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Do I have any right to keep my train ticket after the journey?

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hairyhandedfool

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I'm pretty sure that the level of trust between employer and employee is of no concern to the railway.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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So from what DaveNewcastle has posted, you should decline to hand over a ticket without a receipt some other official proof of ticket purchase until you're off railway property as that's when your journey finishes, according to the law. That's taking the safest opinion of course.

That should lead to some interesting conversations!
island has already refuted this conclusion. But for completeness, I should do so myself as well.

That is not a rational deduction from the facts and, in particular, from the judgement in Bremme. The facts are that a passenger without a ticket may be required to produce it for inspection. That requirement might arise more than once during travel. That inspection may take place during travel or subsequently while still on railway premises. Having satisfied an inspection after every element of their travel, the fare paying passenger will have fulfilled their obligation to produce their ticket. The non-ticket holding passenger however, may encounter further requests to present a ticket. That could extend beyond the scope of Bremme and may include a request to produce a ticket beyond railway premises.

I'd be grateful if you did not attempt to give advice to passengers without good reason to support the accuracy of that advice and the ability to provide references should the matter require them in a subsequent challenge. Thank you.
 
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westv

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Can't be many other places where you'd get a 7 page discussion about a small piece of cardboard. :D
 

Deerfold

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Can't be many other places where you'd get a 7 page discussion about a small piece of cardboard. :D

My small piece of cardboard is the most expensive thing I've ever bought. 7 of the 10 most expensive things I've ever bought have been small pieces of cardboard. :D
 

Peter Mugridge

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If you submit a petrol receipt for mileage reimbursement does it detail the actual journey undertaken?

I thought the mileage rate included a fuel allowance so you have to detail your mileage in an expense claim and you get a certain HMRC-dictated sum per mile back? So you shouldn't need to claim the petrol separately anyway?
 

dcsprior

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I thought the mileage rate included a fuel allowance so you have to detail your mileage in an expense claim and you get a certain HMRC-dictated sum per mile back? So you shouldn't need to claim the petrol separately anyway?
My other half drives her own car for work and gets her employer's mileage rate, but in addition to her mileage return she has to submit VAT receipts for fuel worth at least as much as she claims.

What on earth happens if your fuel usage is less than you claim as mileage (given that the mileage allowance is meant to cover additional wear & tear, as well as just fuel this is possible) or if you claim the pushbike allowance, I do not know.
 

LateThanNever

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My other half drives her own car for work and gets her employer's mileage rate, but in addition to her mileage return she has to submit VAT receipts for fuel worth at least as much as she claims.

What on earth happens if your fuel usage is less than you claim as mileage (given that the mileage allowance is meant to cover additional wear & tear, as well as just fuel this is possible) or if you claim the pushbike allowance, I do not know.

That sounds highly dubious. Would surmise the employer is paying the mileage allowance but claiming back the VAT on fuel as if it was spent on a company vehicle. Or it's a mistake.
If she feels able I would definitely query this as hers is not a company car!
 

dcsprior

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That sounds highly dubious. Would surmise the employer is paying the mileage allowance but claiming back the VAT on fuel as if it was spent on a company vehicle. Or it's a mistake.
If she feels able I would definitely query this as hers is not a company car!
As I understand it, nothing at all happens with the fuel receipts other than being kept "in case they get checked"

The employer is a local authority so I'd be tempted to assume mindless bureaucracy rather than anything more sinister :)
 

DarloRich

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I know many people who have to hand over both the VAT receipt AND the ticket for expenses purposes. My former employer used to insist on the same arrangements. If you didnt have both items you didn't get the money back.

The barrier staff never got my tickets. Most often a polite word at the gate did the job. Very occasionally one had to insist rather forcefully on having the ticket returned.

it shouldn't be difficult. The barrier staff can mark the ticket to show it has been used and give it back. Easy really.
 

LateThanNever

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As I understand it, nothing at all happens with the fuel receipts other than being kept "in case they get checked"

The employer is a local authority so I'd be tempted to assume mindless bureaucracy rather than anything more sinister :)

But the problem is "at least as much as she claims". That is incorrect and unwarranted. If she travelled only on local authority business then it would not be possible! If they use it as a sort of check that she is not over egging the pudding then fine. But they are being a little unsubtle and/or heavy handed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So from what DaveNewcastle has posted, you should decline to hand over a ticket without a receipt some other official proof of ticket purchase until you're off railway property as that's when your journey finishes, according to the law. That's taking the safest opinion of course.

That should lead to some interesting conversations!
island has already refuted this conclusion. But for completeness, I should do so myself as well.

