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Do GWR 800/802s decouple in service and should sets be extended to 9 cars?

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Energy

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I would see capacity planning and management as intrinsic to a well run railway whether or not it is private or public ownership
Agreed, but an overcrowded train is more profitable than having an extra train. To be fair the DfT don't seem to be great for accounting for demand that well either.
 
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Energy

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I can imagine this planning is a complex task with many variables and I'd accept that lead times for new rolling stock/contingency for changes in habits/seasonality etc should be considered but doubling the capacity without a really good reason doesn't seem right either. I don't know whether such a reason exists - it might do but I'd like to see more numbers. Whenever I've travelled west of Plymouth there has always been plenty of space but I'll be the first to admit its not a scientific sample and is a few years out of date so I keep an open mind.
Rolling stock also takes a while to be made, tested etc.
 

Facing Back

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Agreed, but an overcrowded train is more profitable than having an extra train. To be fair the DfT don't seem to be great for accounting for demand that well either.
True enough but I'd still expect there to be some overcrowded trains even with "perfect" planning.

As I understood it the number of GWR IETs (and the breakdown between 5 and 9 coach sets) was set by the DfT - although I may have dreamed that. If so though then its already public sector capacity planning.
 

Energy

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True enough but I'd still expect there to be some overcrowded trains even with "perfect" planning.

As I understood it the number of GWR IETs (and the breakdown between 5 and 9 coach sets) was set by the DfT - although I may have dreamed that. If so though then its already public sector capacity planning.
Of course their is going to be a little overcrowding, a couple people standing. You can never tell the exact numbers years in advance of course. I believe the DfT did the order on the DfTs timetable, which GWR simplified but the order had already been done, that's why there are so many 5 cars.
 

JonathanH

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I believe the DfT did the order on the DfTs timetable, which GWR simplified but the order had already been done, that's why there are so many 5 cars.

Yes, but that only covers the 800s. The DfT ordered a certain number of diagrams and Agility Trains West / Hitachi decided how many trains they would need to cover them.
 

Facing Back

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Saying all this, I do like a nice long train. When I'm on a busy 2x5, either an IET or a Voyager, I'm always consumed with the idea that the other half of the train, the half I will never see, will be much emptier and better in every way. When they've run out of bacon rolls (on the Virgin/Aventi train - lets not get started on GWR catering) or the steward is being parsimonious with the G&T I always assume life would be so much better in the other half - the golden half.

Its something I should probably get over - but I do, as a purely personal preference and nothing to do with the sense of buying decisions - prefer a 9 to a 2x5. Or an 11 with the pendos. I'm in heaven on a Eurostar with 16 coaches and I must try the Australian trains which I hear are up to a mile long.
 

Facing Back

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...Sadly though I can't help feeling that a bunch of 2x5s was likely the more practical solution. It just seems much more versatile in its primary function - carrying warm bodies from A to B whilst still being "quite full" for as much of the time as possible....
 

class26

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Agreed, but an overcrowded train is more profitable than having an extra train. To be fair the DfT don't seem to be great for accounting for demand that well either.

But is it ?
Many of those pax on the over crowed train may well decided next time to travel by another mode of transport.
 

jimm

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But is it ?
Many of those pax on the over crowed train may well decided next time to travel by another mode of transport.

Not this one again.

The other modes of transport between Penzance and London are:

Drive yourself - which is going to take a good five-and-a-half hours, not inclusive of any pit stops along the way.

National Express - their fastest coach takes about 8hrs 30mins and the slowest over 10 hours - six or seven coaches each way per day at this time of the year, including overnight runs, so about as many seats across the day as there are on one five-car IET.

Get yourself to/from Newquay airport and fly to/from Heathrow, on which route there are scarcely more seats in total on the four daily flights than in one five-car IET.
 
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Not this one again.

The other modes of transport between Penzance and London are:

Drive yourself - which is going to take a good five-and-a-half hours, not inclusive of any pit stops along the way.

National Express - their fastest coach takes about 8hrs 30mins and the slowest over 10 hours - six or seven coaches each way per day at this time of the year, including overnight runs, so about as many seats across the day as there are on one five-car IET.

Get yourself to/from Newquay airport and fly to/from Heathrow, on which route there are scarcely more seats in total on the four daily flights than in one five-car IET.

