Disputes with Merseyrail not crediting refund and selling wrong ticket

[Jonfun]

JakeF has asserted that he believes he will end up rowing with the TPE conductor. starmill has asserted that he believes the TPE conductor is going to charge the wrong fare.

I don't understand why these assertions are being made. The journey has not yet been made. There is no intent to evade the fare, through no fault of his own JakeF has been sold a ticket which isn't valid at a certain time and is prepared to pay the excess fare due as per the NRCoC to make it valid. There is no evidence to say anything other than that the Conductor will say "thanks for coming to see me, take a seat and I'll sort it out for you on the way."

Do members on here have to immediately assume that because they've had a bad experience with one member of rail staff that everyone is out to get them? In the real world, most folk just want to get their passengers from A to B with minimal hassle.

 

[Deerfold]

JakeF has asserted that he believes he will end up rowing with the TPE conductor.

I don't see anywhere he's done that.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I would be fairly confident that there will be no issue with the conductor on TPE. The fact that the £12 minimum fare applies to the return portion too is not widely known, not trained nor briefed to staff, so I suspect will probably not be picked up on.

 

[Starmill]

I have some faith in TransPennine conductors - but not much. I have met and dealt with a lot of them, and their 'failure rate' is remarkably high. It is on that basis that I would be very wary of using the ticket in this way, and expecting it to go smoothly, which is exactly the sentiment JakeF is feeling I think.

You never know, kwvr45 might be JakeF's guard and the excess could be issued in seconds and everyone is happy.

 

[Merseysider]

I would like to agree that TPE conductors are great if you have a straightforward ticket; no possibility of problems there. I even had a smiley face drawn on an SVR along with the date from a guard who got a further £25 of my custom for tickets the next day.

However, I did a few months back get a guard who was highly adamant that a 7DS between two GM stations in addition to a Glazebrook-Llandudno SVR was invalid on the non-stop TPE between Manchester and Warrington on a Saturday.... It took five minutes before he huffed and walked away.

I don't "expect" to have an argument as a result of this irregularity. I just believe there is a higher than preferable chance, ie more than 0%, of things not going smoothly. As it happens there has been a change of plan and the ticket will be used on a different morning instead of Tuesday.

kwvr45, if you do see a £10.45 Mau-Birkenhead C ticket between 7 and 10 in the morning, it's me!

 

[gray1404]

I'd agree that the £12 rule before 10am also on the return journey is not widely known so you might not even end up getting charged it on the train. The fact that you do not need to pay an excess under these circumstances before you board is also worth remembering. It means you will not miss your train through being at the booking office. As long as you are able to pay the excess up to £12 (to make it up) when asked [and indeed if you are actally asked] then you are totally fine.

 

[Merseysider]

Merseyrail have sent £4 in RTVs "in view of the circumstances". Not going to argue that one any further.

Might be using the Mau-Bkc return ticket as far as Wigan on a TPE next week. I don't think I'll raise this one with ME unless there are any issues.

 

[gray1404]

£4 for the refund they owe you?

How did you get on with that fare that they wouldn't sell as a £12 minimum with your railcard?

 

[Loop & Link]

If Merseyrail *really* can't be bothered to train their ticketing staff properly, why don't they seek to withdraw from RSP and just put ticket machines selling Merseyrail tickets on each station, closing the ticket offices? Some mechanism for obtaining excesses at Lime St/Preston/Southport/Chester could deal with through journeys with multiple routes.

As they aren't a franchise, are they mandated to remain in RSP?

There seems absolutely no point in them having ticket offices on the network if they can't sell things properly beyond their very simple and small network.

Not going to take this personally but really?!

I was certainly thoroughly trained but you can't go over every single ticket in existence, I have stumbled across some types of ticket/rover etc just by accidents playing around on the Star.

Unless you are selling these tickets everyday then sometimes you forget what you have been trained on.

I got asked to do a bike reservation the other day for the first time, but forgot and had to ask for help as I had been shown in training but had forgotten because it had been so long (it's quite straightforward to be fair)

I actually pride myself in being able to sell any ticket the customer asks for (long distance/rovers/rangers/sleepers). If I'm unsure I'll phone another station.

So unless you actually you know what we are and aren't trained on, refrain from commenting that MerseyRail can't be bothered to train their staff.

Oh, and nice one for suggesting we should all lose our jobs by getting rid of ticket offices, must be fantastic to be able to make such judgements from an outsider.

 

[Merseysider]

Not going to take this personally but really?!

