hairyhandedfool
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 8,837
I'm pretty sure that the level of trust between employer and employee is of no concern to the railway.
island has already refuted this conclusion. But for completeness, I should do so myself as well.So from what DaveNewcastle has posted, you should decline to hand over a ticket without a receipt some other official proof of ticket purchase until you're off railway property as that's when your journey finishes, according to the law. That's taking the safest opinion of course.
That should lead to some interesting conversations!
Can't be many other places where you'd get a 7 page discussion about a small piece of cardboard.
If you submit a petrol receipt for mileage reimbursement does it detail the actual journey undertaken?
My other half drives her own car for work and gets her employer's mileage rate, but in addition to her mileage return she has to submit VAT receipts for fuel worth at least as much as she claims.I thought the mileage rate included a fuel allowance so you have to detail your mileage in an expense claim and you get a certain HMRC-dictated sum per mile back? So you shouldn't need to claim the petrol separately anyway?
My other half drives her own car for work and gets her employer's mileage rate, but in addition to her mileage return she has to submit VAT receipts for fuel worth at least as much as she claims.
What on earth happens if your fuel usage is less than you claim as mileage (given that the mileage allowance is meant to cover additional wear & tear, as well as just fuel this is possible) or if you claim the pushbike allowance, I do not know.
As I understand it, nothing at all happens with the fuel receipts other than being kept "in case they get checked"That sounds highly dubious. Would surmise the employer is paying the mileage allowance but claiming back the VAT on fuel as if it was spent on a company vehicle. Or it's a mistake.
If she feels able I would definitely query this as hers is not a company car!
As I understand it, nothing at all happens with the fuel receipts other than being kept "in case they get checked"
The employer is a local authority so I'd be tempted to assume mindless bureaucracy rather than anything more sinister
So from what DaveNewcastle has posted, you should decline to hand over a ticket without a receipt some other official proof of ticket purchase until you're off railway property as that's when your journey finishes, according to the law. That's taking the safest opinion of course.
That should lead to some interesting conversations!
island has already refuted this conclusion. But for completeness, I should do so myself as well.
That is not a rational deduction from the facts and, in particular, from the judgement in Bremme. The facts are that a passenger without a ticket may be required to produce it for inspection. That requirement might arise more than once during travel. That inspection may take place during travel or subsequently while still on railway premises. Having satisfied an inspection after every element of their travel, the fare paying passenger will have fulfilled their obligation to produce their ticket. The non-ticket holding passenger however, may encounter further requests to present a ticket. That could extend beyond the scope of Bremme and may include a request to produce a ticket beyond railway premises.
I'd be grateful if you did not attempt to give advice to passengers without good reason to support the accuracy of that advice and the ability to provide references should the matter require them in a subsequent challenge. Thank you.
I thought the mileage rate included a fuel allowance so you have to detail your mileage in an expense claim and you get a certain HMRC-dictated sum per mile back? So you shouldn't need to claim the petrol separately anyway?
The product purchased is clearly a rail ticket!
If you submit a petrol receipt for mileage reimbursement does it detail the actual journey undertaken?
westv said:Can't be many other places where you'd get a 7 page discussion about a small piece of cardboard.
I'm pretty sure that the level of trust between employer and employee is of no concern to the railway.
The fact remains that the TOC is under no obligation to allow the passenger to keep the ticket because the ticket is not required by HMRC or to comply with auditing regulations. The passenger's employer may want to see the ticket but it isn't required to comply with any law.It is if that means revenue is lost because the employee ends up using other means of transport rather than the railway as they are unable to keep tickets to be used for expenses claims.
The fact remains that the TOC is under no obligation to allow the passenger to keep the ticket because the ticket is not required by HMRC or to comply with auditing regulations. The passenger's employer may want to see the ticket but it isn't required to comply with any law.
The only thing missing from the receipt posted up-thread by Arctic Troll is the VAT registration number, but seeing as rail travel is (I believe?) VAT exempt it doesn't actually matter.
It's not arrogance, it's a statement of fact - the employer is asking for more information than the TOC is obliged to provide in order to comply with HMRC requirements...."it is your employer's problem" are incredibly arrogant attitudes...
I'm pretty sure that this actually affects a very small percentage of customers. In my experience, the majority of customers don't even need a receipt because they are travelling on their own dime. Of those who need to claim for the journey, I'm willing to bet that most don't need any more information than is contained on the current receipt....There are also several other solutions, which, if implemented, will mean happy customers for no real effort.
Is it not just as arrogant to demand the railway change because the company are inflexible on their more recent (and seemingly overly complex) expenses rules?
It's not arrogance, it's a statement of fact - the employer is asking for more information than the TOC is obliged to provide in order to comply with HMRC requirements.I'm pretty sure that this actually affects a very small percentage of customers. In my experience, the majority of customers don't even need a receipt because they are travelling on their own dime. Of those who need to claim for the journey, I'm willing to bet that most don't need any more information than is contained on the current receipt.
Given that more often than not the gateline staff will let you keep the ticket if you ask nicely, it really seems like a solution in search of a problem.
For example, TIS receipts from many TOCs now detail exactly what tickets are bought. Why not do the same with TVM receipts?
I'm not so sure it is legal for an employer to demand the ticket before reimbursing the employee
The fact remains that the TOC is under no obligation to allow the passenger to keep the ticket because the ticket is not required by HMRC or to comply with auditing regulations. The passenger's employer may want to see the ticket but it isn't required to comply with any law.
The only thing missing from the receipt posted up-thread by Arctic Troll is the VAT registration number, but seeing as rail travel is (I believe?) VAT exempt it doesn't actually matter.
Which as I said is great, but that ignores the fact that many employers WILL want the ticket. Regardless of what the law says they need. And those employers are a lot less likely to change than the railway allowing people to keep used tickets. There is no reason why used tickets cannot be marked as used or void in some way at the end of their validity.
Problem with receipts is how do you know that either:
1. The journey wasn't abandoned due to a cancelled train and the ticket was refunded?
2. A receipt isn't submitted by one person to one employer with the corresponding ticket submitted by another person to a different employer?
If someone's that determined to defraud their employer then they'll do it regardless of whether the employer has a ticket.
I'm not so sure it is legal for an employer to demand the ticket before reimbursing the employee
Of course the law is as it is, and the industry can choose to do nothing about it. That is their choice. Meanwhile the employers who insist on tickets being submitted (incorrectly it may be) are also unlikely to change their ways. It is always the poor passenger who ends up losing out.....
The receipt I got was from the ticket office, it wasn't from a TVM.....
....There is no reason why used tickets cannot be marked as used or void in some way at the end of their validity.....
So we know it's not really the railway's fault, nor is it the passenger or HMRC. So who do people ask to change their ways? Oh that's right, it's the railway.....
Are you sure? It looks to me like a TVM or Advantix issued receipt.