Displaced 185s..

[tbtc]

I'd say about 10 mins to Ashburys...

But going for what side of victoria the services will run through, those through the North Platforms would be better to run on to Rochdale or Stalybridge, and the South Platforms on to Ashbruys or Stalybridge, or Piccadilly with the line put back into place.

But the Southern Platforms should be accomadated by bays on the Exchange campus, with those that have to continue through being the services coming from Windsor Bridge Jcn, upto 8tph, 4tph electric and 4tph Diesel, sending the Electrics to Stalybridge and the Diesels to Rochdale would be the sensible thing to do IMO, and have everything from the Chat Moss terminate in some new bays, where there's space.

Either way, you'd end up spending a large sum of money for TPE North Airport services to run via Victoria (to avoid the slow run through Guide Bridge), but then introduce new Staleybridge services that would slow them down again.

 

[sprinterguy]

Really Buxton would be a good candidate for electrification (south of Hazel Grove), especially given how restricted DMUs are on it.

I absolutely entirely agree. I strongly believe that the Buxton branch should be electrified, given that there are already wires as far as Hazel Grove. I also think that there would be a good case for attracting additional patronage to the line by giving the Buxton branch a half hourly service throughout the day by extending the Hazel Grove terminator.

From what I can tell, an unwillingness for some people to use the service is because of the poor siting of some stations (Chapel station is up a pretty steep hill!) away from the towns they are purporting to serve, and the poor frequency, meaning that after enduring a long walk to the station, if they miss the train there isn't one for another hour. Double the frequency and you've solved half the problem.

 

[tbtc]

I absolutely entirely agree. I strongly believe that the Buxton branch should be electrified, given that there are already wires as far as Hazel Grove. I also think that there would be a good case for attracting additional patronage to the line by giving the Buxton branch a half hourly service throughout the day by extending the Hazel Grove terminator.

From what I can tell, an unwillingness for some people to use the service is because of the poor siting of some stations (Chapel station is up a pretty steep hill!) away from the towns they are purporting to serve, and the poor frequency, meaning that after enduring a long walk to the station, if they miss the train there isn't one for another hour. Double the frequency and you've solved half the problem.

Agreed. Plus a longer EMU should be more attractive than a 150 (what is the maximum platform length on the branch? does anyone know?)

 

[sprinterguy]

Agreed. Plus a longer EMU should be more attractive than a 150 (what is the maximum platform length on the branch? does anyone know?)

Pairs of 156s are certainly possible, I don't know whether the platforms are geared up to take more than that though.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Pairs of 156s are certainly possible, I don't know whether the platforms are geared up to take more than that though.

Well thats a 4 car 319 that will definitely fit in. I would of thought this would be higher up the list in aspirations because of the fact a lot of DMUs are banned. It kind of limits the line a little. Plus its not like there is a great road network from buxton to manchester, I kind of want to liken it to skipton from leeds. Where because of the frankly woeful road links the half hourly electrified railway was incredibly popular, and has only grown from strength to strength.

 

[pemma]

Pairs of 156s are certainly possible, I don't know whether the platforms are geared up to take more than that though.

4 x 23m carriages is definitely the limit. The 4 services to/from Woodsmoor that are 180 operated have to use local door operation due to the train exceeding the platform length.

The 4 car Sprinters used at peak time currently are rammed, while 2 car Sprinters at off peak times can have plenty of empty seats.

If 4 car EMUs were used they'll be the issue that they aren't big enough for peak time services, while they are too big for off-peak services, so like with the Bolton line 3 car EMUs that could run in single or double formation would work better.

However, there is still the issue of some platforms only being 4 carriage length. There are two solutions for this. One would be obvious platform extensions. The other would be a change in peak time pattern.

The current pattern in the evening from Piccadilly is:
16:21 Buxton ~
16:51 Buxton
16:58 Hazel Grove ~
17:23 Buxton *
17:23 Hazel Grove ~
17:52 Buxton
18:21 Buxton *

~ = Calls at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel
* = Omits stations south of Stockport

Instead you could have:
16:21 Buxton (all stops - 3 car EMU)
16:51 Buxton (limited stop - 6 car EMU)
16:58 Buxton (all stops - 3 car EMU)
17:23 Buxton (limited stop - 6 car EMU)
17:23 Buxton (all stops - 3 car EMU)
17:52 Buxton (limited stop - 6 car EMU)
18:21 Buxton (all stops - 3 car EMU)

 

[Nym]

Either way, you'd end up spending a large sum of money for TPE North Airport services to run via Victoria (to avoid the slow run through Guide Bridge), but then introduce new Staleybridge services that would slow them down again.

