Disruptive Passengers Procedure.

[Krokodil]

Those metal bardics hurt

Back when Liverpool bus conductors (who were mostly female) lost their wooden ticket racks in favour of machines, the question was "now what are we supposed to do with drunks?"

 

[Re 4/4]

A drunken abusive passenger assaulted the guard and threatened them and other passengers with needles

That sounds like a threat of assault with an offensive weapon, and would justify a certain amount of self-defence by other passengers. Any 'big guy' in this situation would be in their rights to act.

 

[DJ_K666]

Ultimately it's up to the guard, but control and managers will be unhappy if the delay minutes accumulate. This type of guard will normally have previous form for getting into bother with customers over tickets. If it was a genuine one-off from them, other than writing a report, nobody would be too concerned.

Wasting your time with BTP, and no traincrew should even suggest that they'll be met at the next station or otherwise mentioned/threatened - as they won't turn up, and you end up looking like a prat.

Less so in the south of the UK, but I've known other passengers take it upon themselves to remove the disruptive passengers with some force, quite quickly, once there's any indication that there's going to be a delay!

The 'Big Man' of Edinburgh Park springs to mind here. Though to be fair the guy he threw off was being a bit of a so-and-so, to put it in forum-acceptable language

Funnily enough I had a conflict resolution course today. It's worth saying that if they're regulars and they're well known, the consequences will catch up to them anyway. It's not worth causing conflict for the sake of a few tickets. That said, if the accused are already being aggressive or the guard believes that someone's safety could be at risk, that'll be a different story

It also depends on where the train is because if its out in the sticks then it'll be difficult to just refuse to move the train as you won't get BTP or revenue protection, and it could make the accused become aggressive, not to mention everyone else onboard. There's also the fact that delay minutes from the incident would cost more to the TOC than the loss of revenue in the ticket.

It's easier for BTP or revenue protection to join the service at larger stations or near to the TOCs traincrew depot if the guard needs assistance with tickets, and it's common practice on those services

Regarding Conflict Avoidance courses. I take the view that to avoid a conflict, one must know how to create a conflict. That way you can spot the warning signs of something brewing earlier and take avoidance/deflecting/de-escalation action sooner as appropriate and according to your employer's policy.

 

[apbj]

Yesterday morning I had the misfortune to be on a packed service where the guard was dealing with what was described as disruptive passengers.

3 individuals were sat in first class seemingly without tickets.

The guard decided that the train would go nowhere until the individuals left the train.

After some minutes the driver came to the carriage and suggested to the guard that there were hundreds of innocent passengers being delayed as a result.
Maybe we could proceed and have BTP meet the train at the next station.

This was finally decided as the best course of action and on announcing this to the carriage the individuals left the train.

How is it decided what is the correct course of action to deal with this sort of situation?

I said to the guard that the delay had caused me to miss my connection but that I did not envy their situation.

That describes a similar situation at Bodmin on Saturday.

Oddly, the train manager was quite coy about what had caused the extended station stop, describing it only as a “situation”. The driver left his cab and went back and returned and off we went.

Nobody left the train ‍♂️

 

[BanburyBlue]

We had it today. I was on the 16.45 Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone. There was a ticket check in progress. We got as far as Leamington Spa - frankly I was engrossed in my book and not really paying attention. I suddenly realised we hadn’t moved, and when I looked down the other end of the carriage, there were a couple of security guys and a couple of Chiltern railway staff surrounding one of the tables. They were talking on phones/radios, on and off the train. We sat there for 20 minutes with no announcements. One or two of the passengers nearby were kicking off, along the lines of “why do we have to wait, I’ll start a f***ing whip round to pay for his f***ing ticket”.

Eventually there was an announcement, saying we were delayed because of a disruptive passenger. We then moved off with said disruptive passenger still on board. By this time we were overtaken by a Southampton bound freight, and the 17.11 Birmingham Snow Hill was up our rear bumper. As we were approaching Banbury, it was announced that the train would no longer call at Bicester North or High Wycombe, could passengers for Bicester and High Wycombe please leave the train and catch the following 17.11 from Snow Hill. You can imagine how that went down on the train, with some calls and sarcastic clapping aimed at disruptive passenger. The platform at Banbury was busy, with passengers for Bicester and High Wycombe, added to by all the passengers kicked off our train. The 17.11 was short formed, with only 3 coaches, so I bet it was fun on there!

