Diversion of Snow Hill Line services to New St. on weekends

[the sniper]

I estimate the money saved from closure of Snow Hill, and other two stations to west of Snow Hill every weekend would be enough to employ two or three full time staff or one driver.

Have you included the cost of taxiing Snow Hill Guards and Drivers to New Street so they can get their Sunday turns in...? Just because trains wouldn't run to Snow Hill wouldn't mean that Snow Hill depot would shut down for the day.

 

[TSR :D]

Is Snow Hill depot anywhere near Snow Hill station? If so, I would suggest that using tram would be better seeing it is faster and can be cheaper (or even free).

Lets close Manchester Victoria at weekends too and save some money, divert everything to Piccadilly.

And, the point was...? My point was that it's convenient for majority of travellers who are looking to connect at Birmingham city centre on weekends and it saves some staff money. Two birds, one stone.

Now I realise it's not feasible anyway.

But you ignore Smethwick Galton Bridge, which as I have pointed out is a popular station and would lose the majority of its services on Sunday with your proposal. You do know it's not the same as the old Smethwick West and that there's no platform on the junction chord, don't you?

The Hawthorns is in a patch of Smethwick where bus services have been reduced by the diversion of the 53 bus. The Metro does not offer an alternative towards the south west. Why would anyone want to go two miles into Birmingham to go all the way out again?

Jewellery Quarter station also serves parts of Hockley and is used even on Sundays for shopping because of visitors to the quarter's many - well, believe it or not - jewellery traders.

As someone who travels through New Street almost every day and even at 2000 and 2100 when you would imagine the station is quieter, still find myself sitting on trains on the approach 'waiting for a platform', I am baffled where you think the capacity for your diversion is to be found.

On Saturday , a quick glance at timetable reveals there are roughly 5-6 tph towards Birmingham and 3-5 tph towards Wolverhampton. Solihull has similar frequencies towards Birmingham and Dorridge.

However, Smethwick has about 0.560 million passengers per year and Solihull has 1.6 million. Nearly 3x annual passenger usage, yet the frequencies are similar. Trains at Smethwick would have no problem handling extra passengers.

Hawthorns and Jewellery Quarter are well served by Metro. Not many passengers from that station are going to west of Birmingham, nor that many passengers coming from West arriving these stations either, at least not enough to justify a dedicated train service when a metro would have sufficed.

Anyway, this suggestion wouldn't work without a flyover/flyunder, capacity improvements at New Street, and possibly Birmingham to Wolverhampton line as well, making this suggestion rather pointless as it was supposed to save on the costs as well making it better for passengers.

 

[Kettledrum]

I was reading about Snow Hill Line and its history. Few decades ago, Snow Hill and Moor St. rail stations weren't popular, so trains were diverted to New St. Obviously this has stopped now.

I was wondering if there was specific reasons as to why it stopped diverting?

I'd imagine it would be possible to divert these now as all other rail stations bar to Bordesley are already served by either Chiltern or Metro.

On weekends, the capacity at New St. is reduced, I'd guess there's enough space to let ~4 tph in. I don't think there enough capacity for Chiltern but it's a bonus if there is because Moor St. (and Snow Hill as once Metro gets extended) can be closed on weekends to save costs.

This really would be a backward step. IF (and it's a huge IF) there is any capacity at New Street at the weekends, we should be visionary and re-open local stations on freight only routes to experiment with weekend passenger trains on the Camp Hill Line or Sutton Coldfield Line or re-open stations on the Tamworth line. These have been held back in recent decades by lack of platform space at New Street.

There is a huge pent-up demand for improved public transport in Birmingham (as evidenced by road congestion and frequent double decker bus services that just can't cope). Granted, much of that is during the week, but I am sure good use could be made of any capacity at Snow Hill, Moor Street and New Street at the weekend too.

 

[TSR :D]

This really would be a backward step. IF (and it's a huge IF) there is any capacity at New Street at the weekends, we should be visionary and re-open local stations on freight only routes to experiment with weekend passenger trains on the Camp Hill Line or Sutton Coldfield Line or re-open stations on the Tamworth line. These have been held back in recent decades by lack of platform space at New Street.

There is a huge pent-up demand for improved public transport in Birmingham (as evidenced by road congestion and frequent double decker bus services that just can't cope). Granted, much of that is during the week, but I am sure good use could be made of any capacity at Snow Hill, Moor Street and New Street at the weekend too.

I would be saying the same thing if there was proven progress on these projects but so far, there has been zero progress and land needed for the bordseley chord has been sold by the government.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Is Snow Hill depot anywhere near Snow Hill station? If so, I would suggest that using tram would be better seeing it is faster and can be cheaper (or even free).

It's in the station, hence Snow Hill depot. Good luck just telling train crew to catch the tram to New Street. What if one of the guards gets mugged for their cash? You'll be in dispute with RMT and ASLEF within five minutes.

I'm not actually sure why I'm dignifying this idiotic idea with a response. Strikes me as you've just spent ten minutes looking at Wikipedia and decided to propose something for no reason other than you quite fancy it. There are tons of gaps in your knowledge in every post yet you say with complete confidence that you know where passengers from stations losing out travel because cutting them off weakens an already pretty shaky argument.

 

[The Planner]

I would be saying the same thing if there was proven progress on these projects but so far, there has been zero progress and land needed for the bordseley chord has been sold by the government.

Bordesley chord isnt dead....