Stalybridge

And hence why I'd favour sending Bolton services toward Rochdale instead, and btw, I'm also in favour of four tracking to Stalybridge, but thats another thing...

 

[sprinterguy]

I like your thinking jcollins. I was thinking myself that 3 carriage EMUs, with the opportunity to double them up during peak time, would be a better idea than allocating 4-car units to the line indiscriminately. And of course, if the trains ran through to Blackpool, they would also fulfil the 6-carriage maximum through Bolton.

 

[Nym]

All comes back to the Lancashire EMU allocation being better off with 3x23m stock...

Can't we have some 380s, pwweeaaaasseeee, nice big bulk order while Thameslink make their sodding mind up! (For TPE as well, if LM want more stock for EMUs they can have cascaded 323s)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem that I have with extending various Victoria terminators to/from Stalybridge is that (post Ordsall Curve) it clogs up the TPE paths through Ashton - one of the reasons for diverting the TPE services to Victoria is to avoid the congestion through Guide Bridge.

For those not in "the know" what is the current path availability from Miles Platting Junction to Stalybridge?

 

[Nym]

Basically the same as any other two track railway, but some junction changes and four track wouldn't be at all hard to put back into place, depends on what is going to be sent Stalybridge way...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what I can tell, an unwillingness for some people to use the service is because of the poor siting of some stations (Chapel station is up a pretty steep hill!) away from the towns they are purporting to serve, and the poor frequency, meaning that after enduring a long walk to the station, if they miss the train there isn't one for another hour.

Quite a valid point about the siting problems on this line that are the result of the geographical nature of the terrain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Basically the same as any other two track railway, but some junction changes and four track wouldn't be at all hard to put back into place, depends on what is going to be sent Stalybridge way...

How would you see four tracking through Ashton under Lyne station with the land confinements that exist in this area through the town centre.

 

[Nym]

Still easyer to get to than Dent on the S&C...

 

[tbtc]

For those not in "the know" what is the current path availability from Miles Platting Junction to Stalybridge?

Basically the same as any other two track railway, but some junction changes and four track wouldn't be at all hard to put back into place, depends on what is going to be sent Stalybridge way...

Yup.

At the moment there's two/hour passenger services. AIUI the plans are for six/hour to run that way, when the TPE North services are diverted via Victoria (partly to avoid the slow section/ congestion at Guide Bridge, where they compete with the Glossop 323s and the Rose Hill Pacers for paths on flat junctions).

If the plan is to extend Chat Moss services this way (to free up dwell time at Victoria) then its just going to cause congestion again.

 

[sprinterguy]

Still easyer to get to than Dent on the S&C...

Absolutely, but that's a bit of an extreme case!

 

[Nym]

Quite a valid point about the siting problems on this line that are the result of the geographical nature of the terrain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How would you see four tracking through Ashton under Lyne station with the land confinements that exist in this area through the town centre.

The only real problem I can see is crossing the M66 and providing platforms at Ashton Under Lyne, as these would need to be on the outside of the current viaduct, provided proper provision is made so that stoppers are sent immediately behind fasts at Stalybridge, it could proberbly live without full 4 tracking, but putting back in some passing or freight loops could be quite handy.

And since TPE N Express services via Diggle will no longer be stopping at Stalybridge and that will be left to the semi fasts (that will either go to Piccadilly or call at Ashton U Lyne) then it would be very benifical to have the centre roads back in at Stalybridge.

I can personally invisage 10 to 12tph serving & passing Stalybridge, these being...

4tph Fast between Victoria and Huddersfeild, calling nowhere
and either...

2tph terminating at Stalybridge from Victoria
2tph from Huddersfeild passing through and calling, overtaken at Stalybridge by a fast service.

or...

4tph terminating at Stalybridge from Victoria, flighted behind the fasts in either direction, 10mins of catchup time provided for the fast, plenty to call at Ashton and get into Victoria's southern platforms, with the other 4tph going into the Northern platforms to go onwards to Bolton then Blackpool etc. (Note: this relys on terminating bays on the West of Victoria for services from the Chat Moss)
And 2tph Semi Fast Transpennine services to Leeds (Calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Greenfeild or Mosley, Huddersfeild etc) (From Piccadilly...)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Still easier to get to than Dent on the S&C...

There have been discussions on another thread about Leigh town centre where "hypothetical" proposals of a "long walk" to the town centre from a leisure centre station site were discussed. You have to be realistic about how people view the difficulties of accessing a railway station (such as those on the Buxton line) at the best of times. All it needs is a good overnight snowfall in the High Peak area to make a walk to the station at Chapel-en-le-Frith something akin to a leg on the ascent to Everest. Whilst admitting that the station at Whaley Bridge is situated in the middle of the town, next to the main road, not many other stations on the outlying part of the route share this ease of access.