I was certainly thoroughly trained but you can't go over every single ticket in existence, I have stumbled across some types of ticket/rover etc just by accidents playing around on the Star.

Unless you are selling these tickets everyday then sometimes you forget what you have been trained on.

I got asked to do a bike reservation the other day for the first time, but forgot and had to ask for help as I had been shown in training but had forgotten because it had been so long (it's quite straightforward to be fair)

I actually pride myself in being able to sell any ticket the customer asks for (long distance/rovers/rangers/sleepers)

So unless you actually you know what we are and aren't trained on, refrain from commenting that MerseyRail can't be bothered to train their staff.

Oh, and nice one for suggesting we should all lose our jobs by getting rid of ticket offices, must be fantastic to be able to make such judgements from an outsider.

I'd love to know which station(s) you work at - I'll come to you for all my complex requests!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

£4 for the refund they owe you?

How did you get on with that fare that they wouldn't sell as a £12 minimum with your railcard?

I haven't got in touch with ME about that yet - if it happens again, or I return before 10am and I have issues then I will.

 

[gray1404]

That's great Jake. Yeah, if you don't have any issues when you travel just leave it.

Loop and Link - I too would gladly come to you for a more complicated ticket because it sounds like you have a positive and great "can do" attitude. The fact that you bother with this forum and have bothered to play around with the system thus finding new fares and rovers shows you have an interest too. Sadly, I have been told by certain Merseyrail staff that they can't do the ticket I am asking for, it doesn't exist or that I need to go to Lime Street and also that it is not possible on the system to enter via points or include/exclude certain TOCc (to get slower services with cheaper fares). All these statements were of course wrong and if I had have encountered someone with your positive mindset, I am sure I would have had a positive ticketing experience. I totally accept that Merseyrail will not issue stuff as often as many other operators and yes, people do forget things if they don't do it often. Maybe Merseyrail need to provide refresher training for this very reason. Personally, I am more then happy to bear with a booking office member of staff while they do something even if it takes time.

But yes, would gladly come to you if I am near your station. I also feel sorry for Merseyrail staff at single manned windows (i.e. a one person manned station) because if someone comes with something more complicated then a que can build up quickly. I also would hate anyone to miss their train! I have also tried visiting a certain seaside town at the top of the Northern Line (not my local station, I'm 15 minutes train ride away from this terminus) thinking it might help as they have more then one window (ok, open plan 'window') but sadly this is where I have also encountered problems.

 

[Clip]

I don't see anywhere he's done that.

This will help you

Therefore I am faced with the prospect of an argument with a TPE guard on Tuesday morning, which I really can't be a*sed having. I won't have time on Monday to sort it and MAN will probably be closed when I arrive tonight. Wunderbar.

 

[Deerfold]

This will help you

Nope - still can't see anywhere he's done that.

This is how the conversation has gone

JakeF has asserted that he believes he will end up rowing with the TPE conductor.

I don't see anywhere he's done that.

You've helpfully posted JakeF's original comment (which I had read):

Therefore I am faced with the prospect of an argument with a TPE guard on Tuesday morning, which I really can't be a*sed having. I won't have time on Monday to sort it and MAN will probably be closed when I arrive tonight. Wunderbar.

According to the OED at http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prospect prospect means:

The possibility or likelihood of some future event occurring

This does not sound to me as if JakeF is assuming that there will be a problem on the train - only saying there is a chance of one.

 

[Merseysider]

This will help you

Nowt like making assumptions about every journey and member of rail staff based on a few bad ones.

I can assure you I was not making a widespread assumption. I'd like to point out that by prospect, I was referring to the prospect of an argument. If I wished to indicate certainty, I would have used the word certainty.

 

[gray1404]

Have you made this journey yet? If so, was it ok? As I another poster said on here, and I agree, the chances of it being picked up on or then actioned (i.e. excessed) upon are so small. I would take a seat and just see what happens knowing that it will most likely be fine. The moment there is any suggestion that you should have paid £12, just offer the excess. If anyone likes a good moot point its you!!

 

[fishquinn]

A bit off topic but I have had a bad experience with Merseyrail ticket offices before too (Bidston). I asked for a Cheshire Day Ranger and the person in the ticket office (quite a rude man) was adamant there was no such thing. I was there for 5 minutes before he decided to look and found it no problem.

 

[gray1404]

Can I please ask you to complain to Merseyrail about this, and take it to Transport Focus if you are unhappy with their reply? It is important I think that they realise we will not stand for this. We want a full service National Rail ticket office out of Merseyrail. Not just singles and day returns to Liverpool.

