Do Avanti services ever continue north from Manchester Piccadilly?

[The DJ]

Moderator note: This thread is now closed however speculative discussion continues at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...inue-north-from-manchester-piccadilly.214282/ (registration is required to view this link)


The route diagram on the Avanti website shows indicates Manchester Piccadilly as a dead end terminus whereas Wikipedia seems to indicate that trains operate via Machester Piccadilly to rejoin the main WCML route at Warrington.
Is it actually possible to travel via Manchester Piccadilly on an Avanti service?
Apologies if this seems a dumb question but I have never actually travelled on the WCML

 

[Bletchleyite]

The route diagram on the Avanti website shows indicates Manchester Piccadilly as a dead end terminus whereas Wikipedia seems to indicate that trains operate via Machester Piccadilly to rejoin the main WCML route at Warrington.
Is it actually possible to travel via Manchester Piccadilly on an Avanti service?
Apologies if this seems a dumb question but I have never actually travelled on the WCML

There are two bidirectional through lines passing Manchester Piccadilly and heading west, the infamous Platforms 13 and 14. However, Avanti do not operate any WCML trains this way in normal circumstances (though they or Virgin have done during engineering blockades in the past).

 

[Mag_seven]

Is it actually possible to travel via Manchester Piccadilly on an Avanti service?

Only on a diversion when occasionally you will get an anglo Scottish service (for example) run via Wilmslow /Stockport / Manchester Piccadilly / Bolton if there is a problem at say Warrington.

 

[tbtc]

Hi,

Yes, a train could run through Piccadilly (platforms 1-12 are terminal platforms but 13/14 are through platforms towards Oxford Road) - Avanti could divert London - Glasgow services through Manchester if they had to (but that'd mean rejoining the WCML at Preston rather than Warrington - there's no connection from Warrington Central to Warrington Bank Quay) - some British Rail/ Virgin Cross Country services from (south of) Birmingham to Glasgow/ Edinburgh ran through Piccadilly (before all of those services were diverted via Crewe - Warrington BQ - Wigan - Preston instead, with the Manchester - Scotland service given to TPE).

Running some London/ Birmingham - Manchester - Scotland services does get suggested from time to time on here but there are enough problems at 13/14 already and the whole Castlefield Corridor (Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Deansgate) could really do with fewer services rather than more.

A great way of seeing the way it works is here : https://alexhancock.webs.com/Great Britain Train Services - Dec 2019.pdf (each line represents an hourly service)

 

[plugwash]

The route diagram on the Avanti website shows indicates Manchester Piccadilly as a dead end terminus whereas Wikipedia seems to indicate that trains operate via Machester Piccadilly to rejoin the main WCML route at Warrington.
Is it actually possible to travel via Manchester Piccadilly on an Avanti service?
Apologies if this seems a dumb question but I have never actually travelled on the WCML

TPE run services from Manchester Airpot to Glasgow and Edinburgh via Manchester Picadilly, then Wigan or Bolton and up the northern part WCML, I think most of them go via Bolton currently but some may go via Wigan (during the period when the Wigan route was electrified and the Bolton one was not, a lot more services went that way).

Avanti don't run via Manchester in normal passenger service. It has been used as a diversion route in the past though, and I'm sure I've seen a pendolino run empty coaching stock through picadilly late at night before, presumably on it's way to the depot at longsight.

 

[Whistler40145]

TPE run services from Manchester Airpot to Glasgow and Edinburgh via Manchester Picadilly, then Wigan or Bolton and up the northern part WCML, I think most of them go via Bolton currently but some may go via Wigan (during the period when the Wigan route was electrified and the Bolton one was not, a lot more services went that way).

Avanti don't run via Manchester in normal passenger service. It has been used as a diversion route in the past though, and I'm sure I've seen a pendolino run empty coaching stock through picadilly late at night before, presumably on it's way to the depot at longsight.

Several late night Pendolinos run ECS from Preston to Longsight for servicing

 

[CAF397]

There are indeed Avanti ECS moves on and off Longsight to/from Preston, mostly overnight.

The best example of your theory is Northerns Hazel Grove to Blackpool North service. It runs from Stockport, via Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 and then via Bolton to the WCML at Preston.

