DMUs with no confirmed long term homes

Status
Not open for further replies.

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
I'm thinking the following currently have no confirmed long term homes

79 x 142s being released by Northern*
8 x 143s being released by GWR*
23 x 144s being released by Northern*
17 x 153s being released by Northern (1 of the 18 is going to EMT)
8 x 153s being released by GWR (apparently 6 of the 14 are going to LM)
5 x 156s being released by Scotrail (Scotrail are releasing 10 and Northern have secured 5)
22 x 185s being released by TPE

Are there any other DMUs being released which don't have a future home confirmed? I'm not sure on the current status of the LO 172s.

* Obviously we're not expecting these to have a long term future.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
How similar are 156s to 158/159s both from the point of view of drivers, guards and fitters?
 

GrimsbyPacer

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
1,803
Location
Humberside
Why aren't you expecting Pacers to remain?
They are not to be banned except for the Northern franchise, and a refit model shows it only cost £30k to make the 144s compliant.
There's a rumour going around that the 153s will be turned into 2-car trains again.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,614
Location
Macclesfield
Why aren't you expecting Pacers to remain?
They are not to be banned except for the Northern franchise, and a refit model shows it only cost £30k to make the 144s compliant.
Angel Trains have shown no interest to date in updating the 142 design, so that's probably the majority of the Pacer units gone. Whether ATW would be interested in taking on additional 143, or even 144, units to replace their 142s is dependent on how far away Valley lines electrification is, I suppose.
 
Last edited:

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
6,726
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
I can foresee both several of the 143s staying with FGW/GWR for a little while longer as a result of the cascade delays, and ultimately ending up with ATW until Valley Lines electrification gathers pace - probably even replacing 142s if not bought in to expand the fleet.

Can't see why LM would want 6 of the FGW 153s though - Apart from expanding 'NUCKLE' or to replace the 150/1s, they'll be able to cascade some of their 170s with the Walsall - Rugely electrification soon. Somewhat ironically it could see them take back ex Central / LM 153s 325/329/333/369 to the Midlands then!
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
6,726
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
I'll repeat it again, but probably with little point but. The difference between Leyland Pacers and Alexander Pacer is quite big. The Northern & ATW 142s, Yes, the probably don't have much of a future left in them and the conditions of either isn't that great - although the Valley Lines refurbishment has seen them last a little better than their Northern equivalents. The FGW 143s however are probably the best of the lot, having had a good refurbishment by Wessex Trains and a equally as good one from FGW since then. I'd actually expect these ones to be the last Pacers to be withdrawn as they're actually fairly decent DMUs - and to be fair, do a rather good job on the Devon Metro - Yes, i'll concede that the track is probably a major bonus to boot! I'd probably bet on the 143s & 144s going last!
 

TH172341

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2010
Messages
388
Well the LO 172s will likely end up with either LM or Chiltern - despite the lack of gangways it would be nice if LM got them (unless Derby can fashion up some new cab ends to be retrofitted :lol:)

Would allow the withdrawal of the 153s (bar the trouble of the Bletchley line which can't take x2 23m carriages) or allow the Snow Hill line services to be bolstered for future growth. Of course the freed up LM 170s could strengthen some peak Snow Hill services, although don't know how hot their accleration is when in multiple with a 172?

Really if it came down to it, it would be more logical for Chiltern and LM to have a little swap round of 172s and 170s. I.e A few 170/5s move off to Chiltern in exchange for their 4 172s - the acceleration of the latter would be much more of value to LM than Chiltern considering the nature of services provided. Add in the LO 172s for LM and that would eliminate the 153s at LM, and means all 172s at LM (as well as Bombardier products at Tyseley, therefore far easier fleet management), and give Chiltern more ideal intercity stock. Chiltern already have to couple a 172 unit to a 168 on a Birmingham-London diagram; would be far more consistent to have a 168/170 than a commuter layout 172. That would be of more sense, however practically not simple I suspect!

The 153 situation is an interesting one with the 2020 DDA compliance. I could see some being reformed for 2 car operation if the financial case was there. The only issue I see is the cost of removing the small cab and also the sagging bodywork that seems to be inflicting the units.

Their flexibility in adding extra capacity is of value - perhaps remove the toilets full stop and couple up permanently to DDA compliant 150s at ATW to add extra capacity?

The 156s will have no problem finding a new home - decent units that with a good refurb will keep going on. East Mids, Anglia or Northern for them.

The 144s could have a future - I saw 144012 a few weeks ago and quite impressed by the work done on it actually. I personally find it short sighted that some of the CAF units on order are 2 cars with future forecasted growth. 144E units could still offer extra capacity if needed, particular in multiple with the 150s. The more realistic option though is Wales:

And with the Welsh Valley Electrification seemingly going nowhere modded Pacers could certainly be required by ATW. With the rates of electrification as they are, and no likely replacement DMUs available for the Pacers in Wales, there is an impending problem. Modded 144s could be a temporary solution, or reformed 153s (although their sluggish acceleration would not be ideal).