 

[Nym]

If the plan is to extend Chat Moss services this way (to free up dwell time at Victoria) then its just going to cause congestion again.

Hence why I'd give the Chat Moss lines some bays on the Exchange Campus, the only through services through 3/4 at Victroria being TPE (4tph) and Calder Vale to Airport (2tph).
5/6 handling everything to Windsor Bridge (Currently also 6tph, possibly incresing to 8tph) 4tph of these sent on to Stalybridge (flighted behind fasts), and 2tph sent on to Rochdale. (The Diesels)
The 2tph TPE Semi Fasts go into Piccadilly, and the 1tph Super Slow Leeds via Brighouse and additional Toddy Curve service terminating in 5/6 or combining onto the Diesels though Atherton.

EDIT:
4tph from Bolton sent on to Stalybridge, electrified (Allows for Electric services from Blackpool, slows from Bolton to run onwards)
Everything from Atherton sent on Rochdale (Possibly forming the Calder Vale & Brighouse Super Slow & Toddy Curve services)
Any additionals from Bolton sent on to Rochdale.

With 6tph on each platform, allows a 4min dwell time and the 'slows' to stalybridge can be flighted to depart 1 or 2 mins after the fasts, fitting the Calder Vales through to get a 15min frequency over the curve and between Leeds and Manchester would mean some skewed timings, for example the departures off Platform 4 and 6 looking somthing like...

xx:00 Leeds Fast From Curve
--xx:02 Stalybridge From Bolton
xx:12 Leeds Fast From Liverpool
--xx:14 Stalybridge from Bolton
xx:16 Leeds via Calder Vale
--xx:18 Blackburn via Rochdale and Todmorden from Atherton
xx:30 Leeds Fast from Curve
--xx:32 Stalybridge from Bolton
xx:42 Leeds Fast from Liverpool
--xx:44 Stalybridge from Bolton
xx:46 Leeds via Calder Vale
--xx:48 Leeds via Brighouse and Rochdale from Atherton

Semi Fasts to Leeds from Piccadilly of course... Timed to arrive at Stalybridge just before the fasts and leave flighted behind them...

Would leave platforms 1 and 2 as being absolutely uselsss, but if Electrification does reach Stalybridge it allows all the services coming from Bolton to be electric when Lostock - Wigan - Southport gets done, some extra tph may be nessesarry, but the preference would be to have all electrics to Stalybridge at 4tph flighted behind the fasts, and then the Blackburn being sent onwards to Rochdale.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just thinking about terminal station capacity of recent options. Would it be possible to bring a four platform facility to Buxton, should new routes to there be forthcoming or would the cross-over referred to in the North-West RUS provide a working two-platform strategy be sufficient.

With regard to Southport, there is unused station capacity there that is currently available by the "bucketload".

 

[Nym]

Unlike Bolton that is screaming out for Platform 5/7 and some tram lines to Trafford Park via Royal Bolton (Bradford Road) and Bury via Moses Gate (With intermediate stops)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Just thinking about terminal station capacity of recent options. Would it be possible to bring a four platform facility to Buxton, should new routes to there be forthcoming or would the cross-over referred to in the North-West RUS provide a working two-platform strategy be sufficient.

With regard to Southport, there is unused station capacity there that is currently available by the "bucketload".

Bolton would be a lot better if p5 was reopened, and a new p6 was created, both for westbound services, with p3 / 4 being solely for eastbound traffic. The old lines behind p4 are currently a car park, and I don't think there is another one for Bolton station. Also, having the current through platforms as eastbound only would just make the hourly MCV-CLH trains even more of a headache for blocking traffic.

Southport is indeed OK ATM, two services and hour over three exclusive platforms (and one shared with MR if need be).

 

[Nym]

There is a prime place with a retail unit that is shutting down for Bolton Station to have a milti storey...

Here..
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Bol...vpsrc=6&hnear=Bolton,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=17
At the former world of fassion, tear it down and build a multi storey with £1/day ticketing for rail users or somthing of a smiliar token price.

We'd be better keeping the islands paired by direction for use, with 1/3 for Southbound services and 4/5(7) for northbound, the spare space left behind that platform to be used as a service yard for waste collection etc as it is now, but with a new lift provided to the overbridge, that will be extended to the world of fassion multistorey with a 2nd entrance and ticket machines at that end.

Stealing some of the Johnson Street car park will allow the lines to swing out a bit more, so that from the North Platform 1 will be acessable from Lostock and the line to Blackburn from Platform 4, moving crossing movments to the North of the station rather than the south, helping conflicting movments there, the only other issue then is terminating services access to platform 2, could be solved by some clever track work and a centre road put back in as a reversing siding...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst this thread is about the Class 185 units, I would ask for a clarification of exactly what the future plans are for the current Class 185 Ardwick site, when EMU services begin to run on the route to Scotland, as I appear to have heard two conflicting answers recently with regard to this matter. Is what I have heard factual in any way or just speculation?