That is not a rational deduction from the facts and, in particular, from the judgement in Bremme. The facts are that a passenger without a ticket may be required to produce it for inspection. That requirement might arise more than once during travel. That inspection may take place during travel or subsequently while still on railway premises. Having satisfied an inspection after every element of their travel, the fare paying passenger will have fulfilled their obligation to produce their ticket. The non-ticket holding passenger however, may encounter further requests to present a ticket. That could extend beyond the scope of Bremme and may include a request to produce a ticket beyond railway premises.

I'd be grateful if you did not attempt to give advice to passengers without good reason to support the accuracy of that advice and the ability to provide references should the matter require them in a subsequent challenge. Thank you.

Well, apart from the surreality of "a passenger without a ticket may be required to produce it for inspection", which may possibly be part of the problem!
the concept of ticket inspection/retention is absolutely fine when you go through a old-fashioned barrier in the traditional way (and British Rail always accepted that a ticket to travel was also a receipt.) Still, given that "inspection may take place during travel or subsequently while still on railway premises" and no-one has any idea how many times this may happen, surely it is very difficult - regrettably - to argue that a ticket is not required at all times on railway premises - more especially when, as so often these days, there is no obvious ticket barrier. G4S or their (hopefully more reputable) successors might accost you in the railway car park.
 

Hadders

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I thought the mileage rate included a fuel allowance so you have to detail your mileage in an expense claim and you get a certain HMRC-dictated sum per mile back? So you shouldn't need to claim the petrol separately anyway?

This is correct although an employer can pay less than the HMRC approved rate (mine does this and I can claim the tax back on the shortfall).

You have to submit a VAT rate so that the company can claim the VAT back on the fuel element of the mileage rate.
 

Tetchytyke

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The product purchased is clearly a rail ticket!

It demonstrates that I bought a rail ticket on that day, but doesn't state what rail ticket I bought.

If you submit a petrol receipt for mileage reimbursement does it detail the actual journey undertaken?

You don't submit a petrol receipt for a mileage reimbursement, because they are two entirely separate things.

The petrol receipt does itemise what I bought and how much of it I bought.

westv said:
Can't be many other places where you'd get a 7 page discussion about a small piece of cardboard.

My small piece of cardboard costs me the same amount of money as my rent.
 

WelshBluebird

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I'm pretty sure that the level of trust between employer and employee is of no concern to the railway.

It is if that means revenue is lost because the employee ends up using other means of transport rather than the railway as they are unable to keep tickets to be used for expenses claims.
 

najaB

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It is if that means revenue is lost because the employee ends up using other means of transport rather than the railway as they are unable to keep tickets to be used for expenses claims.
The fact remains that the TOC is under no obligation to allow the passenger to keep the ticket because the ticket is not required by HMRC or to comply with auditing regulations. The passenger's employer may want to see the ticket but it isn't required to comply with any law.

The only thing missing from the receipt posted up-thread by Arctic Troll is the VAT registration number, but seeing as rail travel is (I believe?) VAT exempt it doesn't actually matter.
 

bb21

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The fact remains that the TOC is under no obligation to allow the passenger to keep the ticket because the ticket is not required by HMRC or to comply with auditing regulations. The passenger's employer may want to see the ticket but it isn't required to comply with any law.

The only thing missing from the receipt posted up-thread by Arctic Troll is the VAT registration number, but seeing as rail travel is (I believe?) VAT exempt it doesn't actually matter.

Yes, I think everyone gets that. Part of the discussion is about how things can be improved.

"Because it is the way it is" and "it is your employer's problem" are incredibly arrogant attitudes when it has been pointed out numerous times in past threads that it takes very little effort from the rail industry to arrive at a mutually satisfactory solution.

For example, TIS receipts from many TOCs now detail exactly what tickets are bought. Why not do the same with TVM receipts? There are also several other solutions, which, if implemented, will mean happy customers for no real effort.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Is it not just as arrogant to demand the railway change because the company are inflexible on their more recent (and seemingly overly complex) expenses rules?
 

najaB

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..."it is your employer's problem" are incredibly arrogant attitudes...
It's not arrogance, it's a statement of fact - the employer is asking for more information than the TOC is obliged to provide in order to comply with HMRC requirements.
...There are also several other solutions, which, if implemented, will mean happy customers for no real effort.
I'm pretty sure that this actually affects a very small percentage of customers. In my experience, the majority of customers don't even need a receipt because they are travelling on their own dime. Of those who need to claim for the journey, I'm willing to bet that most don't need any more information than is contained on the current receipt.

Given that more often than not the gateline staff will let you keep the ticket if you ask nicely, it really seems like a solution in search of a problem.
 

bb21

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Is it not just as arrogant to demand the railway change because the company are inflexible on their more recent (and seemingly overly complex) expenses rules?