The 185s I can see ending up at Arriva North; the handy nature of the Siemens depot, and the ideal nature of some of the routes they operate. The only other is maybe the Wales franchise, freeing up 175s for other duties (freeing up 150s elsewhere in Wales for dispatching down to the Valleys?).
 
Last edited:

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
6,726
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
The Chiltern 172s are a bit of an odd one - Am I right in thinking they were initially ordered because of their better acceleration with the intention of allowing their 'Inner London' services a better frequency without slowing down the 'Mainline' services? I've got more of a feeling that that's where the ex LO units would go - to allow the Marylebone stoppers to be increased, or at least doubled up. Unlike the Chiltern 172s current operations which seem to take them as far out as Stratford or Moor Street.
 

TH172341

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2010
Messages
388
They are an odd one - their initial role seems to have diversified now with their trips up to Brum and Stratford. I just think it would be far easier to have the 172s centralised at Tyseley and working the Snow Hill and Nuneatons where their acceleration can be fully taken advantage of.

The LM 170s wouldn't be an ideal fit for the Nuneaton services, nor are they ideal units to strengthen Snow Hill services; all due to the acceleration when it comes down to it. The only other solution for LM is whether the option for additional 172s is still valid (I doubt it with the emission restrictions now).
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
12,505
Location
Another planet...
Repurposing 170s as 168s has already been done by Chiltern with the former TPE units so a 172-swap would seem to make sense on paper at least. The Leyland Super Sprinters are a strange one, as it appears that Arriva North plan to keep the 7 155s but dispense with the 153s. Reforming them into 155s again would make sense if there's a long-term home for them, and the total number of vehicles means 3-car units would leave no spares if the Northern 14 are included (though if the structural issues are not a myth, perhaps some spares wouldn't be a bad thing- personally I can't see any signs of the rumoured body sag but I'm not a rolling stock engineer!). With pacers, 142s are doomed barring any temporary stay of execution due to delays with new stock or electrification which would require a derogation anyway. Both varieties of Alexander Pacers will be relying on the details of the new Wales franchise.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
With the rates of electrification as they are.

Valley Lines is a significantly easier project than the main GWep - resignalled recently so we have a proper record of signal cables and positions, signal cables which won't be damaged by piling vibrations, and relatively few structures to rebuild (not that our civils contractors hang about doing that - they're bloomin' marvellous).

The routes also have significant engineering access windows - little or no freight on individual routes, nothing much happening overnight, the diversionary routes for longer closures and a decent enough road network for rail replacement bus services.

There's also a lot of the 'heavy' work being done for the GWep - feeding, wiring Cardiff Central etc, so the overall project is simpler as well as easier. It'll be pretty quick and pretty easy to wire, really.
 

HLE

Established Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
1,400
I'm thinking the following currently have no confirmed long term homes

79 x 142s being released by Northern*
8 x 143s being released by GWR*
23 x 144s being released by Northern*
17 x 153s being released by Northern (1 is going to EMT)
8 x 153s being released by GWR (apparently 6 are going to LM)
5 x 156s being released by Scotrail (Scotrail are releasing 10 and Northern have secured 5)
22 x 185s being released by TPE

Are there any other DMUs being released which don't have a future home confirmed? I'm not sure on the current status of the LO 172s.

* Obviously we're not expecting these to have a long term future.

Where did you get the 6 x 153's going to LM from?

Interesting if it does happen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They are an odd one - their initial role seems to have diversified now with their trips up to Brum and Stratford. I just think it would be far easier to have the 172s centralised at Tyseley and working the Snow Hill and Nuneatons where their acceleration can be fully taken advantage of.

The LM 170s wouldn't be an ideal fit for the Nuneaton services, nor are they ideal units to strengthen Snow Hill services; all due to the acceleration when it comes down to it. The only other solution for LM is whether the option for additional 172s is still valid (I doubt it with the emission restrictions now).

Hmm why not? Their accceleration can't be worse than a 153? Might make Bedworth more interesting during leaf fall with the disc brake as opposed to treads - but definitely an improvement on the 153's?

I'd personally rather keep the small cab if they were joined back up to 2 car units . (In response to your earlier post)
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
8,030
I'd personally rather keep the small cab if they were joined back up to 2 car units . (In response to your earlier post)

It would seem to be the cheapest option, I'm not sure what benefit you would gain by removing them.
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
The LM 150/1s are supposed to be going to Northern when their current lease expires so all the 150/1s are with one operator, with LM reportedly being offered 6 extra 153s in lieu.

I imagine either Arriva have decided they don't need the other 156s from Scotrail or someone else has secured them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why aren't you expecting Pacers to remain?
They are not to be banned except for the Northern franchise, and a refit model shows it only cost £30k to make the 144s compliant.
There's a rumour going around that the 153s will be turned into 2-car trains again.