 

[Class377/5]

Whilst this thread is about the Class 185 units, I would ask for a clarification of exactly what the future plans are for the current Class 185 Ardwick site, when EMU services begin to run on the route to Scotland, as I appear to have heard two conflicting answers recently with regard to this matter. Is what I have heard factual in any way or just speculation?

I believe that they 350/3 will be looked after at Ardwick with some OHLE put up for the units.

 

[Nym]

If that happens at Ardwick I get the feeling it will just be a depot expansion toward Ashton Old Road.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will the news announced yesterday have much implication on what has been discussed so far on this thread?

 

[pemma]

Will the news announced yesterday have much implication on what has been discussed so far on this thread?

Not a lot. It's still expected that 185s will indirectly replace Pacers but no indication of eaxctly how. However, it is now expected that re-engineered 365s will run the electric services on North TPE opposed to a new order, with 365s being replaced by IEP.

 

[tbtc]

Will the news announced yesterday have much implication on what has been discussed so far on this thread?

Not until we know exactly what is being electrified (e.g. Hull?), sadly

 

[Nym]

If it's NR's prefered option of Guide Bridge & Victoria - Leeds, Leeds - Castleford - York, Leeds - York, Leeds - Hull and Northerllerton - Middlesbrough, then I could say where I think the 185s should go...

16 will be needed on current routes to Cleethorpes, Barrow and Windermere, strengthening these in the core of their services will need another 8 units.
That realistically leaves us 20somthing units to play with...

Blackpool N - Scarbrough and the Calder Vale Semi Fasts are the obvious candidates, especially if the Calder Valley semi fasts are to be extended to Manchester Airport (puts them on the right side next to the depot, and can share stock with the Cleethorpes and Lakes services for interworking)
This would also mean that the depots can stay where they are, the Blackpool - Scarbrough would operate out of York depot, with changeovers at Preston or Leeds to get units to Ardwick. Cleethorpes would continue to run from Cleethorpes and Ardwick as is, as would the Lakes services.

If I'm thinking right...
Calder Valley Semi Fasts (1hr10m Leeds - Victoria, add another 40min to Airport, fast turnaround 2tph) needs 8 diagrams, 9 for slow turnarounds.
Blackpool North - Scarbrough, about 4hours end to end so at 1tph, thats another 8 diagrams, add in the shuttle every oppo half hour from Scarbrough to York and then you're at 10 diagrams.
It could also be sensible to divert the Cleethorpes TPE service to Liverpool via the CLC in place of the current service from Leeds.

51 units are available, so thats a sensible amount of 45 out per day.

So:
Calder Valley: 8 Diagrams
Scarbrough - Blackpool: 8 Diagrams
Cleethorpes - Airport / Liverpoool via CLC: 8 / 10 Diagrams
Airport / Victoria - Lakes: 8 Diagrams

That gives 34 diagrams currently.

If one wants to increase the capacity through the Hope Valley on TPE services, joining on a Hull portion to the service at Doncaster could be a viable option (this running via Goole), that would take up another 8 units and take us up to 42, the remainder strengthening peak diagrams.

Moving the Settle - Carlisle services over to 185 operation would also be a viable option (Using York based units, or extending up through Clitheroe and Hellefeild) would take up 3 to 4 units (3hrs end to end and 1tp2h)

Another option could be to combine up (assuming the Lakes services run to MIA) the Lakes and Southport services, splitting these at Bolton, that would take up about 4 or 5 units, and provide 6x23m capacity to Bolton all day on that route, would be very appreciated.

PS: Turbostars go bye bye to another operator in exchange for useful units for Northern, or just to Northern.

PPS: You may notice I'm choosing routes where 1st class provision would be sensible and would proberbly sell quite well, but I don't know what the state of differential speed limits is on the likes of the S&C, and Preston - Burnley - Toddy - Bradford etc. But doing both Blackpool - Scarbrough and Calder Semi Fasts to 185 operation would provide much better units between Halifax, Bradford and Leeds. 1st class would go down well in the likes of Todmorden and Hebden Bridge too...

 

[tbtc]

If it's NR's prefered option of Guide Bridge & Victoria - Leeds, Leeds - Castleford - York, Leeds - York, Leeds - Hull and Northerllerton - Middlesbrough, then I could say where I think the 185s should go

Is Castleford - York realistic? It has no passenger service over it at the moment (other than some overnight TPE diversions).