Diversion of Snow Hill Line services to New St. on weekends

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TSR :D

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I was reading about Snow Hill Line and its history. Few decades ago, Snow Hill and Moor St. rail stations weren't popular, so trains were diverted to New St. Obviously this has stopped now.

I was wondering if there was specific reasons as to why it stopped diverting?

I'd imagine it would be possible to divert these now as all other rail stations bar to Bordesley are already served by either Chiltern or Metro.

On weekends, the capacity at New St. is reduced, I'd guess there's enough space to let ~4 tph in. I don't think there enough capacity for Chiltern but it's a bonus if there is because Moor St. (and Snow Hill as once Metro gets extended) can be closed on weekends to save costs.
 
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30907

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Without digging out old timetables to check, Sunday trains into New Street vice Moor St started when the Snow Hill route closed and there were only a few locals on the GW route (and the handful of Intercitys using New Street anyway). Can't see them wanting to put them back, not to mention that there is a service north of Snow Hill now.
 

Bertie the bus

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On weekends, the capacity at New St. is reduced, I'd guess there's enough space to let ~4 tph in. I don't think there enough capacity for Chiltern but it's a bonus if there is because Moor St. (and Snow Hill as once Metro gets extended) can be closed on weekends to save costs.

Eh? How would closing Snow Hill and Moor St at weekends save a worthwhile amount of money? A couple of staff and a bit of electricity if they turn the lights off.

How do you propose to divert the LM services into New St? Galton Junction is a flat junction on the busy Brum - Wolverhampton line and couldn't possibly cope with an additional 6 tph in each direction.

How would any of it benefit anybody?
 

Cherry_Picker

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It's a pointless exercise. If you are going into the city centre from the Stourbridge side then it's (usually) faster going into Snow Hill or Moor Street just because they aren't bottlenecks in the way New Street is. If you absolutely have to go to Birmingham New Street then there are umpteen connections an hour at Smethwick Galton Bridge.

Worth mentioning there was 1tph from Stourbridge to New Street right up until the Central Trains - London Midland franchise handover.
 

hello

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saturday the 7th of feb there was a couple of chiltern units couplrd together running through new st, at about half 6ish
 

Hadders

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I don't think it's wise to close Snow Hill and divert services to New Street at weekends.

I can understand the reasoning behind it and why it would have made sense in the past when rail travel was in decline but we are in a period of sustained growth and at some point we'd only have to move the services back.

Also, changing the terminus depending on the day of the week makes it confusing for passengers - if we want people to use public transport it needs to be simple and straightforward. The difference between New Street and Snow Hill is insignificant to those of us on here who have a pretty high knowledge of how the network works but you have to consider that most people find train travel baffling (and I'm not just talking about tickets). We need to keep things relatively simple.
 

Smethwickian

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Diversion of the Snow Hill line services via New Street would withdraw National Rail services from Jewellery Quarter and The Hawthorns on those days and drastically reduce the service at Smethwick Galton Bridge, the latter a reasonably busy station, park-and-ride site and useful interchange, even on Sundays.
 

TSR :D

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I don't think it's wise to close Snow Hill and divert services to New Street at weekends.

I can understand the reasoning behind it and why it would have made sense in the past when rail travel was in decline but we are in a period of sustained growth and at some point we'd only have to move the services back.

Also, changing the terminus depending on the day of the week makes it confusing for passengers - if we want people to use public transport it needs to be simple and straightforward. The difference between New Street and Snow Hill is insignificant to those of us on here who have a pretty high knowledge of how the network works but you have to consider that most people find train travel baffling (and I'm not just talking about tickets). We need to keep things relatively simple.

I suggested this purely for leisure travellers which would be most prominent on weekends. I would suspect that most leisure travellers would be happy to interchange at New St. as it provides more connections, and most commuters on weekdays would be happy to go to any of three stations in Birmingham city centre.

I understand how it can be confusing, but it would be solved if there were more displays clearly stating that the stations will be closed on weekends, sort of similar to London Underground where some of stations are closed for weekends/rebuilding.

Diversion of the Snow Hill line services via New Street would withdraw National Rail services from Jewellery Quarter and The Hawthorns on those days and drastically reduce the service at Smethwick Galton Bridge, the latter a reasonably busy station, park-and-ride site and useful interchange, even on Sundays.

The two stations you mentioned are well serviced by Metro. They could go to New St. (Once the line is extended) for interchange with trains to Stourbridge or elsewhere.

Eh? How would closing Snow Hill and Moor St at weekends save a worthwhile amount of money? A couple of staff and a bit of electricity if they turn the lights off.

