an EMU on this service.

Blackpool:
Blackpool to Manchester services are seen as 'Express' services, they are operated by a company called 'First TransPENNINE EXPRESS and are operated by modern trains that are designed for cross-Pennine and Express services. By putting 319s on this route, it means that people who travel the one and a half hour journey are having their Express journey turned into a commuter journey, which isn't the intention. It's the same with Liverpool-Scarborough and Manchester - Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Hull, and I wouldn't be surprised if some div considers the option of replacing the entire TransPennine network with commuter trains, such as the 319s.

Basically, to me, the moral of the story is that 319s are not intended for Express services such as Blackpool routes.

This essentially is irrelevant because 319s are going to be operated by Northern, who do not operate the key Manchester to Blackpool services (except for the peak extensions from Hazel Grove, and I think the use of 180s on this route is excellent), so they won't be seen on Blackpool route I think. The 319s would be excellent on services such as Manchester Airport - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Salford and around central Manchester, just like they do in central London. However, as I say before, they are not designed for Express services. Although a little dramatic, it would effectively be like putting a 319 on a Manchester-London Virgin InterCity service.

However, the option of using 380s I feel is excellent, as this is an EMU design of the current 185 DMU so would make more sense.

I feel that the 319s have good use on commuter services and would be very popular, if they had a refurb into Northern livery and interior, they would be fab. Not for Express though.

Your logic falls down slightly when you remember that the exact same 185s are used on the Liverpool - Manchester services too...

I'd also guess that the average journey time of passengers on the Blackpool services are no longer than the average journey time of passengers on the Liverpool services, bearing in mind that only a minority are doing the full Manchester - Blackpool journey (more journeys are only to/from Bolton/Preston etc).
 

pemma

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Your logic falls down slightly when you remember that the exact same 185s are used on the Liverpool - Manchester services too...

I'd also guess that the average journey time of passengers on the Blackpool services are no longer than the average journey time of passengers on the Liverpool services, bearing in mind that only a minority are doing the full Manchester - Blackpool journey (more journeys are only to/from Bolton/Preston etc).

When Buxton-Blackpool operated as a regular through service in the summer there were quite often hundreds of holidaymakers for Blackpool boarding at Stockport in a single hour. I saw the logic in that, to non-locals and older passengers changing at the smaller Stockport station was a lot easier than changing at Manchester Piccadilly. When the trains arrived at Manchester Piccadilly many passengers couldn't board even with a number of passengers alighting.

It's unfortunate that the passenger flows weren't properly taken in to consideration by First North Western, Network Rail nor Northern Rail. If they had been then Buxton to Blackpool would have been a 175 route under FNW and been semi-fast north of Piccadilly, while a Pacer/Sprinter could have run an all-stops services from Blackpool to the Airport. While Northern wouldn't have removed direct Blackpool services from Stockport at the expense of Victoria gaining them. Also a 185 operated by TransPennine Express would seem a more sensible idea on a Buxton-Blackpool service over an Airport-Blackpool service.
 

tbtc

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When Buxton-Blackpool operated as a regular through service in the summer there were quite often hundreds of holidaymakers for Blackpool boarding at Stockport in a single hour. I saw the logic in that, to non-locals and older passengers changing at the smaller Stockport station was a lot easier than changing at Manchester Piccadilly. When the trains arrived at Manchester Piccadilly many passengers couldn't board even with a number of passengers alighting.

It's unfortunate that the passenger flows weren't properly taken in to consideration by First North Western, Network Rail nor Northern Rail. If they had been then Buxton to Blackpool would have been a 175 route under FNW and been semi-fast north of Piccadilly, while a Pacer/Sprinter could have run an all-stops services from Blackpool to the Airport. While Northern wouldn't have removed direct Blackpool services from Stockport at the expense of Victoria gaining them. Also a 185 operated by TransPennine Express would seem a more sensible idea on a Buxton-Blackpool service over an Airport-Blackpool service.

You've made me realise that I've never seen suggestion of 185s on Buxton services (bearing in mind Pacers and 153s are too weak to climb the hill, a 185 would do nicely).
 

pemma

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You've made me realise that I've never seen suggestion of 185s on Buxton services (bearing in mind Pacers and 153s are too weak to climb the hill, a 185 would do nicely).

In one of the many threads about electrification or Pacer replacements I suggested if the 185s were refurbished with a higher density seating arrangement they'd suit the Buxton line or Calder Vale line. When I say higher density I mean more like an EMT 158 interior than a 150 interior.
 

tbtc

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In one of the many threads about electrification or Pacer replacements I suggested if the 185s were refurbished with a higher density seating arrangement they'd suit the Buxton line or Calder Vale line. When I say higher density I mean more like an EMT 158 interior than a 150 interior.

Apologies, I didn't remember that post.

The hills on the Calder Vale and Buxton lines are the kind of terrain to justify the 185s engines, not a flat stroll to the seaside.
 

Nym

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More enforcement to say keep them oop norf and use them on the Express Diagrams out of Manchester when the wires go up to Blackpool...