I was assuming that the wait at Leamington was to see if they could get the police there, and was expecting the police to be waiting on the platform at Banbury. But no, and the train continued its journey with disruptive passenger on board.

Bizarrely, there were 2 BTP officers upstairs near the ticket gates at Banbury.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The 'Big Man' of Edinburgh Park springs to mind here. Though to be fair the guy he threw off was being a bit of a so-and-so, to put it in forum-acceptable language


Regarding Conflict Avoidance courses. I take the view that to avoid a conflict, one must know how to create a conflict. That way you can spot the warning signs of something brewing earlier and take avoidance/deflecting/de-escalation action sooner as appropriate and according to your employer's policy.

There's an important typo you've made.

The railway does NOT offer conflict avoidance training - because, it is frankly, often completely unavoidable, unless you simply don't carry out your duties. Even then, trouble often finds it's way to staff who are simply minding their own business and doing nothing at all to warrant the behaviour that arises.

Some roles are, by their nature, always going to encounter conflict, no matter how polite or professional they are, particularly revenue protection or Byelaw enforcement, security etc.


They offer conflict management or conflict resolution.

 

[DJ_K666]

There's an important typo you've made.

The railway does NOT offer conflict avoidance training - because, it is frankly, often completely unavoidable, unless you simply don't carry out your duties. Even then, trouble often finds it's way to staff who are simply minding their own business and doing nothing at all to warrant the behaviour that arises.

Some roles are, by their nature, always going to encounter conflict, no matter how polite or professional they are, particularly revenue protection or Byelaw enforcement, security etc.


They offer conflict management or conflict resolution.

I work on the buses and Conflict Avoidance was a CPC* course we did.

I usually resolve conflicts by refusing to drive the bus until the offending individual kindly 'does one' if you get my drift. I don't use any flowery language, however.

As to what we call it, it usually amounts to the same thing, ie a load of management waffle in strange made up language that makes people want to roast said manager alive. For me, that starts with the use of the term 'moving forward'

*Also known as 'A waste of b[censored]y time'

 

[al78]

Back in the day, evection at Faygate was a popular option. Next train is on Monday. Bye!

At least it is possible to walk to Horsham or Crawley from there, admittedly it would take close to an hour at least in either direction.

 

[Chriso]

That is disgraceful . What an absolute cess pitt this country has become. I’m surprised the red carpet wasn’t rolled out for the c**t at Marylebone.

 

[swrcommguard]

I would agree the threat of BTP meeting them at the next stop (knowing the doors will be locked ) is quite effective but the most used one I’ve seen on SWR is “if there is a off duty police officer on board please can they assist the guard in Coach X”

There very often are off-duty police officers onboard SWR peak morning and peak evening services.

 

[island]

I can't help but think that staffing cuts (both on trains and in shops) haven't helped there

Staffing levels on Southeastern trains and stations have not changed materially.

The three Dartford lines are paying optional.

 

[Chriso]

I was on the Eltham line on Wednesday and 2 x DFT ticket surveyers got on at Lewisham and proceeded to check from the rear of the train accompanied by a member of South Eastern staff. I was shocked at how many people walked to the front and joked about not getting caught. They reached the front carriage by Falconwood but all evaders had got off by then.

The shocking thing is most of the stations are gated but only have one side operational leaning the other gateline on the other platform fully open rendering the whole thing utterly pointless . SET have really improved gateline staffing in Kent but with the exception of London Terminals only seem to bother properly staffing Lewisham, Woolwich Arsenal , Orpington and Dartford gatelines in Greater London with the other gatelines part working or left open . On line checks are non existent in my experience.

 

[island]

properly staffing Lewisham, Woolwich Arsenal

The platform 1 gateline at Lewisham is rarely staffed outside of peak, and at Woolwich Arsenal the wide gate of the DLR gateline is often left open.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Southeastern staffing gatelines within London isn't really a resource issue, they could staff them all day long easily enough.

The issue is that some of these stations are so problematic in terms of risk of serious violence / abuse that you need some serious support, up to and including, armed police or specialist public order units. You need that level of support persistently for a fairly lengthy period of time to get any real permanent behaviour changes - and the resources and finances simply aren't available for that given competing priorities across London.