 

[PHILIPE]

If I remember correctly the Walsall line didn't get a Sunday service until the late 1990's.

The Cross City still only has a 2tph Sunday service even on its central section. LM and Centro do want to increase this to 4tph, but I think the problem now is with getting drivers to work on Sunday's. They dare not change the drivers contracts or the unions will kick up a big fuss about it. This is something the government needs to address in the next timetable changes.

In this day and age funding has to come from somewhere to increase services especially on a Sundays. TOCs are not interested. All many of them do is to stick to the Franchise service spec and look after their shareholders.

 

[Batman]

In this day and age funding has to come from somewhere to increase services especially on a Sundays. TOCs are not interested. All many of them do is to stick to the Franchise service spec and look after their shareholders.

Like I said in my previous post, Centro have expressed an interest in funding the service for years, it just the problems that exist at LM with drivers contracts and Sunday working which are preventing it from happening.

All that needs to happen is that when the next WM franchise is tendered the government need to include a clause in the franchise for some drivers to be required to work on Sundays (just like with every other TOC). The Centro can fund the service for a 12 month trial from December 2017 with an evaluation of passenger numbers taking place in the summer of 2018 to see whether the funding for the service should continue beyond December 2018.

 

[jimm]

Like I said in my previous post, Centro have expressed an interest in funding the service for years, it just the problems that exist at LM with drivers contracts and Sunday working which are preventing it from happening.

All that needs to happen is that when the next WM franchise is tendered the government need to include a clause in the franchise for some drivers to be required to work on Sundays (just like with every other TOC). The Centro can fund the service for a 12 month trial from December 2017 with an evaluation of passenger numbers taking place in the summer of 2018 to see whether the funding for the service should continue beyond December 2018.

If the drivers have contracts that say they do not need to work on Sundays then a franchise agreement between a company and the Government isn't going to change that - you clearly don't understand TUPE regulations that apply to cases such as changes of franchise, where employees' terms and conditions are protected when they change from one employer to another. And other TOCs are heavily reliant on volunteers to work on Sundays as well.

Any change would need to be agreed with the drivers and their union(s) - and would come at a price, one which LM and Central before them were apparently not willing to meet.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I don't think they will ever give up the Sunday agreement at LM. Most other TOCs negotiated that one out when drivers weren't paying 40% income tax on any money offered and they were wise to do so.

 

[the sniper]

All that needs to happen is that when the next WM franchise is tendered the government need to include a clause in the franchise for some drivers to be required to work on Sundays (just like with every other TOC).

Easy as that...

And every TOC has committed Sundays for drivers, who knew? :roll:

 

[Batman]

If the drivers have contracts that say they do not need to work on Sundays then a franchise agreement between a company and the Government isn't going to change that - you clearly don't understand TUPE regulations that apply to cases such as changes of franchise, where employees' terms and conditions are protected when they change from one employer to another. And other TOCs are heavily reliant on volunteers to work on Sundays as well.

Any change would need to be agreed with the drivers and their union(s) - and would come at a price, one which LM and Central before them were apparently not willing to meet.

It's just one example of how trade unions still have too much power in this country, but that's a different issue. I think most ordinary members of the travelling public would be shocked if they knew that TOC's were relying on drivers working overtime in order to operate service which are included in franchise agreements, let alone those which aren't.

But regardless of this, LM have recently managed to improve the Sunday service frequency on the Birmingham to Hereford service, so why can't they do the same of the Cross City Line? It'll only require 4 extra units to be in service for about 11 hours (including ECS workings at the start of the day), so surely it can't be that difficult from a rostering point of view. I'd argue that this is the part of the LM network where an improvement in the Sunday service is most urgently needed.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd argue that this is the part of the LM network where an improvement in the Sunday service is most urgently needed.

Not compared to the south side of the Snow Hill lines; where Sunday services on each "arm" are hourly, you can't get into town until well after 10am and the last trains out are at around 6pm.

 

[Batman]

Not compared to the south side of the Snow Hill lines; where Sunday services on each "arm" are hourly, you can't get into town until well after 10am and the last trains out are at around 6pm.

Sounds like that's in need of improvement too.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Kidderminster get's an hourly service on a Sunday and many services are rostered for a two-car set. Add in the late start it's pretty abysmal. We keep asking for better but we are hitting a brick wall!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's just one example of how trade unions still have too much power in this country, but that's a different issue. I think most ordinary members of the travelling public would be shocked if they knew that TOC's were relying on drivers working overtime in order to operate service which are included in franchise agreements, let alone those which aren't.

How is that to do with union power? Having to have people work overtime sounds to me like an issue of not recruiting and training enough staff.

 

[Class 170101]

How is that to do with union power? Having to have people work overtime sounds to me like an issue of not recruiting and training enough staff.

Unfortunately not. Sunday is outside the working week. If the Union wants to make a point wthout losing pay for its members they just hold, whats called, a barbeque Sunday, happens summer and winter mind.

 

[Llama]

That, if it actually did happen (which it doesn't) would be illegal under trade union legislation and any TOC could stop such action with a court order.

Any action taken by a trade union has to be lawful and abide by strict procedures.

What you describe is the fact that there is often nothing stopping more drivers than usual declaring themselves unavailable to work given Sundays (cup finals, Christmas shopping season, nice weather etc) as they are usually freely and individually able to do.

Any coordinated action would be stopped before it was ever able to make an impact and the respective trade union or individuals wouldn't stand a chance in court.