To be fair I think plenty of people would rather drive, and I know plenty of people people who prefer to go by coach from say, Cardiff to London. I wouldn't know about National Express, but megabus is leagues cheaper than a train ticket. I think cost plays a big factor in what mode of transport people prefer, not to mention some people just prefer to drive or take a coach.
 

irish_rail

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Not this one again.

The other modes of transport between Penzance and London are:

Drive yourself - which is going to take a good five-and-a-half hours, not inclusive of any pit stops along the way.

National Express - their fastest coach takes about 8hrs 30mins and the slowest over 10 hours - six or seven coaches each way per day at this time of the year, including overnight runs, so about as many seats across the day as there are on one five-car IET.

Get yourself to/from Newquay airport and fly to/from Heathrow, on which route there are scarcely more seats in total on the four daily flights than in one five-car IET.
Alot of older people (of which there are plenty in the south west) prefer a comfortable slower trip over an awful but quicker one. I suspect this will be the demographic we lose most of over the coming years. Also the business types may well be tempted onto the flights from Newquay or Exeter .
 

squizzler

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Alot of older people (of which there are plenty in the south west) prefer a comfortable slower trip over an awful but quicker one. I suspect this will be the demographic we lose most of over the coming years. Also the business types may well be tempted onto the flights from Newquay or Exeter .
On the basis of your example I have to disagree. Both types of traveller you mention are surely those with the funds and the inclination to spring for first class.
 

Cardiff123

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I haven't read this entire thread, but I'd say the answer to the thread title is obvious, of course all IET sets should be permanent 9 or 10 car formations, and 5 car sets should definitely be lengthened to 9 or 10 cars.

We're in a climate crisis, we don't get cold winters anymore in this country but just get mild, wet and windy winters and Australia is currently on fire. But the govt still can't see the urgent need to get people out of polluting cars. Electric cars aren't the 'answer' either.
Drastically increasing rail capacity is. Eg. A 9 or 10 car IET can accommodate 700-800 people (at a guess) or you could have the same number of people each in an individual car.
And of course it's too easy with so many 5 car sets for a 5 car set to turn up alone on a peak working that should be 9 or 10 cars. I mean for most people, a 5 car IET is actually just 3.5 cars, totally inadequate for a long distance service.

This is why we desperately need the DfT and civil service to have no involvement in the running and specifying of the railways and we need an overarching rail organisation, run by professionals from the rail industry, running things, not civil servants working from spreadsheets.
 
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On the basis of your example I have to disagree. Both types of traveller you mention are surely those with the funds and the inclination to spring for first class.

I'd agree with irish_rail, at least on the older travellers point. My grandparents always got the coach as they found it more comfortable and stress free than the train.
 

jaffa

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I travelled with GWR from London to Exeter over Christmas. I travelled on the Exeter stopping service on the way down which was a 9 car and almost full, and a Penzance service on the way back, which was again a 9 car throughout and while not full, was busy. Both services would have easily been full and standing if they had been 5 cars. There were a lot of short forms and cancellations on the 28th Dec, I believe most of which were caused by crew shortages.

It seems a major flaw that 2x 5 car requires more train crew, when GWR appears to be so short of crew at the moment. GWR really needs to run the majority of trains as 9 car or 2x 5 car on this route at certain times of the year - half terms, Easter, summer, Christmas and other events such as Glastonbury. By my calculations this would be around 20 weeks a year total.

The splitting at Plymouth works well at quiet times of year, but there is a significant chunk of the year where it doesn't work well. I don't really think it's acceptable to expect people to stand for 2, 3, 4+ hours. Can any 5 car sets be taken off routes which may be quieter at the opposite times to the South West route - eg commuter services? Or can GWR encourage people to use longer/quieter trains with cheaper advance tickets on these services? It feels like the crew shortages at major holidays has been going on for a while now - is there an end in sight to this?
 
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I haven't read this entire thread, but I'd say the answer to the thread title is obvious, of course all IET sets should be permanent 9 or 10 car formations, and 5 car sets should definitely be lengthened to 9 or 10 cars.