If they reply saying that they have passed the feedback to the Manager for that station, write back saying you are not happy and you would like specific feedback from the Manager as to why you were treated the way you were and what actions have been taken to avoid a reoccurance.

 

[Merseysider]

Used the £10.45 return portion as far as Warrington Central this morning (0859 from Mauldeth Road, 0937 from Piccadilly).

Northern guard on the first service passed it quickly with a "cheers!". EMT guard on the second took a moment or two to think about it, scribbled the date on after checking I had the railcard and then went "ah right, okay". He was somewhat distracted though by a gentleman asking how to open the large window that doesn't open.

But do I still owe someone £1.55?

 

[bb21]

Donate it to charity if you feel guilty.

Otherwise keep it.

 

[fishquinn]

Can I please ask you to complain to Merseyrail about this, and take it to Transport Focus if you are unhappy with their reply? It is important I think that they realise we will not stand for this. We want a full service National Rail ticket office out of Merseyrail. Not just singles and day returns to Liverpool.

If they reply saying that they have passed the feedback to the Manager for that station, write back saying you are not happy and you would like specific feedback from the Manager as to why you were treated the way you were and what actions have been taken to avoid a reoccurance.

It was a while ago now (late January) so I won't bother with it. If it happens again I definitely will though.

 

[Merseysider]

Donate it to charity if you feel guilty.

Otherwise keep it.

Good idea.

It took about 5 minutes but I managed to persuade the Merseyrail staff at Lime St to issue something other than a Saveaway/single to Chester. The bloke didn't seem too happy to have to look something up but perhaps he just wanted to finish for the night. He came up with "If it's a Northern ticket you'll have to go upstairs for that mate" (You can sell tickets for any toc) and "How do you know it's £2, is it one of them online fares?" then "I can see an 11:12 but no 11:16" (are overtaken trains shown?) "Oh hang on, yeah" and upon being given two £1 RTVs, "oh are you paying with them are you?"

But to his credit I got what I asked for.

So question: I can use this to start at Man Piccadilly I believe, as long as MAN-MCO is on Northern. Is this correct?

 

[bb21]

Yes, non-reservable Northern services in theory.

In reality, ...

 

[gray1404]

Jake, again, complain to Merseyrail and to TF if they don't reply well. They seriously need to be put in line for giving customers hastle. They should be providing a full National Rail ticket office! "online fares" thats exactly the rubbish they told me when they didn't sell me a SN/LM Advance to Brighton at Southport. I've written back a month ago now saying I am unhappy with their reply and want my complaint reviewed by a Manager but they are yet to right back. I'm taking it to TF if I don't bear back by the end of the week.

It was a while ago now (late January) so I won't bother with it. If it happens again I definitely will though.

I would still encourage you to complain even now about it. We can bet he's been rude to other customer on a daily basis (none of whom will bother to complain) and until something is said nothing will be done about it; and nothing happy to get Merseyrail offering full National Rail ticket services. As you can see from this post and the experiences of myself and Jake, the problems with this TOC are ongoing.

 

[Merseysider]

Yes, non-reservable Northern services in theory.

In reality, ...

Out of interest, does that mean I could also theoretically go Manchester Victoria - Salford Crescent - Manchester Oxford Road - Lime Street all on Northern non-reservable trains? (I don't plan to.)

gray1404, I don't see reason to complain further; Merseyrail are running a borderline-acceptable service at most stations. It generally takes some convincing (and some time) for staff to issue something they're not familiar with, or have forgotten how to do, for example PlusBus tickets or advances or minimum fare tickets. But I've not yet missed a train because of an inability to sell what I requested.

It swings both ways.

I have had tickets issued by Merseyrail which should not, going by the book, have been issued. I'm not talking suppressed fares or abuse of priv or anything illegal, but if you know how to ask specifically enough for something, you will probably eventually get it.

 

[Loop & Link]

And I think you've hit the nail on the head there JakeF. I can promise you, that staff (or at least I will) do their best to find your ticket, but if you go to some ticket offices they aren't used to getting long distance tickets or plusbus etc, usually it's just return to Liverpool or Saveaway and that's it! It's just a case of sometimes you forget! I can assure everyone had been trained on how to sell a multitude of tickets but some have probably never had to do it since they trained! Simple as that!

 

[First class]

I find that the concerns about Merseyrail's ability to issue fairly straightforward and well know ticket types are genuine issues.

The industry has had some issue with Merseyrail in the past in relation to their ticketing strategies etc, and some other policy issues, which they have largely rectified (eventually) after being identified.

