Disruption between London Paddington and Slough 16/17th Oct 2018

[talltim]

Nationalisation would have made this thread shorter at least, all of the posts about delay attribution would have been redundant*...

*except of course the arguments whether it was Hitachi or BR

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

*except of course the arguments whether it was Hitachi or BR

Assuming that BR wouldn't be making their own trains? #Make-Bombardier-BREL-Again

 

[Dr Hoo]

Nationalisation would have made this thread shorter at least, all of the posts about delay attribution would have been redundant*...

*except of course the arguments whether it was Hitachi or BR

What gives you that idea?
It was British Rail that invented delay attribution and the TRUST system that underpins it.

 

[43096]

Heathrow Express only running every 30 mins today and no plans to increase frequency according to a tweet they made earlier.

Repairs to the damaged OHLE are still not complete, so the down main is still blocked to electric traction. This primarily affects HEx as GWR services can run with HSTs and IEPs in diesel mode.

 

[silverfoxcc]

It's difficult to see why they'd want to, with no third-rail track or collector shoes any more ...?

Thaats what i thought as some 'expert' on Nick Ferraris LBC prog said they still do it!!!

 

[hwl]

An interesting theory. But, that somewhat assumes that the pantograph is incapable of keeping itself stowed without the use of straps and that it naturally wants to raise itself at speed. I'm not sure that's correct. One would assume that it's locked in place mechanically until deployed and the straps are there (if at all) to prevent damage should this locking system fail in transit.

What's more, the leading elbow is pretty well sheltered when in the stowed-position by the roof equipment. I think it's plausable that the head was secured down, causing the elbow to rise into the wire; but my money is still on driver-error or a mechanical failure as the root cause of the initial pan-up.

Pantograph probably set in locked down position before leaving factory. Driver the other evening selects pan up which releases it but the compressed air supply isn't strong enough to rip the tie restraining it thus the elbow winglets lift as the speed is built up.

 

[HH]

What gives you that idea?
It was British Rail that invented delay attribution and the TRUST system that underpins it.

Please don't confuse the good people with facts. They're much happier with their prejudices.

 

[Railperf]

Is it feasible that a fault with the overhead wiring could have caused the contact wire to drop so low that it got entangled with the stowed pantograph to the point where it almost ripped the pantograph off the roof of the train?

 

[FGW_DID]

I suppose that is feasible but not what happened.

 

[AM9]

Is it feasible that a fault with the overhead wiring could have caused the contact wire to drop so low that it got entangled with the stowed pantograph to the point where it almost ripped the pantograph off the roof of the train?

If it sagged that low then the preceding electric train (probably HEX), would almost certainly get in a tangle as it would slip off over the horns or trip out on the roof of any train.

 

[tsr]

Pantographs, in theory, should react in a failsafe manner (if not totally without damage) for certain types of failures - the mechanism holding the pantograph up to the contact wire should be disabled by an Automatic Dropping Device (ADD) if damage is detected.

If, however, no damage is detected which triggers the ADD system (in layman’s terms), then obviously some part of the pantograph could potentially remain in contact with the contact wire until such time as everything disintegrates. The ADD may not be able to detect if the elbow of the pantograph is touching the wire, although if it is still functioning, it may eventually detect something is wrong with the pantograph as a whole.

This can explain why the length of the damage is so severe. Until the train was being brought to a stand, it was probably damaging the OHLE. It would probably add considerable expense to fit the entirety of the pantograph arm with continuous detection for an anomalous position, but if everyone continues to use OHLE on very intensive routes with a high impact in case of catastrophic failure, it may be necessary. One solution may be to use computer vision and pattern recognition within the Train Management System, especially for those trains already equipped with pantograph cameras, to observe anything which does not correlate to the normal position. This may require considerable investment in terms of software and hardware upgrades, and you’d also need full mechanical isolation of the interface from the computer system, just in case a software or data transmission glitch prevented use of the overheads.

As for delay attribution, it’s key to remember that whilst a good service performance regime may always involve the attribution of delays to specific events - so everything can be traced and continuous improvements made to anything causing a poor service for passengers/freight - the level of resources employed by most of the different TOCs and NR routes to audit and dispute attributed delays would possibly be better used to actually deal with the problems, rather than argue about them. A centralised, independent Delay Investigation organisation which covers all events would be far preferable, perhaps able to be linked to an ombudsman or independent investigator which could also investigate the effects of the most severe delays on the customer, and whether the speed of resolution was satisfactory.

 

[talltim]

What gives you that idea?
It was British Rail that invented delay attribution and the TRUST system that underpins it.

Was it created because of impending privatisation or did it come before that with the creation of Railfreight, Intercity etc?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Was it created because of impending privatisation or did it come before that with the creation of Railfreight, Intercity etc?