The TPE services are actually an incarnation of the Intercity/Virgin Cross Country trains from the South to Scotland that ran via Birmingham and Manchester. When the current XC franchise started these services were discontinued, and TPE picked up the Manchester/Scotland paths.

 

[plugwash]

A quick poke on realtime trains shows there seems to be one ECS pendolino through manchester on a weekday and none on a saturday or sunday at the moment. Leaving Lancaster at 20:48 and arriving in Lonsight TMD at 2224

There also seems to be a "Cancelled" path later in the night.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not sure if Avanti passenger services would be able to use all the terminating platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, as platforms 11-12 are particularly short and anything longer than 5 car just wouldn't fit. Platforms 9-10 are a little longer but still might not quite fit a full length Pendolino.

 

[Whistler40145]

Not sure if Avanti passenger services would be able to use all the terminating platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, as platforms 11-12 are particularly short and anything longer than 5 car just wouldn't fit.

I know, because when the WCML is blocked between Preston and Crewe, sometimes they call at Stockport

 

[Welshman]

Hi,

Yes, a train could run through Piccadilly (platforms 1-12 are terminal platforms but 13/14 are through platforms towards Oxford Road) - Avanti could divert London - Glasgow services through Manchester if they had to (but that'd mean rejoining the WCML at Preston rather than Warrington - there's no connection from Warrington Central to Warrington Bank Quay) - some British Rail/ Virgin Cross Country services from (south of) Birmingham to Glasgow/ Edinburgh ran through Piccadilly (before all of those services were diverted via Crewe - Warrington BQ - Wigan - Preston instead, with the Manchester - Scotland service given to TPE).

Running some London/ Birmingham - Manchester - Scotland services does get suggested from time to time on here but there are enough problems at 13/14 already and the whole Castlefield Corridor (Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Deansgate) could really do with fewer services rather than more.

A great way of seeing the way it works is here : https://alexhancock.webs.com/Great Britain Train Services - Dec 2019.pdf (each line represents an hourly service)

Just to be pedantic - there's no need for a connection between Warrington Central and Bank Quay, as they could in theory run via Chat Moss and Earlestown to Warrington Bank Quay.
However, that's highly improbable as it would mean a very inconvenient reversal at Winwick Junction or Bank Quay itself.

Of course, you're right about the problems of running additional services along the Castlefield Corridor. When Avanti Glasgow services have been diverted that way in the past, they have taken the paths used by the North-Wales-Chester-Manchester Pic TfW service, meaning they had to be terminated at Bank Quay.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Not sure if Avanti passenger services would be able to use all the terminating platforms at Manchester Piccadilly, as platforms 11-12 are particularly short and anything longer than 5 car just wouldn't fit. Platforms 9-10 are a little longer but still might not quite fit a full length Pendolino.

Avanti West Coast services are only allowed to use Platforms 5,6,7 and 8 at Manchester Piccadilly. I think a 9 coach pendolino can fit in Platform 9 but they are not allowed to use Platform 9.

They can also use 13 and 14 obviously.

 

[jfollows]

Avanti West Coast services are only allowed to use Platform's 5,6,7 and 8 at Manchester Piccadilly. I think a 9 coach pendolino can fit in Platform 9 but they are not allowed to use Platform 9.

They can also use 13 and 14 obviously.

It may have changed, but in the past I've also used platform 4

EDIT Sectional Appendix only says "Prohibited Manchester Piccadilly platforms 11 & 12" (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix December 2020.pdf)

... although I'd be rather surprised to see one in platform 1, say. I would guess that they're preferred in platforms 5-8 because of the existence of platform staff and the ticket gates.

 

[route101]

I know, because when the WCML is blocked between Preston and Crewe, sometimes they call at Stockport

Last year i took pendo from Stockport to Glasgow, useful connection coming from Nottingham!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It may have changed, but in the past I've also used platform 4

EDIT Sectional Appendix only says "Prohibited Manchester Piccadilly platforms 11 & 12" (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix December 2020.pdf)

... although I'd be rather surprised to see one in platform 1, say. I would guess that they're preferred in platforms 5-8 because of the existence of platform staff and the ticket gates.

Timetable Planning Rules say that Avanti West Coast services are only allowed to be planned into Platforms 5,6,7 and 8.

