DMU shake up

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150001

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With the electrification of the Thames Valley and Great Western, aren't the 165s and 166s going to be displaced by the Class 319s? But where can they actually go as they are apparently too wide for some Northern lines. If they could go down to Devon they could rid the lines of the last few Pacers with the 150s either staying for extra capacity or going up North to start replacing the Pacers. 150001 and 150002 are going to be displaced on their branch and I suspect they'll be off to Devon eventually. In Wales the Valley lines new EMUs (in Modern Railways it looks like new builds will be used:D) will displace the Pacers and numerous 150s. The 150s can go up to Northern and cause the withdrawal of some Pacers. Also how Pacers will be replaced by the 319s due to come up (are Northern ever going to get a new train!). I can't see all the Pacers being replaced by 2020 unless we order a bi mode EMU/DMU(a Aventra oppotunity?) This could be easily converted at such a time to be solely EMU when the time comes. Surely a bi mode DMU/EMU should be ordered to kick out the Pacers(sorry for lashing out at them). They could be bi mode providing flexibility and then when electrification finally covers most of the country, the diesel engines could be removed, or kept in case of failure.
What are others ideas or views about what will happen with all the electrification planned?
 
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Lrd

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I've read that they could end up in Bristol, so some Pacers can be retired and some Sprinters going elsewhere/strengthening.
 

LE Greys

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I've read that they could end up in Bristol, so some Pacers can be retired and some Sprinters going elsewhere/strengthening.

They would probably be limited to former GWR lines with their generous loading gauge. Bristol's suburban service alone would not really support that high number of units, so with some refurbishment, they might be suitable for some lighter work further out to places such as Weymouth or Exmouth (assuming they can get down the LSWR section). I doubt they'll make it to Cornwall, but it's possible if they can get round the tight curves on the branches.
 

fgwrich

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165s & 166s can certainly make it down as far as Plymouth though - as i posted in another thread about 2 weeks ago. As for where there likely to head, Expect Bristol & Exeter and possibly Chiltern. 165s down to Exmouth shouldn't be too much of a problem as the line as far as Topsham i think, was originally double track, and i can't see it being much of a problem to get them down to Exemouth - Possible door step reduction in size? According to Wiki, The Avocet line is RA6 / W6A - Does anyone know what the 165s are?

But, seeing as the North Downs line will not yet undergo electrification, then it's likely that several 166s will be retained at Reading for these services.
 

D365

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Are there enough Turbos (Western and possibly Chiltern) to allow all non-electric, ex-broad gauge GW services to be 'Turboed'?
 

The Ham

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But, seeing as the North Downs line will not yet undergo electrification, then it's likely that several 166s will be retained at Reading for these services.

I would hope that this would only be a short/medium situation, as when all GW's other stock at Reading is electric (or at least bi-model) it may (added to the lower track access charges) make it cost effective for GW to electrify the line and standardise their fleet, rather than having a small fleet of 165/1's or 166's (more so if GW hav no others elsewhere) at Reading.
 

anthony263

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I wouldnt be surprised to see the class 165's on the Great Malvern - Weymouth run in the next few years once they are displaced from the Thames Valley routes providing they can be cleared although I have seen some photos of a class 165/166 at Weymouth
 

Lrd

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I wouldnt be surprised to see the class 165's on the Great Malvern - Weymouth run in the next few years once they are displaced from the Thames Valley routes providing they can be cleared although I have seen some photos of a class 165/166 at Weymouth
Care to find and share these photos?

Why would they need to be cleared if they have already been there?
 

anthony263

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They were on a costswold special I will have to look for the link for thsoe photots however I will post as soon as I find them.
 

DXMachina

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It was posted on here that after the Ufton Nervet accident cl.165s had to be moved (cautiously) over routes they were normally banned from to get them home, and no problems were found, suggesting that clearance isnt perhaps as much of an issue as once thought.
 

20Man

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I would certainly like to see Chiltern get some of either the 165/1's or 166's to help with the overcrowding on Chiltern. Refurbished with maybe 2+2 seating they could be useful for the Stratford-upon-Avon services where the 90mph speed would be better than the 75mph 165/0's.
 

anthony263

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I would certainly like to see Chiltern get some of either the 165/1's or 166's to help with the overcrowding on Chiltern. Refurbished with maybe 2+2 seating they could be useful for the Stratford-upon-Avon services where the 90mph speed would be better than the 75mph 165/0's.