We're in a climate crisis, we don't get cold winters anymore in this country but just get mild, wet and windy winters and Australia is currently on fire. But the govt still can't see the urgent need to get people out of polluting cars. Electric cars aren't the 'answer' either.
Drastically increasing rail capacity is. Eg. A 9 or 10 car IET can accommodate 700-800 people (at a guess) or you could have the same number of people each in an individual car.
And of course it's too easy with so many 5 car sets for a 5 car set to turn up alone on a peak working that should be 9 or 10 cars. I mean for most people, a 5 car IET is actually just 3.5 cars, totally inadequate for a long distance service.

This is why we desperately need the DfT and civil service to have no involvement in the running and specifying of the railways and we need an overarching rail organisation, run by professionals from the rail industry, running things, not civil servants working from spreadsheets.

I'd agree with that. To my admittedly uneducated eye, the fact that the railway's way of encouraging people out of their cars is to make shorter trains seems counterintuitive. I wonder, if enough money was given to them, would GWR (or the DfT) have ordered all nine cars?
 

Cardiff123

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I travelled with GWR from London to Exeter over Christmas. I travelled on the Exeter stopping service on the way down which was a 9 car and almost full, and a Penzance service on the way back, which was again a 9 car throughout and while not full, was busy. Both services would have easily been full and standing if they had been 5 cars. There were a lot of short forms and cancellations on the 28th Dec, I believe most of which were caused by crew shortages.

It seems a major flaw that 2x 5 car requires more train crew, when GWR appears to be so short of crew at the moment. GWR really needs to run the majority of trains as 9 car or 2x 5 car on this route at certain times of the year - half terms, Easter, summer, Christmas and other events such as Glastonbury. By my calculations this would be around 20 weeks a year total.

The splitting at Plymouth works well at quiet times of year, but there is a significant chunk of the year where it doesn't work well. I don't really think it's acceptable to expect people to stand for 2, 3, 4+ hours. Can any 5 car sets be taken off routes which may be quieter at the opposite times to the South West route - eg commuter services? Or can GWR encourage people to use longer/quieter trains with cheaper advance tickets on these services? It feels like the crew shortages at major holidays has been going on for a while now - is there an end in sight to this?
It seems bonkers that at a time when the DfT is relentlessly trying to bring down the cost of staffing on the rail network by forcing DOO onto many franchises, on GWR it decides to introduce new trains that require double the number of train crew. You can also then get crazy situations where there could be a 2 x 5 car set running a peak service, but if there's no train crew for one of the sets, it runs as 5 car with one set locked out of use.
 

HowardGWR

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If the 5 car units ought to be 9 cars in order to get more people on rail from Penzance to Plymouth, because of climate threat, then the 9 car ones ought to be 18 car from Plymouth onwards and the 2 x 5 car ones from Plymouth ought to be perhaps 20 car! Perhaps the frequency should be upped to every 15 mins.

Are people really thinking about what they are writing here?
 

FGW_DID

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It seems bonkers that at a time when the DfT is relentlessly trying to bring down the cost of staffing on the rail network by forcing DOO onto many franchises, on GWR it decides to introduce new trains that require double the number of train crew. You can also then get crazy situations where there could be a 2 x 5 car set running a peak service, but if there's no train crew for one of the sets, it runs as 5 car with one set locked out of use.

Double the number of Train Crew?

5 car needs 1x Driver, 1x TM, 1x CH, 1x CH(FC) = 4

All you need for the extra 5 car are the Customer Hosts (one of which must be FSL - Front Set Lead competent.)

Hardly double now is it?

Doesn’t matter how many cars you have, if you haven’t got a Driver or TM it ain’t going anywhere.
 

JonathanH

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We're in a climate crisis, we don't get cold winters anymore in this country but just get mild, wet and windy winters and Australia is currently on fire. But the govt still can't see the urgent need to get people out of polluting cars. Electric cars aren't the 'answer' either.
Drastically increasing rail capacity is.

No. Reducing the amount of unnecessary travel by whatever means is the correct response to the climate crisis, not allowing demand to increase. Towing around empty train carriages is a terrible response to the climate crisis. Some form of travel rationing will need to be implemented and that includes train travel.

However, that is a matter for another thread.

I wonder, if enough money was given to them, would GWR (or the DfT) have ordered all nine cars?

No, for reasons repeated many times in this thread.

Or can GWR encourage people to use longer/quieter trains with cheaper advance tickets on these services?