I suppose the only saving grace is that most everyday, honest, customers using these stations aren't experiencing the same level of risk - simply because they're not engaging with the low lives carrying the weapons and happy to use their fists. Although some of these stations are frankly, not places I'd want to visit willingly at the moment.

 

[island]

Southeastern staffing gatelines within London isn't really a resource issue, they could staff them all day long easily enough.

The issue is that some of these stations are so problematic in terms of risk of serious violence / abuse that you need some serious support, up to and including, armed police or specialist public order units. You need that level of support persistently for a fairly lengthy period of time to get any real permanent behaviour changes - and the resources and finances simply aren't available for that given competing priorities across London.

Thanks for demonstrating you know next to nothing about Southeastern stations.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Thanks for demonstrating you know next to nothing about Southeastern stations.

That information originates from BTP, Southeastern and TfL.

There are business cases being constructed specifically to address the issues raised.

However, I'm inclined to agree with the view - they are some of the worst stations in the UK for crime.

 

[Chriso]

The platform 1 gateline at Lewisham is rarely staffed outside of peak, and at Woolwich Arsenal the wide gate of the DLR gateline is often left open.

This has all recently changed with the new security contract. I now regularly see the platform 1 gateline operational at Lewisham. Woolwich Arsenal the last few times have been staffed but I don’t visit that often so may well be wrong.

Either way it still leaves most of the network effectively free for people travelling outside of zone 1. In the same way as most of the Overground used to be.

 

[ainsworth74]

That information originates from BTP, Southeastern and TfL.

Is this information available publicly or is internal to those organisations?

 

[43066]

Southeastern staffing gatelines within London isn't really a resource issue, they could staff them all day long easily enough.

The issue is that some of these stations are so problematic in terms of risk of serious violence / abuse that you need some serious support, up to and including, armed police or specialist public order units. You need that level of support persistently for a fairly lengthy period of time to get any real permanent behaviour changes - and the resources and finances simply aren't available for that given competing priorities across London.

I suppose the only saving grace is that most everyday, honest, customers using these stations aren't experiencing the same level of risk - simply because they're not engaging with the low lives carrying the weapons and happy to use their fists. Although some of these stations are frankly, not places I'd want to visit willingly at the moment.

It has its fair share of issues but, as someone who uses Southeastern daily, I don’t recognise this description at all. Do you use the network regularly?

That information originates from BTP, Southeastern and TfL.

Do you have a link?

 

[Krokodil]

Staffing levels on Southeastern trains and stations have not changed materially.

Presumably the proportion of DOO trains has grown over the last few decades.

 

[43066]

Presumably the proportion of DOO trains has grown over the last few decades.

Not since the early 90s.

EDIT: although the Southeastern HS1 services would have slightly increased the proportion when introduced circa. 2009 I suppose.

 

[island]

Woolwich Arsenal the last few times have been staffed but I don’t visit that often so may well be wrong.

The Southeastern gateline there is usually staffed but the two DLR gatelines often aren’t. Any gateline can be accessed from any platform so unless Southeastern put a block on between their platforms and the DLR part of the station, it’s a gaping hole.

Either way it still leaves most of the network effectively free for people travelling outside of zone 1.

Indeed.

 

[Chriso]

The Southeastern gateline there is usually staffed but the two DLR gatelines often aren’t. Any gateline can be accessed from any platform so unless Southeastern put a block on between their platforms and the DLR part of the station, it’s a gaping hole.


Indeed.

Your are totally right Island. Disappointing it’s TFL letting their guard down in this case

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Is this information available publicly or is internal to those organisations?

Internally, although you may be able to FOI some of it, although as it relates to law enforcement and policing, I would suspect some redaction/refusal in parts.

And no, I have no reason to use those Southeastern metro services, although I do regularly use HS1, but that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[Bikeman78]

Presumably the proportion of DOO trains has grown over the last few decades.

Revenue protection on the EPBs would have been close to zero because they did not have gangways.

 

[JetStream]

I think it depends on the scenario.

If there's a safety risk/risk to passengers of moving the train with said people on board, I'd be quite happy to delay the train, especially if at a manned station.

 

[yorksrob]

Revenue protection on the EPBs would have been close to zero because they did not have gangways.

I did see someone get on my carriage at I think Ladywell once, check tickets then get out at Lewisham, presumably to check them on the next carriage !