Of course the law is as it is, and the industry can choose to do nothing about it. That is their choice. Meanwhile the employers who insist on tickets being submitted (incorrectly it may be) are also unlikely to change their ways. It is always the poor passenger who ends up losing out. Some people may suggest that the passenger challenges their employer about the claims policy, but how many will want to be the guy who causes problems with the finance department, especially if you are new at the place?

If the industry doesn't want to do anything then there is nothing the passenger can do. The passenger cannot demand anything, only suggest it as things currently stand. None of us can demand changes, but there are good reasons why things should change as I see it, and I (and many others) have given our reasons over multiple threads. From what I have seen, no one has given a reason as to why it should not/cannot be done other than "it is the way it has always been" or "it is not the railway's problem". One thing the poor passenger does have however is a choice in most cases, and should there be no compromise on this issue, then the obvious choice next time would be to drive.

As I said before, I (and everyone else on this thread) understand the fact that HMRC do not require actual tickets to be handed in for claims, but that is not what is causing disagreements.

It's not arrogance, it's a statement of fact - the employer is asking for more information than the TOC is obliged to provide in order to comply with HMRC requirements.I'm pretty sure that this actually affects a very small percentage of customers. In my experience, the majority of customers don't even need a receipt because they are travelling on their own dime. Of those who need to claim for the journey, I'm willing to bet that most don't need any more information than is contained on the current receipt.

I have no doubt that it affects a small number of passengers. AFAIK no train company insists that this is enforced rigorously and I know several TOCs who recommend that staff allow passengers to keep tickets for claims purposes. I am glad that it is the case and shows that the industry can use common sense.

What you cannot deny is that some employers do insist on actual tickets being handed in, and some railway staff do insist that all tickets are collected from passengers on expiry, whether off their own back or upon instructions from higher management, regardless of any individual circumstances. That is all legal, of course, but what is legal is not always what is the best way forward for all parties concerned. These members of staff cause unnecessary conflicts and arguments and give the whole industry a bad name (whether justified or not) unnecessarily.

Some railway staff have mentioned the need for the legislation to be there in order to facilitate certain actions in their day-to-day job, such as the withdrawal of tickets which give rise to suspicions of foul play. I fully appreciate this, and I have no desire for wholesale changes in relevant legislation, or at all even. What I have always said is that there are simple things that can be implemented which can eliminate the aforementioned risks of unnecessary conflict, at little or no cost to the rail companies.

My comment on arrogance was not aimed at you, but rather the general atmosphere that sometimes fill these threads that the passenger just has to like it or lump it. Yes, it may be a statement of fact, but that does not prevent such an attitude from being arrogant.

Given that more often than not the gateline staff will let you keep the ticket if you ask nicely, it really seems like a solution in search of a problem.

There is a problem, a small one granted, but one that causes unnecessary conflicts and hardship for the passenger concerned. Why does anyone think it should just be overlooked?

The solution does not even have to cost anything, just some instructions from higher management could be all that it takes to stop those who insist on taking tickets off everyone regardless of circumstances. It is this very fact that it does not require an expensive solution which gives me the opinion that the attitude mentioned earlier is arrogance more than anything else.

All that is only on the issue of expenses. I have not even touched on the need to write to customer service yet. Before anyone asks, yes I have witnessed a relative being refused such a request and told to contact customer service with the receipt she was issued from a TVM. She was promptly told by customer service that she needs to retain her ticket next time and should use the manual barrier (but was given some compensation "as a goodwill gesture on a one-off basis" or words to that effect).
 

maniacmartin

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I'm not so sure it is legal for an employer to demand the ticket before reimbursing the employee
 

Tetchytyke

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For example, TIS receipts from many TOCs now detail exactly what tickets are bought. Why not do the same with TVM receipts?

The receipt I got was from the ticket office, it wasn't from a TVM.

Most employers need to know what ticket you bought, where it was from and where it was to, and for what day. This isn't unreasonable. On a £3.60 anytime day single from Bradford to Leeds it doesn't really matter, but when we're talking about a £200 return ticket to London it does matter. "Ticket £200" doesn't tell anyone what I actually bought, it doesn't show whether my ticket was actually £200 or whether I've chosen to reclaim a different ticket (e.g. a week's season ticket versus a cheaper advance ticket to London).

Railways need business customers because they are the ones who buy the high-value tickets. Mrs Grandma on her £25 advance ticket doesn't pay the bills, Mr Top Executive on his £500 first class ticket does. Setting out with an attitude of "like it or lump it" is not a good idea with these customers, because they will lump it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not so sure it is legal for an employer to demand the ticket before reimbursing the employee

Not only is it perfectly legal, you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of problems (and not just with HMRC) if you don't.

In order to pay out an expense there needs to be evidence that the expense was actually incurred.
 