How do you propose to divert the LM services into New St? Galton Junction is a flat junction on the busy Brum - Wolverhampton line and couldn't possibly cope with an additional 6 tph in each direction.

How would any of it benefit anybody?

I estimate the money saved from closure of Snow Hill, and other two stations to west of Snow Hill every weekend would be enough to employ two or three full time staff or one driver.

I purpose to use Galton junction to divert these services, I mistakenly thought Galton Junction was a fly under junction but now I realise it might not be possible considering it is a flat junction.
 

sprinterguy

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I suggested this purely for leisure travellers which would be most prominent on weekends. I would suspect that most leisure travellers would be happy to interchange at New St. as it provides more connections, and most commuters on weekdays would be happy to go to any of three stations in Birmingham city centre.

The two stations you mentioned are well serviced by Metro. They could go to New St. (Once the line is extended) for interchange with trains to Stourbridge or elsewhere.
The stations at Bordesley and The Hawthorns are in some ways (especially Bordesley) of greatest utility at the weekends as they cater for large crowds of football fans when the local teams are playing at home. You are not going to fit those sorts of numbers on the Midland Metro, or on the local bus services in the case of Bordesley. With a direct heavy rail service, fans travel to these games from a range of destinations across the West Midlands.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On weekends, the capacity at New St. is reduced, I'd guess there's enough space to let ~4 tph in. I don't think there enough capacity for Chiltern but it's a bonus if there is because Moor St. (and Snow Hill as once Metro gets extended) can be closed on weekends to save costs.
The frequency of services through New Street and over the Snow Hill lines is little different on a Saturday than it is on a weekday, barring a few local peak extras. What you are suggesting is to push the equivalent of a second Cross-City line frequency through New Street, and to introduce an extra six trains per hour between New Street and Galton Junction over the already congested two-track section from Birmingham to Wolverhampton. Which is before you consider the terminating Chiltern service, consisting of two London trains an hour and a two-hourly “local” to Leamington. New Street station is not set up to cope with large numbers of terminating trains with extended layovers, and half of the Chiltern services make use of the handily (and recently) reconnected bay platforms at Moor Street.

The Snow Hill services at present have a dedicated separate route across the city, with an essentially dedicated terminus (at Snow Hill, and to a lesser extent Moor Street where the bays are available) that helps to maintain the robustness of the service for both London Midland and Chiltern. Diverting these services into New Street would be detrimental to the reliability of both these and the existing services that use New Street.
 

Smethwickian

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The two stations you mentioned are well serviced by Metro. They could go to New St. (Once the line is extended) for interchange with trains to Stourbridge or elsewhere.

But you ignore Smethwick Galton Bridge, which as I have pointed out is a popular station and would lose the majority of its services on Sunday with your proposal. You do know it's not the same as the old Smethwick West and that there's no platform on the junction chord, don't you?

The Hawthorns is in a patch of Smethwick where bus services have been reduced by the diversion of the 53 bus. The Metro does not offer an alternative towards the south west. Why would anyone want to go two miles into Birmingham to go all the way out again?

Jewellery Quarter station also serves parts of Hockley and is used even on Sundays for shopping because of visitors to the quarter's many - well, believe it or not - jewellery traders.

As someone who travels through New Street almost every day and even at 2000 and 2100 when you would imagine the station is quieter, still find myself sitting on trains on the approach 'waiting for a platform', I am baffled where you think the capacity for your diversion is to be found.
 

rdeez

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... As someone who travels through New Street almost every day and even at 2000 and 2100 when you would imagine the station is quieter, still find myself sitting on trains on the approach 'waiting for a platform', I am baffled where you think the capacity for your diversion is to be found.

I second this as someone who has to travel over the section of route between New Street and Smethwick Galton Bridge frequently.

There isn't space, even at weekends, for half of what you're proposing to send that way - and even if there was, there isn't room at New Street for it, as Smethwickian points out.
 

Geezertronic

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You could say that, at the moment, due to the refurb New Street is currently working at a lesser capacity than it would do so it doesn't surprise me if trains wait for platforms even at the weekend

But even with the refurb'd New Street with all platforms back available you wouldn't have any additional capacity for trains only passengers
 

Bald Rick

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The stations at Bordesley and The Hawthorns are in some ways (especially Bordesley) of greatest utility at the weekends as they cater for large crowds of football fans when the local teams are playing at home.

That's stretching the truth a bit.