However if GW (I will call its Great Western since we dont know who will operate the new franchise yet) decide to take up the option of extending some of the London Paddington - Oxford services to Stratford on Avon will Chiltern decide to continue running a London Marylebone - Straford On Avon service?.
 

tbtc

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However if GW (I will call its Great Western since we dont know who will operate the new franchise yet) decide to take up the option of extending some of the London Paddington - Oxford services to Stratford on Avon will Chiltern decide to continue running a London Marylebone - Straford On Avon service?.

That'd be a long way for a diesel service to run under the wires (London to Leamington via Reading).

For me, I'd be tempted to give GW's 166s to Chiltern for use as doubled up Birmingham services to free up the "normal sized" 168s
 

anthony263

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I think the idea was to use the bi-mode IEP's although I do have my doubts as to wether such a service would be well used however perhaps it might since you would also have the western connection for Heathrow airport allowing easy access to destinations such as Stratford On Avon & Oxford for tourists arriving into the UK from abroad.
 

20Man

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From London the Chiltern route to Stratford is a decent bit shorter, about 17 miles I believe, so could GW compete on time. I know there has been talk of GW reopening the route from, I believe, the Oxford - Worcester line to Stratford. With Chiltern looking for more loco's to free up 168's for their planned Oxford services enough 165/1's or 166's to run the Stratford services would be ideal.
 

tbtc

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I think the idea was to use the bi-mode IEP's although I do have my doubts as to wether such a service would be well used however perhaps it might since you would also have the western connection for Heathrow airport allowing easy access to destinations such as Stratford On Avon & Oxford for tourists arriving into the UK from abroad.

If you want a Heathrow link onto the Chiltern lines then Birmingham (Moor Street?) would be the place to link to
 

Batman

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From London the Chiltern route to Stratford is a decent bit shorter, about 17 miles I believe, so could GW compete on time. I know there has been talk of GW reopening the route from, I believe, the Oxford - Worcester line to Stratford. With Chiltern looking for more loco's to free up 168's for their planned Oxford services enough 165/1's or 166's to run the Stratford services would be ideal.

After IEP has displaced some Voyagers from Cross Country duties, would theses be a suitable replacement for the loco hauled trains and clubmans on the Marylabone - Birmingham services, allowing the locos to be withdrawn and clubmans to be put on local duties?
 

David Goddard

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The 165 fleet is about the right size to cover all FGW services in the Bristol, Devon and Cornwall areas. With 2 and 3 car sets this would offer flexibility, and consistency for users.
Once the North Downs eventually gets electrified, the 166s could move west too, to improve the long distance services. Could see them doing Bristol-Plymouth or beyond.
 

Batman

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The 165 fleet is about the right size to cover all FGW services in the Bristol, Devon and Cornwall areas. With 2 and 3 car sets this would offer flexibility, and consistency for users.
Once the North Downs eventually gets electrified, the 166s could move west too, to improve the long distance services. Could see them doing Bristol-Plymouth or beyond.

I don't think you can just replace local rolling stock in the Bristol area on a like for like basis. Isn't there an need for extra rolling stock for capacity enhancements and train lengthening?
 

20Man

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Chiltern are looking for more locos, most people assume they will go with new Eurolights, and the refurbished MKIII's are reckoned to be good for another 30years and there could be more loco hauled sets to come. I wouldn't want Voyagers on Chiltern services, awful things, I would rather travel on a 168.
 

David Goddard

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I don't think you can just replace local rolling stock in the Bristol area on a like for like basis. Isn't there an need for extra rolling stock for capacity enhancements and train lengthening?

Sorry, didnt write quite enough. The fleet of 36 x 165s (16x 3car and 20x2car) would provide for capacity improvements too.
 

tbtc

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After IEP has displaced some Voyagers from Cross Country duties, would theses be a suitable replacement for the loco hauled trains and clubmans on the Marylabone - Birmingham services, allowing the locos to be withdrawn and clubmans to be put on local duties?