However, Merseyrail fails to have an effective training regime in place for its retail staff, and as mentioned above, whilst staff are generally taught reasonably well initially- Merseyrail makes no allowance to release staff say once every 6 months for a full day or two of retraining. This results in knowledge being lost by staff, and ultimately a large amount of sales commission is lost to other TOCs as a result.

As most rail staff do not share the same enthusiasm for ticketing as some forum members, they are obviously not going to spend 10-15 mins on a ticket they know absolutely nothing about.

It is a clear management issue- probably motivated by lack of cover available to release staff, but nevertheless an issue.

If anybody experiences refusals to issue certain products, or is incorrectly issued a ticket which should be straightforward, please email your concerns to Rail Settlement Plan (RSP) via ATOC.

The TSA requires TOCs to ensure their staff are able to complete transactions effectively, and a breach of the TSA can result in sanctions.

 

[najaB]

However, Merseyrail fails to have an effective training regime in place for its retail staff, and as mentioned above, whilst staff are generally taught reasonably well initially- Merseyrail makes no allowance to release staff say once every 6 months for a full day or two of retraining. This results in knowledge being lost by staff, and ultimately a large amount of sales commission is lost to other TOCs as a result.

Looking at it from the perspective of a 'learning professional' as they like to call us these days (trainer to you or me), if 99% of what they the ticketing staff are going to be asked for is 'a single to Liverpool' I totally understand why Merseyrail are reluctant to spend the time, effort and money retraining people to sell tickets that in all likelihood they are never going to sell.

If, as you suggest, they are losing money to other TOCs as a result then it would be worth it, but I'm not convinced that the loss is that great. If there is the revenue there, perhaps a solution would be for MR to have an internal helpdesk that staff can call to get can advice on how to sell the less common tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at it from the perspective of a 'learning professional' as they like to call us these days (trainer to you or me), if 99% of what they the ticketing staff are going to be asked for is 'a single to Liverpool' I totally understand why Merseyrail are reluctant to spend the time, effort and money retraining people to sell tickets that in all likelihood they are never going to sell.

Yes, but then they have to be honest about their capabilities. If their ticket offices are not trained on all National Rail products (or at least the ability to use the appropriate manuals to find them) then they should be clearly stating they are only selling internal Merseyrail tickets. But if they're doing that, what's the case for a manned ticket office at all?

 

[gray1404]

The fact is you should be able to go to any Merseyrail station and get any ticket you'd get from any ticket office on the National Rail Network. What bothers me the most is the panic, refusal or sometimes rudeness or totally made up excuse (that is an online only fare, the system can't bring up slower trains, you need to go to Lime Street for that). The fact your asking for something complex means you most likely have a higher level of knowledge then they maybe do.

In the good old days it used to be easier booking a ticket from Merseyrail when they had to phone another station for them to book the reservation on the system and then the local office just issued the reservation/advance ticket.

"It generally takes some convincing (and some time) for staff to issue something they're not familiar with, or have forgotten how to do, for example PlusBus TICKETS or advances or minimum fare tickets."

That is where lies the problem! Passengers should not be having to convince staff to do things that the office your at exists to sell. Think about our work lifes in all of our job roles, we may not be the most enthusiastic but regardless of that, you just do something because its your job. I'd be more then happy to help a member of staff do something and I'd like to think they might feel satisfaction in doing a ticket they don't normally do. (clearly that is not the normal thinking there on ME)

(Side point, member of staff in the booking office at Lime Street - the travel centre bit - told me that Merseyrail get exactly the same training.)

"Yes, but then they have to be honest about their capabilities. If their ticket offices are not trained on all National Rail products (or at least the ability to use the appropriate manuals to find them) then they should be clearly stating they are only selling internal Merseyrail tickets. But if they're doing that, what's the case for a manned ticket office at all?"

I totally agree, even if they are trained to start with but are then unable to issue certain tickets or products for whatever reason, this should be getting clearly stated that they are only issuing Merseyrail tickets (this would be annoying though if you turned up at ME i.e. wanting a Formby to London/Birmingham/Machester/Glasgow) on a walk-up basis). Bus, if the reality is that they are only going to be happy and able and in reality only selling Merseyrail tickets then, really, what is the need for a manned ticket office at all? (I agree with you on that one.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

if the reality is that they are only going to be happy and able and in reality only selling Merseyrail tickets then, really, what is the need for a manned ticket office at all? (I agree with you on that one.)

I should note that my preference would be the retention of a full ticket office service at all Merseyrail stations. However if that is not what is being provided, and there is no will to provide it, it's time for a rethink.