People who use The Hawthorns at weekends are not fans of football. Unless they are supporting the away team ;)
 

sd0733

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You could say that, at the moment, due to the refurb New Street is currently working at a lesser capacity than it would do so it doesn't surprise me if trains wait for platforms even at the weekend

But even with the refurb'd New Street with all platforms back available you wouldn't have any additional capacity for trains only passengers

There are currently no platforms out of use at New Street, platform 1 reopened a few weeks ago and the next hasnt yet closed.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I was reading about Snow Hill Line and its history. Few decades ago, Snow Hill and Moor St. rail stations weren't popular, so trains were diverted to New St. Obviously this has stopped now.

Depending how far back you mean, a few decades ago there was nothing to connect to for passengers coming from Moor St. towards Snow Hill. No through trains towards Stourbridge, and no trams. So it's probably not too surprising if not so many people had reason to travel to Snow Hill at the time.
 

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Depending how far back you mean, a few decades ago there was nothing to connect to for passengers coming from Moor St. towards Snow Hill. No through trains towards Stourbridge, and no trams. So it's probably not too surprising if not so many people had reason to travel to Snow Hill at the time.

Older readers may remember a dark day around 1964 when BR (LMR) withdrew all Sunday local services in the West Midlands - without consultation.
BR said they lost a fortune on the stopping services, and retained only those on inter-city services (eg Leamington, Solihull, Coventry, Wolves).
It meant places like Stourbridge Jn, Stratford and Walsall (and all the intermediate stations) lost all their Sunday services.

This was before the closure of the Snow Hill route, but it was certainly a precursor as it got people used to the wholesale loss of services.
BR said they would reinstate Sunday services if local authorities stumped up, but it then took decades for services to reappear on a funded basis (now called franchise subsidy).
For a long while the West Midlands had a very poor level of Sunday service as a result.
There was a view at the time that the "car city" had turned its back on the railway, and would not care.
 

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Depending how far back you mean, a few decades ago there was nothing to connect to for passengers coming from Moor St. towards Snow Hill. No through trains towards Stourbridge, and no trams. So it's probably not too surprising if not so many people had reason to travel to Snow Hill at the time.

In the 70s after closure of Snow Hill from the south, often Moor Street would close on evenings and weekends wih services running into New Street as there was the capacity to accept these services at those times, but, even prior to Snow Hill re-opening, Moor Street had reopened as New Street needed the capacity for the Cross-City line.
 

jimm

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Older readers may remember a dark day around 1964 when BR (LMR) withdrew all Sunday local services in the West Midlands - without consultation.
BR said they lost a fortune on the stopping services, and retained only those on inter-city services (eg Leamington, Solihull, Coventry, Wolves).
It meant places like Stourbridge Jn, Stratford and Walsall (and all the intermediate stations) lost all their Sunday services.

This was before the closure of the Snow Hill route, but it was certainly a precursor as it got people used to the wholesale loss of services.
BR said they would reinstate Sunday services if local authorities stumped up, but it then took decades for services to reappear on a funded basis (now called franchise subsidy).
For a long while the West Midlands had a very poor level of Sunday service as a result.
There was a view at the time that the "car city" had turned its back on the railway, and would not care.

Sunday morning services between Hereford, Worcester and Birmingham were only reinstated a couple of years ago.
 

Old Hill Bank

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It is not going to happen for all of the reasons given earlier in this thread. It has been debated at length formally and the subject dropped. 6thp Monday to Saturday on the Stourbridge line is a bigger win that anything that could go into New Street.
 

Batman

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Older readers may remember a dark day around 1964 when BR (LMR) withdrew all Sunday local services in the West Midlands - without consultation.
BR said they lost a fortune on the stopping services, and retained only those on inter-city services (eg Leamington, Solihull, Coventry, Wolves).
It meant places like Stourbridge Jn, Stratford and Walsall (and all the intermediate stations) lost all their Sunday services.

This was before the closure of the Snow Hill route, but it was certainly a precursor as it got people used to the wholesale loss of services.
BR said they would reinstate Sunday services if local authorities stumped up, but it then took decades for services to reappear on a funded basis (now called franchise subsidy).
For a long while the West Midlands had a very poor level of Sunday service as a result.
There was a view at the time that the "car city" had turned its back on the railway, and would not care.

If I remember correctly the Walsall line didn't get a Sunday service until the late 1990's.

The Cross City still only has a 2tph Sunday service even on its central section. LM and Centro do want to increase this to 4tph, but I think the problem now is with getting drivers to work on Sunday's. They dare not change the drivers contracts or the unions will kick up a big fuss about it. This is something the government needs to address in the next timetable changes.
 

Tony2215

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I estimate the money saved from closure of Snow Hill, and other two stations to west of Snow Hill every weekend would be enough to employ two or three full time staff or one driver.

.

Lets close Manchester Victoria at weekends too and save some money, divert everything to Piccadilly.
 
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