I was involved in different aspects of performance management from a whole range of angles throughout my 40-year railway career. This included being on the receiving end of ‘please explains’ back in the pro-forma and carbon paper era. How much clerical effort was wasted to so little effect sifting through control logs, train registers, guards’ journals, chargemen’s tick sheets and what-have-you. At the very best these could only operate on a ‘post mortem’ basis. Very often one was seeking explanations from staff who were by then on rest days, annual leave, sick, etc., who (if they ever replied) had probably forgotten the incident anyway.
The gradual spread of automated train running information capture as power signalling spread meant that it became possible to identify disruption remotely whilst it was still happening. This meant that it was at last possible to try and get explanations (as well as the mere occurrence) in real time. For example, station overtime. A quick phone call can establish whether it was a connection hold, crew relief issue, door defect or whatever.
This sort of thing had always been the ‘Holy Grail’ of performance management and allowed more quantified development of performance improvement initiatives, delay ‘budgets’ for managers and so forth.
This approach didn’t really work in traditionally signalled areas, given the technology around in 1990-ish. However, the spread of power signalling and development of computer power finally made it realistic to seek to capture and attribute every delay (usually over three minutes). BR saw the benefits of this on its own merits but the fact that privatisation came along shortly afterwards has corrupted the narrative ever since.

 

[crewmeal]

So I guess we can see this debacle featured on the next series of 'Paddington 24/7' on Channel 5!

 

[tiptoptaff]

So I guess we can see this debacle featured on the next series of 'Paddington 24/7' on Channel 5!

Unlikely. As @JN114 said, as far as we're aware, they've stopped filming for the time being

 

[Megafuss]

So I guess we can see this debacle featured on the next series of 'Paddington 24/7' on Channel 5!

I am sure they could cobble together something using the PanCam footage...

 

[Deerfold]

Ah yes, I could have taken the 850 bus.

Or the more frequent 800.

Incidentally, when did Carousel withdraw their X80?

 

[Busaholic]

Nationwide ban for @scotrail170407 - it's just a joke so don't take it seriously.

You might get the impression from my given name on here that I'm more for road transport, but in fact I'd rather travel by train for any journey over a few miles, if the possibility exists, and would never choose coach travel over train, unless I really couldn't afford the train. Despite my preferences, and the fact I haven't made too many train journeys in recent years, I do seem to have a jinx on the service, as does my wife on her (usually) separate journeys. The common element in all this is that, almost exclusively, the 'jinxed' journey is the return one. It all started with a return from Preston to Euston on the evening following our wedding donkey's years ago (I say evening, but next day's dawn was coming up on arrival in London). Since then, passenger death, followed by line closed from Truro to Penzance because the signalman had gone home at the end of his shift, and no onward transport at 2 a.m., delays owing to IRA bomb on train ( an empty one, thankfully) which caused me to miss a job interview, a parcels train derailing at Plymouth at the buffers and taking down some of the roof, literally as my HST was pulling in to an adjoining platform, etc. I've never claimed a penny in Delay Repay, by the way, though it didn't exist when most of these occurred.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Depending which coach you're in, you can certainly hear the pans clonking around.

Wouldn't that be the vacuum circuit breakers?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Pantograph probably set in locked down position before leaving factory. Driver the other evening selects pan up which releases it but the compressed air supply isn't strong enough to rip the tie restraining it thus the elbow winglets lift as the speed is built up.

Is it also possible that a software error caused an uncommanded pantograph activation?

 

[Mag_seven]

Was the test train supposed to raise the panto on the move or was it supposed to remain on diesel throughout?

 

[FGW_DID]

Was the test train supposed to raise the panto on the move or was it supposed to remain on diesel throughout?

This was posted earlier:

1) The pantograph was raised, in a location not authorised for high speed changeover.

So presumably even if it was supposed to raise the pan at some stage, it wouldn’t be there and not at that speed!

 

[JN114]

Readers interesting in the number of headspans versus portals between Paddington and Reading, can count them up for themselves in the following video (circa March 2018) if they like....

Enjoy.

145 headspans supporting wiring over the route the train took (Plat 1, Line 2, Down Main). I was well over 500 structures total when I gave up counting!

 

[greyman42]

Sir, I see your pedantry and raise you: Did the purchase of BREL by Bombarider extinguish any ongoing liability?

BREL was purchased by ABB/Trafalgar House; ABB bought out Trafalgar House for £1; Bombardier then purchased the company from ABB.

 

[deltic08]

What gives you that idea?
It was British Rail that invented delay attribution and the TRUST system that underpins it.

In preparation for privatisation

 

[HH]

In preparation for privatisation

But the system and the idea were BR's - it was already in place.

 

[Dr Hoo]

But the system and the idea were BR's - it was already in place.

Quite, noting the background that I explained at some length in Post #193.
But not everybody was there at the time and some prefer to hold on to misinformation and conspiracy theories.

 

[flash]

Do Eurostars still drop and lift pans on the move now?
I thought that since St Pancras opened it was a thing of the past

Pans are dropped and raised as needed... but definitely at pan changes at Westenhanger, Calais, North & South of Lille, Gonesse (Paris), Halle (Brussels), there are no restrictions regarding location or speed. The changes are needed to change the power draw limits and pan height settings (and to close the fire doors in Eurotunnel)

 

[Jimini]

Pans are dropped and raised as needed... but definitely at pan changes at Westenhanger, Calais, North & South of Lille, Gonesse (Paris), Halle (Brussels), there are no restrictions regarding location or speed. The changes are needed to change the power draw limits and pan height settings (and to close the fire doors in Eurotunnel)

Pardon my ignorance -- why the change at Westenhanger? Cheers.

 

[AlexNL]

Pardon my ignorance -- why the change at Westenhanger? Cheers.

Changeover from HS1 catenary height to the higher Eurotunnel catenary height.