DMU shake up

[fgwrich]

Point proven. If there is no spare stock, that's what happens

Certainly is, but i would also say that it depends on Passenger flow too. About a year ago, in the height of summer, me and a friend caught one of the Penzance to Exeter services up at Liskeard - This was worked by a pair of 153s, but by the it's arrival into Plymouth, one of the 153s was due to be taken off leaving a single dogbox through to Exeter. Cue a enough people to fill another unit, so rather than removing the dogbox, someone in FGW allowed the pair to make it over the bank to Exeter - So thank you FGW for that! Also gave the 153s a rather tough time over the banks.

Just wondering then, as in theory our 150/0s can be coupled to a 165 in emergency situations, could they be modified to work together in service?

 

[CC 72100]

RE Single 153s - Make that, including the Devon Metro local services too.

(Whichever 153 it is, just passed the Dawlish webcam on the delayed 16:05 Service to Plymouth)

That 16:05 always seems to be a single 153, one of the only workings I've ever seen as just the one. It was the first Westbound service in the afternoon peak on Dawlish airshow day - my fellow passengers were not impressed!

 

[BR Blue]

Has anyone worked out how many DMU`s will be freed up by the electrification plans?

I already know that 116 vehicles (76 northern, 40 transpennine) are to be released by the original announcement for the north-west.

Not sure what the other schemes will release.

 

[anthony263]

The Thames Valley electrification I think will release the majority of the class 165/166's operated by FGW although some are being retained form the Greenford & Reading - Redhil/Gatwick services although that is likely to only be about 10 units at most

150001 & 150002 are also likely to be released for possible use elsewhere.

For ATW the Valley lines electrification should release ATW's pacers although a number of class 150/153's are likely to be retained for use in Wales.

 

[150001]

I would assume the ATW Pacers may go North to replace the NOR pacers; they have better interiors and are much smarter.

 

[Rich McLean]

I would assume the ATW Pacers may go North to replace the NOR pacers; they have better interiors and are much smarter.

There would be no point, as by then, we will be knocking on the DDA Deadline door

 

[tbtc]

The Thames Valley electrification I think will release the majority of the class 165/166's operated by FGW although some are being retained form the Greenford & Reading - Redhil/Gatwick services although that is likely to only be about 10 units at most

I think Gatwick requires eight DMUs (assuming single unit working), plus maybe one for a truncated Greenford shuttle (operated by Chiltern?).

However, that assumes that the Thames Valley branches will be electrified, which hasn't been announced.

 

[anthony263]

However, that assumes that the Thames Valley branches will be electrified, which hasn't been announced.

It has been annouced that the Thames Valley branches will be electrified the only exception being the Greenford branch.

 

[LE Greys]

It has been annouced that the Thames Valley branches will be electrified the only exception being the Greenford branch.

Which seems like a pointless omission, unless it's for the chop.

 

[BR Blue]

I can`t see the various electrification schemes, being completed in time, to replace the entire Pacer fleet. Not before 31 Dec 2019 anyway. Even if the number of dmu carriages released is enough, the work will, for sure, drag on into CP6.

If the Cardiff Valley lines are to get class 315`s, released by Crossrail in 2018, then there isn`t any incentive to start the work too early.

The 165/166`s heading west were originally to replace an order for 11 x 4 car diesels. Part of the cancelled 200 carriage dmu tender from 2008. Hopefully this will allow some of the Great Western sprinter fleet to be cascaded to Northern.

 

[tbtc]

It has been annouced that the Thames Valley branches will be electrified the only exception being the Greenford branch.

Which seems like a pointless omission, unless it's for the chop.

Fair enough; I didn't see that, I thought it was still just the main line.

Greenford is going to be a self contained shuttle once Crossrail is running (in which case it would make more sense for Chiltern to operate it, and they don't run any EMUs) - to West Ealing only?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see the various electrification schemes, being completed in time, to replace the entire Pacer fleet. Not before 31 Dec 2019 anyway

There won't be enough DMUs freed up to replace Pacers by the end of 2019.
With the exception of the Valley Lines, most of the electrification schemes are targeted at replacing "longer distance" units (HSTs on the GWML and MML, the TPE 185s).

There are a few short "local" routes in Yorkshire/ Lancashire that would free up a number of Pacers (or free up 150s that would free up Pacers) that aren't being tackled. Same with the Snow Hill lines/ GOBLIN which would free up 172s that would be good Pacer replacements.

But the HSTs/ 222s/ 185s freed up from GWML/ MML/ TPE electrification aren't suitable as Pacer replacements, so we need some basic DMUs built before long - nothing fancy, nothing 100mph, just a simple DMU.