I guess in disruption or other unique events they could be re-reouted in other platforms by the signaller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

... although I'd be rather surprised to see one in platform 1, say. I would guess that they're preferred in platforms 5-8 because of the existence of platform staff and the ticket gates.

I'd suspect so. The gateline arrangement at Picc is bizarre, though; I don't understand why the whole thing isn't gated as one. Does any other station in the UK have TOC specific ticket gating, other than where you've got a platform that is basically a different station e.g. Liverpool Lime St low level?

 

[Mag_seven]

I'd suspect so. The gateline arrangement at Picc is bizarre, though; I don't understand why the whole thing isn't gated as one. Does any other station in the UK have TOC specific ticket gating, other than where you've got a platform that is basically a different station e.g. Liverpool Lime St low level?

Platforms one and two at Preston are often barriered off by Northern staff whilst access to other platforms aren't.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Similar at Glasgow Central, platforms 1 and 2 (where the longer distance services operate from, including Avanti WCML trains) don't have the automatic ticket gates which apply to the rest of the station.

 

[The Planner]

Timetable Planning Rules say that Avanti West Coast services are only allowed to be planned into Platforms 5,6,7 and 8.

I guess in disruption or other unique events they could be re-reouted in other platforms by the signaller.

That could well be a Virgin/Avanti request. That sort of stuff does lurk in there.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

That could well be a Virgin/Avanti request. That sort of stuff does lurk in there.

Ah ok, did not know that.

 

[Trackman]

Timetable Planning Rules say that Avanti West Coast services are only allowed to be planned into Platforms 5,6,7 and 8.

I guess in disruption or other unique events they could be re-reouted in other platforms by the signaller.

A late running service last Thursday (last one out of Euston) was diverted to P3, should have been P7.

Realtime Trains - 1H77 2200 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Class 170101]

A late running service last Thursday (last one out of Euston) was diverted to P3, should have been P7.

Realtime Trains - 1H77 2200 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Probably due to engineering works.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Can all platforms at Manchester Piccadilly even fit a 390? I'd imagine with P1,2 and 3 it might be an especially tight fit. But it could also depend on whether its a 9 or 11 car set.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Last year i took pendo from Stockport to Glasgow, useful connection coming from Nottingham!

I once went from Nottingham to Glasgow direct via Man Victoria in 86, I think the train started at Harwich.

 

[Whistler40145]

I once went from Nottingham to Glasgow direct via Man Victoria in 86, I think the train started at Harwich.

During the Piccadilly remodelling, the Harwich to Glasgow Central was book to call at Manchester Victoria

 

[jfollows]

Can all platforms at Manchester Piccadilly even fit a 390? I'd imagine with P1,2 and 3 it might be an especially tight fit. But it could also depend on whether its a 9 or 11 car set.

9-car 217.5m, 11-car 265.3m [I calculate, not authoritative, please correct me if you have the real lengths], see attached extract from the Sectional Appendix (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix December 2020.pdf) for platform lengths.

... which implies that platforms 1-4, 9 behind MP 390 signal, 10, 11 & 12 are too short for 11-car sets. And that 9 (MP 390), 10, 11 & 12 are also too short for 9-car sets.

EDIT NB "behind MP 390" refers to the short platform length at platform 9. MP 374 is the signal at the end of the platform, but any train occupying the platform up to this signal blocks platforms 10,11 & 12 (see diagram attached, extracted from https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/man1).

 

[AMD]

Interestingly as a result of a fatality at Euxton, 1M15 is on its way from Preston to London via Piccadilly P13 right now, albeit not booked to call at Picc.

 

[_toommm_]

Interestingly as a result of a fatality at Euxton, 1M15 is on its way from Preston to London via Piccadilly P13 right now, albeit not booked to call at Picc.

View attachment 86496

Theres also an ECS here where the OP can see the route took:

Realtime Trains - 5S82 1830 Crewe to Preston

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Ianno87]

A couple of years back, (then) Virgin ran a special Manchester Piccadilly - Oxenholme service in connection with a music festival, albeit via Crewe (presumably so it could use the main shed at Piccadilly)

 

[MichaelAMW]

As well as diversions via Manchester to/via Preston, when there are engineering works, the same sometimes happens for Liverpool. In practice, I think they just extend one of the Manchester trains via Chat Moss, rather than still run the Liverpool separately, but that may depend on time of year or day of week.