Even if TPE North is done, theres plenty of routes that justify a 185 round here.

Piccadilly - Buxton
Calder Vale
TPE South (As ever)
Liverpool - Norwich etc etc.

And then of course, we wouldn't need to move maintenance anywhere.
 

sprinterguy

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After reading tbtcs' and Nyms' musings on possible future frequencies on the Bolton route, it seems increasinly clear to me that the Buxton trains should run direct through to Blackpool, and should never have been curtailed in the first place.

As such, if the Transpennine and Northern franchises are merged then I think it would be a good idea to see 185s working from Buxton to Blackpool prior to electrification. I also think that the Caldervale line would be well suited to 185 operation, although of course releasing sufficient units to allow this to happen would be dependant on the likes of the Barrow service being taken over by 158s, 155s or 150s (freed up from the Caldervale), or even Transpennine North electrification.
 

Nym

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For me, if the 185s are taking on any extra routes post electification, it needs to be electrification of TPE North, the NW Triangle will only release enough for the Northern Hub plans...

Manchester - Blackpool over to electric releases 4 185s.
Manchester - Scotland about 8ish...

Initally... I'd have it restored to 2007 timetable levels, using the ex. scottish units, to Windermere and Barrow, so between 2013 and 2016 TPE would be able to run doubled up 185s on most routes through Bolton, as is needed, even off peak.

Come 2016 the services across the pennines increases to 6tph and the cord opens. Assuming no TPE N Electrification, the 185s, I'd have used on TPE N with the former blackpool pool running the extra 2tph Leeds - Manchester and the NW fleet back to 1tph Manchester Airport - Lancaster - (Windermere / Barrow), doubled up where possible between Preston and Airport.

If we do get TPE N Electrification, the demands on the 185 fleet would be:

8 TPE S
8 TPE NW (Windermere & Barrow) or 12 to have everything 6 car between PRE and MIA.

Then you could add in the Calder Vale services, the 2tph semi-fast services, extended either via the cord to Airport or up to Lancaster via Bolton in place of the Airport run, working on both to Airport thats 8 - 10 diagrams.

Tac on, oh I don't know, Piccadilly - Buxton (Piccadilly - Stockport - Hazel Grove - All Stations Buxton) that would proberbly get journey times under an hour so with a fast turnround could only take 2 diagrams, or run with three, double up to 2tph and thats five.

So thats.. 31 diagrams...

Add on Liverpool Norwich and that takes you to 45 and thats pretty much the whole fleet allocated.
 

tbtc

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Add on Liverpool Norwich

As Liverpool - Nottingham is going to be four coach 158s come December (due to the Northern 156s going to EMT to free up 158s from Matlock/ Skegg duties) a single 185 is going to be quite a capacity decrease between Liverpool and Nottingham
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
After reading tbtcs' and Nyms' musings on possible future frequencies on the Bolton route, it seems increasinly clear to me that the Buxton trains should run direct through to Blackpool, and should never have been curtailed in the first place.

As such, if the Transpennine and Northern franchises are merged then I think it would be a good idea to see 185s working from Buxton to Blackpool prior to electrification. I also think that the Caldervale line would be well suited to 185 operation, although of course releasing sufficient units to allow this to happen would be dependant on the likes of the Barrow service being taken over by 158s, 155s or 150s (freed up from the Caldervale), or even Transpennine North electrification.

Really Buxton would be a good candidate for electrification (south of Hazel Grove), especially given how restricted DMUs are on it.
 

Nym

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Not Liverpool Norwich then... use the spare 14 units to double more up on the calder vale and NW Routes, and between Doncaster and Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As Liverpool - Nottingham is going to be four coach 158s come December (due to the Northern 156s going to EMT to free up 158s from Matlock/ Skegg duties) a single 185 is going to be quite a capacity decrease between Liverpool and Nottingham
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Really Buxton would be a good candidate for electrification (south of Hazel Grove), especially given how restricted DMUs are on it.

All three routes to Chinley would be too IMO, would then be looking at more to Hazel Grove, perhaps services splitting at Hazel Grove for Chinley and Buxton?
 

tbtc

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All three routes to Chinley would be too IMO, would then be looking at more to Hazel Grove, perhaps services splitting at Hazel Grove for Chinley and Buxton?

I can see the point in doing Guide Bridge - Rose Hill (no brainer, half hourly EMUs).

But doing Hazel Grove - Chinley wouldn't "save" any DMUs, and doing Ashburys - Marple - Chinley would only "save" the one/two hour stoppers that don't extend to Sheffield.

The majority of services through Chinley would still be DMUs to Sheffield (even if you electrified all routes). But due to the way that the EMT/TPE services extend beyond Sheffield you'd have to keep running a majority DMUs on Manchester - Sheffield services, unless you waited for MML electrification/ were prepared to cut "through" services.

There are better candidates for electrification (e.g. Bolton - Southport).

Sheffield's problem is that the long distance nature of many routes that pass through it mean there are few "simple" candidates for electrification, unless you are doing a comprehensive electrification.
 