 

[HSTEd]

The advantages in having a uniform fleet of new DMUs with 100mph performance may outweigh the cost benefits of only rating them as 75mph units.
Since LO 172s are apparently only 75mph units as a paper exercise and have identical transmissions to 100mph units.

Class 172 spam, which is the logical choice, gets 100mph and air con for free.

Just buy more of them. Lots more.

 

[fgwrich]

To be honest, apart from possible use down in Devon & Cornwall i can't see much more usefull working life left in 001 & 002. Mechanically, they're getting on abit and with the various faults cropping up and crippling the service almost every week - the best thing to do to them would be to stick them into preservation.

 

[87015]

To be honest, apart from possible use down in Devon & Cornwall i can't see much more usefull working life left in 001 & 002. Mechanically, they're getting on abit and with the various faults cropping up and crippling the service almost every week - the best thing to do to them would be to stick them into preservation.

They worked fine out of TS, whats happened? Apart from pink doors, which you usually tell us makes everything better

 

[fgwrich]

They worked fine out of TS, whats happened? Apart from pink doors, which you usually tell us makes everything better

:roll:

Ok, i'll admit on this occasion that the pink doors haven't made these two units perfect - We've had all sorts of faults on the branch, ranging from electrical issues such as the main MCB board tripping out causing no service for 2 1/2 hours, relays tripping out so the doors cannot be opened, mechanical issues - transmission, brakes etc... I think one of the problems is that Reading isn't really a 150 depot - Bristol is, and whilst they were supposed to go back to Bristol for maintenance at the weekends, they havent.

Right idea bringing them on the branch, but the execution needs to be better.

 

[tbtc]

The advantages in having a uniform fleet of new DMUs with 100mph performance may outweigh the cost benefits of only rating them as 75mph units.
Since LO 172s are apparently only 75mph units as a paper exercise and have identical transmissions to 100mph units.

Class 172 spam, which is the logical choice, gets 100mph and air con for free.

Just buy more of them. Lots more.

As long as they are geared to work slow services with regular stops I don't mind what the top speed is. However a lot of faster DMUs aren't suited to this - which is why I don't like plans to cascade 158/170s onto many "Pacer" routes - hence saying 75mph (because a 90/100mph unit will generally struggle with the frequent stops/ starts).

 

[phil281]

What's happening to the class 185's when the trans pennine gets electrified? Also is the hope valley being electrified too?

 

[kjhskj75]

What's happening to the class 185's when the trans pennine gets electrified?

Some will be retained for Barrow, Hull, Cleethorpes.

The rest - dunno - Liverpool-Norwich, Calder Valley, Waterloo-Exeter maybe ?

Also is the hope valley being electrified too?

No. With all those tunnels it would be the most expensive electrification ever.

 

[D365]

The Network RUS Passenger Rolling Stock, pages 44-46, is a useful read in terms of carriage length and loading gauge.

 

[phil281]

Some will be retained for Barrow, Hull, Cleethorpes.

The rest - dunno - Liverpool-Norwich, Calder Valley, Waterloo-Exeter maybe ?




No. With all those tunnels it would be the most expensive electrification ever.

Waterloo - Exeter would make sense as the faster accelaration and top speedof them would free up a path on the SWML between Waterloo and Basingstoke. Allied to the fact you can board people on and off quicker then a 159.

Also as they are part of the desiro family things like maintainance, driver training might not be so much of an issue. Guess then the 159's and 158 could go to EMT strengthening the Liverpool - Norwich's and replacing the 156's and 153's which could then replace more pacers?

 

[ainsworth74]

Waterloo - Exeter would make sense as the faster accelaration and top speedof them would free up a path on the SWML between Waterloo and Basingstoke.

Perhaps, but if you used them to replace all the 158s and 159s you'd still have ten 185s left spare. So either you use them as a microfleet somewhere (not a good option) or try and find a use for them elsewhere with SWT.

 

[phil281]

Perhaps, but if you used them to replace all the 158s and 159s you'd still have ten 185s left spare. So either you use them as a microfleet somewhere (not a good option) or try and find a use for them elsewhere with SWT.

But as mentioned earlier some will need to be retained for the Cleethorpes route probably I would imagine, about ten. Since the fiiters etc will already know how to maintain them it makes sense.

 

[fgwrich]

But as mentioned earlier some will need to be retained for the Cleethorpes route probably I would imagine, about ten. Since the fiiters etc will already know how to maintain them it makes sense.

Perhaps, but if you used them to replace all the 158s and 159s you'd still have ten 185s left spare. So either you use them as a microfleet somewhere (not a good option) or try and find a use for them elsewhere with SWT.

Not just that, but on SWT they would actually bring a disadvantage. Yes, they would be good for the Waterloo - Salisbury services, but not so good on the Waterloo - Exeter services through 1/2 and 2/3 doors and lack of corridor connections.