Why not just encourage them to change at Plymouth onto the local service following or preceding the through one, especially in the westward direction?

This is why we desperately need the DfT and civil service to have no involvement in the running and specifying of the railways and we need an overarching rail organisation, run by professionals from the rail industry, running things, not civil servants working from spreadsheets.

For so long as public money is being spent, the DfT and civil service have to be involved.
 

jimm

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To be fair I think plenty of people would rather drive, and I know plenty of people people who prefer to go by coach from say, Cardiff to London. I wouldn't know about National Express, but megabus is leagues cheaper than a train ticket. I think cost plays a big factor in what mode of transport people prefer, not to mention some people just prefer to drive or take a coach.

Yes, people have other options and all sort of factors, price included, drive their decisions - but that is a different matter from forum posts alleging that everyone will all of a sudden stop using trains because they once got on a very busy one. Will everyone whose journey on the M1 was disrupted yesterday because of the lorry crash stop using their cars as a result of getting stuck in congestion on roads being used for diversions?

Alot of older people (of which there are plenty in the south west) prefer a comfortable slower trip over an awful but quicker one. I suspect this will be the demographic we lose most of over the coming years. Also the business types may well be tempted onto the flights from Newquay or Exeter .

Another of your old lines. If the alternatives to GWR are so immensely attractive, why is it that National Express and FlyBe are providing no more than 300 to 400 seats each per day between London and Cornwall? As opposed to the best part of 3,000 per day that GWR is providing even at this time of the year, never mind in the summer season.

FlyBe runs a whole one direct flight per day each way between Exeter and London City, which are already aimed squarely at the business types, 07.00 to London, 17.25 back. According to the Business Traveller website, its main function each morning is actually to get a plane up to London to operate a flight to Amsterdam, not because the business types of the east of Devon are all clamouring to fly up to London.

In truth, Flybe only runs Exeter-London City for operational reasons. Soon after the aircraft arrives it departs for Amsterdam.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...morning-exeter-london-city-flight-in-january/

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'd say the answer to the thread title is obvious, of course all IET sets should be permanent 9 or 10 car formations, and 5 car sets should definitely be lengthened to 9 or 10 cars.

We're in a climate crisis, we don't get cold winters anymore in this country but just get mild, wet and windy winters and Australia is currently on fire. But the govt still can't see the urgent need to get people out of polluting cars. Electric cars aren't the 'answer' either.
Drastically increasing rail capacity is. Eg. A 9 or 10 car IET can accommodate 700-800 people (at a guess) or you could have the same number of people each in an individual car.
And of course it's too easy with so many 5 car sets for a 5 car set to turn up alone on a peak working that should be 9 or 10 cars. I mean for most people, a 5 car IET is actually just 3.5 cars, totally inadequate for a long distance service.

This is why we desperately need the DfT and civil service to have no involvement in the running and specifying of the railways and we need an overarching rail organisation, run by professionals from the rail industry, running things, not civil servants working from spreadsheets.

Why may all sound fine and dandy but doesn't actually address the fundamental point that the people of Cornwall are not crying out to spend their entire lives travelling up and down to London, nor are people living along the Cotswold Line or between Kemble and Cheltenham.

Using nine-car trains in all those places all that time would be a colossal waste of resources and do a fine job of contributing to the climate crisis by wasting energy carting lots of empty coaches up and down and accelerating track wear, requiring more steel rails to be produced by not-exactly-green blast furnaces.

Where drastically increasing rail capacity would make a big difference is in and around large towns and cities, not least by providing lots of light rail systems. Most journeys made in this country are short ones, in urban areas, in cars, not on trains between the capital and a sparsely-populated largely rural county in the far south west.

Where do you think much of the cost of running the railway come from? The government - which for some inexplicable reason takes an interest in how money raised in taxes is spent.

There may well be a need to rethink policies, but that is not going to result in a no-holds-barred, buy-what-you-like, no-matter-what-the-cost spending spree on the railways or anywhere else. Recent policy moves in Germany may offer an example to follow, but DB has to meet all sorts of targets in coming years to receive all the money planned - and the other passengers and freight operators in Germany are far from happy at so much funding being funnelled into DB.
 

irish_rail

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Double the number of Train Crew?

5 car needs 1x Driver, 1x TM, 1x CH, 1x CH(FC) = 4

All you need for the extra 5 car are the Customer Hosts (one of which must be FSL - Front Set Lead competent.)