Nym

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Chinley would be as part of creating an interchange in SE 'Manchester' with the only diesels being the 5tp2h extending to Sheffeild... (That would become 3tph 1EMT, 1TPE, 1NT)

But yes, Southport would be a much better extension, provides that both Southports are sent via Bolton and via Atherton one to Kirby and one to Wallgate, terminating.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Southport has had a Piccadilly service for over 20 years now. To avoid having too many terminating services using platform 13 at Piccadilly the Southport service continued to Chester via Altrincham. Almost all services between Southport and Chester were booked for 150s and the majority of those were in Merseyrail livery.

Twenty years is nothing on the route timescale.....it is only from 1991 onwards. It still uses paths between Deansgate and Manchester Piccadilly that could be used for other services. For how many years did Manchester Victoria run services to Southport for before that? My memories do go back to the 1950s'.:roll: The paths used by the Southport to Manchester Airport services could be better utilised by other services. Franchise provision will be something to note when both the Northern Rail and the First TPE franchises come to to be reviewed in the 2014 period, when the Ordsall Chord provisions will surely be taken into account in the deliberations.

I know that we have discussed running services to bay platforms at Stalybridge to keep the through lines more open at Manchester Victoria on different threads upon this forum and with the advent of the Ordsall Chord extra services from West Yorkshire passing through Manchester Victoria to Manchester Airport, the provision of a Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge service is something to be considered.

I am well aware of the services that run from Southport to Chester via Altrincham and of the current Sunday provision of these as shown in the Northern Rail timetable 17. It is noticeable that this does not occur on Monday to Saturday.
 

tbtc

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Chinley would be as part of creating an interchange in SE 'Manchester' with the only diesels being the 5tp2h extending to Sheffeild... (That would become 3tph 1EMT, 1TPE, 1NT)

But yes, Southport would be a much better extension, provides that both Southports are sent via Bolton and via Atherton one to Kirby and one to Wallgate, terminating.

I know you've discussed your Chinley plan before - the "problem" I have is that most of the EMU services serving it would be additional services, it wouldn't replace many DMUs (three per two hours MF, hourly Sat).

Given the need to be rid of Pacers as soon as possible, I'd rather focus on where we can "simply" convert some DMU routes to EMU (hence the Guide Bridge - Rose Hill idea).

And, yes, you'd have to send all the Southport services via Bolton, which would mean more capacity on the Bolton trains than the Atherton ones (which is probably about right).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know that we have discussed running services to bay platforms at Stalybridge to keep the through lines more open at Manchester Victoria on different threads upon this forum

Does anyone know how much longer it'd take a train from Ashburys to Victoria (rather than Piccadilly)?

The problem that I have with extending various Victoria terminators to/from Staleybridge is that (post Ordsall Curve) it clogs up the TPE paths through Ashton - one of the reasons for diverting the TPE services to Victoria is to avoid the congestion through Guide Bridge.
 

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The best capacity for the Atherton Loop for the short platforms would proberbly be a shuttle between Wallgate and Victoira, but if the Kirby stays via Atherton, then all services to Wigan via Bolton can be run by an EMU, so with current service levels, 6EMU/hr and 2DMU (1 to Blackburn, 1 to Windermere / Barrow)
 

tbtc

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Like hourly Manchester-Windermere trains? ;)

If Windermere gets electrified, that'd be a great idea.

If Windermere doesn't get electrified then thats a waste of scarce DMUs between Manchester and Oxenholme (after the expense of electrifying the line through Bolton).
 

Nym

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Does anyone know how much longer it'd take a train from Ashburys to Victoria (rather than Piccadilly)?

The problem that I have with extending various Victoria terminators to/from Staleybridge is that (post Ordsall Curve) it clogs up the TPE paths through Ashton - one of the reasons for diverting the TPE services to Victoria is to avoid the congestion through Guide Bridge.

I'd say about 10 mins to Ashburys...

But going for what side of victoria the services will run through, those through the North Platforms would be better to run on to Rochdale or Stalybridge, and the South Platforms on to Ashbruys or Stalybridge, or Piccadilly with the line put back into place.

But the Southern Platforms should be accomadated by bays on the Exchange campus, with those that have to continue through being the services coming from Windsor Bridge Jcn, upto 8tph, 4tph electric and 4tph Diesel, sending the Electrics to Stalybridge and the Diesels to Rochdale would be the sensible thing to do IMO, and have everything from the Chat Moss terminate in some new bays, where there's space.
 

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I am well aware of the services that run from Southport to Chester via Altrincham and of the current Sunday provision of these as shown in the Northern Rail timetable 17. It is noticeable that this does not occur on Monday to Saturday.

I was talking about the through services that ran under British Rail/Regional Railways North West, not the Sunday Only ones that restarted in 2008. At the time I was referring to (early 1990s) I think 2 trains per day from Chester via Altrincham terminated at Manchester, 2 trains per day continued to Blackpool and the rest all went to Southport.
 
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