 

[phil281]

Not just that, but on SWT they would actually bring a disadvantage. Yes, they would be good for the Waterloo - Salisbury services, but not so good on the Waterloo - Exeter services through 1/2 and 2/3 doors and lack of corridor connections.

Why is a corridoor connection that important? I think for that route they are much better suited. Have you ever tried getting on a busy 159 at Woking or Basingstoke? You wouldn't have the problem of limited access with the door locked out of use at the front. As comfy as 159's are, and I hate trains with terrible seats, 3x2 seating etc, I'm not sure they are best suited on a busy commuter line as a 185 would be. And tbh the main custom and revenue is between Salisbury, Basingstoke, Woking and Waterloo and that really should be the priority. 159's would be perfect as a 6 coach train between Liverpool and Norwich with the 158's displaced from that line and SWT to replace the 156's and 153's on EMT, which in turn combined with the FGW 150's displaced by the 165's and 166's, go to Northern to send the Pacers where they belong, the scrapyard.

 

[HSTEd]

Why is a corridoor connection that important? I think for that route they are much better suited. Have you ever tried getting on a busy 159 at Woking or Basingstoke? You wouldn't have the problem of limited access with the door locked out of use at the front. As comfy as 159's are, and I hate trains with terrible seats, 3x2 seating etc, I'm not sure they are best suited on a busy commuter line as a 185 would be. And tbh the main custom and revenue is between Salisbury, Basingstoke, Woking and Waterloo and that really should be the priority. 159's would be perfect as a 6 coach train between Liverpool and Norwich with the 158's displaced from that line and SWT to replace the 156's and 153's on EMT, which in turn combined with the FGW 150's displaced by the 165's and 166's, go to Northern to send the Pacers where they belong, the scrapyard.

Class 185s really guzzle fuel like tomorrow, and are there any MU or SP differentials on the Salisbury/Exeter route?

185s can't use any differentials at all, and it would almost certainly better to scrap them all and buy more 172s if they are required once electrification renders the fleet unneeded on TPE.

EDIT:
It appears there are no differentials at the present time on the route, but then the Sectional Appendices no longer include such things if there is no need for them, and since no non sprinter type trains use the route none might be included anyway.

Even so there is probably opportunity for SP90 or even SP100 differentials to cut down travel time if the light weight sprinter family can be stuck to, so 158/159 or Turbostars.

 

[DavidBrown]

Why is a corridoor connection that important?

Short platforms at a lot of stations between Salisbury and Exeter, particularly Whimple and Feniton, which can only take 3 car trains. The current 6-car 159's are fine as passengers on any part of the train can make their way to the front - if they couldn't that would mean the guard having to check at every station when people board, followed by longer waits at Exeter Central and Honiton whilst people change carriages - it would lead to a mess and delays, basically.

 

[LE Greys]

Class 185s really guzzle fuel like tomorrow, and are there any MU or SP differentials on the Salisbury/Exeter route?

185s can't use any differentials at all, and it would almost certainly better to scrap them all and buy more 172s if they are required once electrification renders the fleet unneeded on TPE.

I'd need to check on the differentials, but I reckon 185s would be useful on the express routes in Scotland. Having plenty of horsepower would be useful up there, especially on the Highland, and the corridors would be helpful since units tend to run doubled-up during the peaks. That should free up a few 170s for other routes. I'd like to add thicker cushions to the 185s, a five-hour journey on those seats doesn't sound very comfortable.

 

[Lrd]

the corridors would be helpful since units tend to run doubled-up during the peaks.

They don't have gangways though...

 

[willc789]

If the 185's could be modified to include gangways for short platforms etc I think they would be ideally suited for the waterloo-exeter run. I would say that given the growth of the line for both commuters and leisure in recent years, the 10 185's left over after a straight swap for the 158/9's could still be encorporated into the lines to boost many peak time services up to 9 cars which is really needed and perhaps replace the 450 on the lym branch again freeing up another unit which could be used to boost capacity into waterloo. 6/9 coach formations would be needed more frequently as they have around 20 fewer seats per set than the current 159's although this could be addressed with the removal of some luggage space and HD seating.

 

[ainsworth74]

6/9 coach formations would be needed more frequently as they have around 20 fewer seats per set than the current 159's although this could be addressed with the removal of some luggage space and HD seating.

Though whilst you lose twenty seats you gain a lot more standing space so at peak time the standees get a better standing environment than they do on the existing 159s. So you could make the argument that it's better to have more standing space at the cost of a few seats, it's not without precedent to go for more standing space at the cost of seats, there was a 313 refurbishment that removed most of the 3+2 seating to create more standing space. It's certainly my personal preference to have better standing space and non-HD seating than to cram as many seats in as possible.