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pemma

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Problem with receipts is how do you know that either:
1. The journey wasn't abandoned due to a cancelled train and the ticket was refunded?
2. A receipt isn't submitted by one person to one employer with the corresponding ticket submitted by another person to a different employer?
 

WelshBluebird

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The fact remains that the TOC is under no obligation to allow the passenger to keep the ticket because the ticket is not required by HMRC or to comply with auditing regulations. The passenger's employer may want to see the ticket but it isn't required to comply with any law.

The only thing missing from the receipt posted up-thread by Arctic Troll is the VAT registration number, but seeing as rail travel is (I believe?) VAT exempt it doesn't actually matter.

Which as I said is great, but that ignores the fact that many employers WILL want the ticket. Regardless of what the law says they need. And those employers are a lot less likely to change than the railway allowing people to keep used tickets. There is no reason why used tickets cannot be marked as used or void in some way at the end of their validity.

Of course, this is ignoring the fact the many many people do get to keep their used ticket regardless of what staff say, because they allight at stations without barriers / staff (or stations where the barriers have just been left open).
 

pemma

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Which as I said is great, but that ignores the fact that many employers WILL want the ticket. Regardless of what the law says they need. And those employers are a lot less likely to change than the railway allowing people to keep used tickets. There is no reason why used tickets cannot be marked as used or void in some way at the end of their validity.

The only way I can see that changing is for a receipt to be issued with every ticket issued, whether it be by ticket office, TVM or online. Then it the ticket is returned for a refund the receipt must be presented. If the receipt includes multiple items and only one if refunded then the receipt is returned to the customer with that item marked as refunded, otherwise the receipt is retained when the refund is issued.
 

Tetchytyke

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Problem with receipts is how do you know that either:
1. The journey wasn't abandoned due to a cancelled train and the ticket was refunded?
2. A receipt isn't submitted by one person to one employer with the corresponding ticket submitted by another person to a different employer?

If someone's that determined to defraud their employer then they'll do it regardless of whether the employer has a ticket.

There's a huge amount of whataboutery there, and it could apply to any expenditure.

I don't have an issue with the TOCs keeping the tickets, but their receipts need to show what I bought. Other than that, meh.
 

pemma

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If someone's that determined to defraud their employer then they'll do it regardless of whether the employer has a ticket.

Well obviously no system can prevent 100% of fraud but if you issue receipts and tickets and some employers accept receipts then it makes fraud easier.

If you buy coffee, tea and milk for your business and put that on expenses you aren't given two different documents which are accepted for expense claims, you just have the one receipt and if you return the coffee saying you bought the wrong type then it would be marked on your receipt when a refund is issued, if you don't produce a receipt then no refund.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Of course the law is as it is, and the industry can choose to do nothing about it. That is their choice. Meanwhile the employers who insist on tickets being submitted (incorrectly it may be) are also unlikely to change their ways. It is always the poor passenger who ends up losing out.....

So we know it's not really the railway's fault, nor is it the passenger or HMRC. So who do people ask to change their ways? Oh that's right, it's the railway.....

The receipt I got was from the ticket office, it wasn't from a TVM.....

Are you sure? It looks to me like a TVM or Advantix issued receipt. STAR and FasTis issue receipts on white paper roll and don't use that type of ticket stock. I'm sure Bradford Interchange ticket office would have had STAR or FasTis earlier in the year. The picture of the office on the National Rail website shows the receipt printer rolls, but there is no indication of when the picture was taken, or if they are FasTis or STAR machines in use. The numbers on the receipt also don't seem to match up with those I would expect for Bradford Interchange ticket office.

....There is no reason why used tickets cannot be marked as used or void in some way at the end of their validity.....

Void might indicate the ticket has been cancelled (non-issued tickets are marked "VOID"). Other marks that guards use are routinely noted on this forum as meaning nothing. Perhaps they should write "USED" in big letters when the last member of staff sees it.:roll:
 

bb21

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So we know it's not really the railway's fault, nor is it the passenger or HMRC. So who do people ask to change their ways? Oh that's right, it's the railway.....

Did you read what I said or did you just want to quote me selectively?

My point is not about whose fault it is. It is largely irrelevant. Finger-pointing is not going to change anything.
 

Tetchytyke

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Are you sure? It looks to me like a TVM or Advantix issued receipt.

No, I'm not sure, it was six months ago, it may have been a TVM now you mention it. Either way, it's useless.

The photo was taken at the time of the tweet, on the train from Bradford Interchange- it's a 158 table if you look closely ;) As it turned out I didn't lose the ticket at Leeds as I was able to go through the manual gate, but I was underwhelmed at thought of trying to use that receipt with my public-sector employer.
 
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