Hardly double now is it?

Doesn’t matter how many cars you have, if you haven’t got a Driver or TM it ain’t going anywhere.
Ah but what about all the additional drivers dealing with the many many ECS moves .
 

irish_rail

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I haven't read this entire thread, but I'd say the answer to the thread title is obvious, of course all IET sets should be permanent 9 or 10 car formations, and 5 car sets should definitely be lengthened to 9 or 10 cars.

We're in a climate crisis, we don't get cold winters anymore in this country but just get mild, wet and windy winters and Australia is currently on fire. But the govt still can't see the urgent need to get people out of polluting cars. Electric cars aren't the 'answer' either.
Drastically increasing rail capacity is. Eg. A 9 or 10 car IET can accommodate 700-800 people (at a guess) or you could have the same number of people each in an individual car.
And of course it's too easy with so many 5 car sets for a 5 car set to turn up alone on a peak working that should be 9 or 10 cars. I mean for most people, a 5 car IET is actually just 3.5 cars, totally inadequate for a long distance service.

This is why we desperately need the DfT and civil service to have no involvement in the running and specifying of the railways and we need an overarching rail organisation, run by professionals from the rail industry, running things, not civil servants working from spreadsheets.
Absolutely agree! The government bang on a out trying to slow down climate change but there just isn't the spare capacity on some routes to be able to tempt people onto the trains with cheaper fares etc.
 

JonathanH

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Absolutely agree! The government bang on a out trying to slow down climate change but there just isn't the spare capacity on some routes to be able to tempt people onto the trains with cheaper fares etc.

No, because no one wants to face the reality that travel which is not human-powered needs to be severely cut back and rationed very soon.

Tempting people to make journeys they would not otherwise have made with cheaper fares is not good for the climate. Obviously, modal shift is worthwhile.
 
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No, because no one wants to face the reality that travel which is not human-powered needs to be severely cut back and rationed very soon.

Tempting people to make journeys they would not otherwise have made with cheaper fares is not good for the climate. Obviously, modal shift is worthwhile.

I don't think anyone in high positions of power want to face the reality of climate change, the rail industry is no exception. How we're still ordering diesel only multiple units such as the 195s is beyond me, I think all new stock should HAVE to be bi mode. It would at least be a start.

You're right though, a change in mentality is definitely needed.
 

Energy

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I think all new stock should HAVE to be bi mode.
Bimode or electric
If the 5 car units ought to be 9 cars in order to get more people on rail from Penzance to Plymouth
Agreed
then the 9 car ones ought to be 18 car from Plymouth onwards and the 2 x 5 car ones from Plymouth ought to be perhaps 20 car! Perhaps the frequency should be upped to every 15 mins.
If capacity is an issue with 9 cars then maybe 11 car units but no more. 18 and 20 cars is way too long, remember the coaches are a little longer so a 20 carriage one would be 520m long and an 18 carriage one 468m long.

Frequent 9 car services with possible 11 cars in the future if needed would be best and I doubt there would be enough people for more than that.
Are people really thinking about what they are writing here?
Yes, there are thought of fresh air being carried around by 9 car trains. The aim is so there are a good amount of people in each train with few seats without people in, there aren't enough for people for the amount of carriages you want
 

Cardiff123

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One easy way govt could very easily get people out of cars and onto trains, trams and buses, for short or long distance journeys, is to annually increase fuel tax, which has been frozen for 10 years, and freeze/reduce rail fares instead, using the extra cash from rising fuel duty to pay for investment in public transport. And stop introducing other gimmicky policies like removing tolls from the Severn Bridge to encourage more car use.

But of course that's not a populist policy and is far too sensible, so won't be adopted by our current government.
 
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One easy way govt could very easily get people out of cars and onto trains, trams and buses, for short or long distance journeys, is to annually increase fuel tax, which has been frozen for 10 years, and freeze/reduce rail fares instead, using the extra cash from rising fuel duty to pay for investment in public transport. And stop introducing other gimmicky policies like removing tolls from the Severn Bridge to encourage more car use.

But of course that's not a populist policy and is far too sensible, so won't be adopted by our current government.

Yeah, the problem with that is that it makes far too much sense. We can't have that.
 
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