You mean £300k I think and don't forget you finish up with a 30m train with around 80 seats, which makes them unsuitable for a lot of lines due to not being able to provide sufficient seats before running out of platform length.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,096
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
The LM 150/1s are supposed to be going to Northern when their current lease expires so all the 150/1s are with one operator, with LM reportedly being offered 6 extra 153s in lieu.

God no. The LM 153's are horrible, useless, smelly and can't even keep to time on the Marston Vale line. I would rather a pacer than more of those things.
 
Last edited:

Eeveevolve

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2011
Messages
120
God no. The LM 153's are horrible, useless, smelly and can't even keep to time on the Marston Vale line. I would rather a pacer than more of those things.

Just had a 153 this morning on the commuter train between Huddersfield and Wakefield. Rammed to the gills and the seating is so cramped.
I normally complain when a 142 comes in, but i would rather have had it back.
 

TH172341

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2010
Messages
388
Other thing with the 153s is the nasty tendency to get wheelflats when in multiple with other units. LM suffered that Autumn just gone... Suppose a short term solution to the Marston Vale, until the East-West Rail link has been done (And electrified), other than 153s are Vivarail units?

Probably is more sensible to have the small cab on the 153s kept actually - cheaper that way and maintains flexibility.

Whilst 170s would be fine probably for Nuneaton, they wouldn't be ideal for strengthening the Snow Hill line really.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,096
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Other thing with the 153s is the nasty tendency to get wheelflats when in multiple with other units. LM suffered that Autumn just gone... Suppose a short term solution to the Marston Vale, until the East-West Rail link has been done (And electrified), other than 153s are Vivarail units?

Probably is more sensible to have the small cab on the 153s kept actually - cheaper that way and maintains flexibility.

Whilst 170s would be fine probably for Nuneaton, they wouldn't be ideal for strengthening the Snow Hill line really.

The loss of the 150 wont be popular on the Vale as the 153 simply doesn't keep to time and a 2 car train is required at times. Will 2 x 153 fit in the space of a 150?
 

Class172

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
20 Mar 2011
Messages
3,364
Location
West Country
Whilst 170s would be fine probably for Nuneaton, they wouldn't be ideal for strengthening the Snow Hill line really.
We'll happily take extra 170s on the Hereford services; Snow Hill lines aren't in desperate need of them currently.
 

TH172341

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2010
Messages
388
Very true - Hereford services would certainly benefit from the 170s - and the Shewsbury services as well.

That's the problem with the Marston Vale - shame LM are losing the 150s to Northern for that reason. I don't know about whether x2 153s would be an option either - 153 carriages are 23m long as well. There doesn't seem to be an easy solution at the moment.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,096
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Very true - Hereford services would certainly benefit from the 170s - and the Shewsbury services as well.

That's the problem with the Marston Vale - shame LM are losing the 150s to Northern for that reason. I don't know about whether x2 153s would be an option either - 153 carriages are 23m long as well. There doesn't seem to be an easy solution at the moment.

that is a big issue on our line with tiny stations and signals right on the platform end. I am sure we will get those tube train things in due course
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
The loss of the 150 wont be popular on the Vale as the 153 simply doesn't keep to time and a 2 car train is required at times. Will 2 x 153 fit in the space of a 150?

2 x 153s are longer than a 2 car 150 but shorter than a 2 car Turbostar.
 
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
793
Location
Cardiff
79 x 142s being released by Northern*
8 x 143s being released by GWR*
23 x 144s being released by Northern*
17 x 153s being released by Northern (1 of the 18 is going to EMT)
8 x 153s being released by GWR (apparently 6 of the 14 are going to LM)
5 x 156s being released by Scotrail (Scotrail are releasing 10 and Northern have secured 5)
22 x 185s being released by TPE

Do you have estimated dates for these being released?
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
How similar are 156s to 158/159s both from the point of view of drivers, guards and fitters?

Quite different. A 156 is far closer to a 150, as I believe was intentional in order to minimise training for crews when they were introduced. A Class 158/159, whilst sharing the fairly generic 'Sprinter' cab layout and controls, is a rather different beast and far more complex. They have different engines, a higher speed capability, different bogies, disc brakes rather than tread, air conditioning, totally different door gear and systems...

Having said all of that, all 15X types can happily work together and cohabit within a common fleet.
 
Last edited:

HLE

Established Member
Joined
27 Dec 2013
Messages
1,400
God no. The LM 153's are horrible, useless, smelly and can't even keep to time on the Marston Vale line. I would rather a pacer than more of those things.

Reliable up this end, don't know what the Bletchley drivers do to them down south :D

They've recently had a light refresh and aren't the worse trains in service.
 

Class172

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
20 Mar 2011
Messages
3,364
Location
West Country
I've never felt there's been anything wrong with the LM 153s either, and the interiors are perfectly fine in my opinion (perhaps the seats are slightly too close to the tables but that's my only issue). They clearly have an aversion to the Marston Vale line.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top