A four coach Voyager has fewer seats than a three coach 168 IIRC (due to the "crumple zones"/ extra disabled toilets/ 2+1 seating), so significantly fewer than a four coach 168 (or equivalent loco hauled rake)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 165 fleet is about the right size to cover all FGW services in the Bristol, Devon and Cornwall areas. With 2 and 3 car sets this would offer flexibility, and consistency for users.
Once the North Downs eventually gets electrified, the 166s could move west too, to improve the long distance services. Could see them doing Bristol-Plymouth or beyond.

I don't think you can just replace local rolling stock in the Bristol area on a like for like basis. Isn't there an need for extra rolling stock for capacity enhancements and train lengthening?

A two coach 165 (46m, 3+2 seats) will have a lot more seats than a 153 (153 = 23m, 2+2 seats) Pacer (Pacer = 30m, 2+2 seats), so a three coach 165 will be significantly bigger (around double the capacity of a 143).

I doubt all of the Devon/ Cornish branches could take much longer tbh
 

aformeruser

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After IEP has displaced some Voyagers from Cross Country duties, would theses be a suitable replacement for the loco hauled trains and clubmans on the Marylabone - Birmingham services, allowing the locos to be withdrawn and clubmans to be put on local duties?

A four coach Voyager has fewer seats than a three coach 168 IIRC (due to the "crumple zones"/ extra disabled toilets/ 2+1 seating), so significantly fewer than a four coach 168 (or equivalent loco hauled rake)

Apparently there's 275 seats on a 4 car 168 compared to 202 on a 4 car XC Voyager, you could probably get up to around 215 on a 4 car Voyager if you refurbished them to remove First Class.

Although what Voyagers are being displaced by IEP?

A two coach 165 (46m, 3+2 seats) will have a lot more seats than a 153 (153 = 23m, 2+2 seats) Pacer (Pacer = 30m, 2+2 seats), so a three coach 165 will be significantly bigger (around double the capacity of a 143).

A 3 car 166 has 256 seats according to the Angel Trains website (no number of seats is given for the 165s.) The FGW 143s have around 100 seats, the ex-Wessex Trains 150s have around 120 seats while a 153 has around 75 seats.
 
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sprinterguy

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The Turbos are over twenty years old themselves - I don't know how long they can be expected to last for (end of this decade, sure, but beyond that?)
In relation to aspirations for Chiltern electrification, Network Rail have stated that the earliest date that the Network Turbos would become due for withdrawal would be during the CP6 period, 2019 - 2024.

However, given that the Sprinters are likely to remain in squadron service well into that period, and the oldest of them are now only a couple of years from turning 30 years old, then it is quite likely that the 165s and 166s will remain in service beyond 2024: Even in 2030, the Network Turbos would still be under 40.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apparently there's 275 seats on a 4 car 168 compared to 202 on a 4 car XC Voyager, you could probably get up to around 215 on a 4 car Voyager if you refurbished them to remove First Class.
Very much so: Converting the DMF vehicle into a DMS with the same seating capacity as the existing DMS would provide a train with 216 seats. Still considerably less than a four carriage 168, and I would much rather have the 168s on the Chiltern line than Voyagers.
Although what Voyagers are being displaced by IEP?
They aren't. Unless we have all missed some sort of crucial announcement (Highly unlikely).


A 3 car 166 has 256 seats according to the Angel Trains website (no number of seats is given for the 165s.) The FGW 143s have around 100 seats, the ex-Wessex Trains 150s have around 120 seats while a 153 has around 75 seats.
The 3-car 165/1s have 286 seats, and the 2-car ones 186.
 

Class172

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I have often suggested sending the 165/166s (not necessarily all of them) to be based at Worcester, where the lines around are already cleared for them. Then they could displace the local 170s which can be sent somewhere more useful.

If Chiltern were ever to gain control of the Snow Hill lines, we could have them in possession of all the turbos.
 

RPI

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165's are destined to go to Exeter and Bristol, 143's to Booth's (hopefully!!) with the 150's Cascaded to Cornwall and some probably going off lease. 166's to be refurbed with 2+2 seating for CDF-PMH services also. All from a good reliable source! this could also allow some 158's back west as they are perfect for Cornish mainline services with their decent luggage space but that isn't as definite.
 
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