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Do not travel! [Kings Cross weekend closures Jan/Feb 2020]

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Andyh82

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Indeed. Personally I think a simple statement of facts is what's needed, along the lines of "no direct trains between x and y on z date", rather than meaningless instructions.
Or just say "no trains to Kings Cross" then.

I've seen the "don't travel" message in Leeds, which can't be good, given that most services using Leeds won't be affected anyway.
is that not what the image in the first post basically says?

No trains to KX, Do Not Travel, as any alternative route will be so unpleasant you’d wish you hadn’t.
 
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johnnychips

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Blimey! I really didn’t think this would promote so much discussion. I do think ‘however, trains will still operate to Retford, Grantham, Newark and Peterborough’ would have fitted in the space. Sincere Happy New Year to all!
 

transmanche

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is that not what the image in the first post basically says?

No trains to KX, Do Not Travel, as any alternative route will be so unpleasant you’d wish you hadn’t.
That's exactly what it says! Short and straight to the point, nothing else needs to be added.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Blimey! I really didn’t think this would promote so much discussion. I do think ‘however, trains will still operate to Retford, Grantham, Newark and Peterborough’ would have fitted in the space. Sincere Happy New Year to all!

Not at all, Johnny, you've raised a valid point about the inappropriate ways TOCs sometimes communicate details of forthcoming engineering work. I understand there are one or two LNER employees on here, so hopefully they might feed back to their PR team how unhelpful and unfriendly a bald "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is and how it could be better phrased.
 

Ianno87

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Not at all, Johnny, you've raised a valid point about the inappropriate ways TOCs sometimes communicate details of forthcoming engineering work. I understand there are one or two LNER employees on here, so hopefully they might feed back to their PR team how unhelpful and unfriendly a bald "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is and how it could be better phrased.

But, during the August Bank Holiday total blockade, it was incredibly effective. For its simplicity (even though, yes, not totally accurate)

Make the message too complicated, and it will get lost.
 

jon0844

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Nearer the time for the August blockade there were posters showing the alternative arrangements, but not shown in such a way that people would expect the service to be anywhere near as convenient.

I am sure anyone asking staff for more information were also given more information than what the poster was set out to communicate.

At the end of the day, King's Cross is not the only London station so people can find other ways to get to London for events, funerals or their first ever trip by train.
 

The Planner

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Not at all, Johnny, you've raised a valid point about the inappropriate ways TOCs sometimes communicate details of forthcoming engineering work. I understand there are one or two LNER employees on here, so hopefully they might feed back to their PR team how unhelpful and unfriendly a bald "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is and how it could be better phrased.
It would have been agreed by all the affected TOCs and NR in conjunction, not LNER on their own.
 

jon0844

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Exactly. There's even a website dedicated to it: https://eastcoastupgrade.co.uk/

The posters saying 'do not travel' also point to that URL for more information, whereby you can and will find out information on what to do if you absolutely must travel.

Anyone who saw the poster and thought 'S*** I have to travel that day' would almost certainly seek more detail from staff, the dedicated ECML upgrade site or their local TOC website.
 

ashkeba

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The vast majority of policies on the UK market cover UK travel if and only if a certain number of nights’ hotel accommodation (typically 3) have been prebooked.
Thank you! I thought it wouldn't be excluded.

Do you know if a "do not travel" from a TOC is normally enough to trigger payout or does it have to be police or government?
 

transmanche

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Do you know if a "do not travel" from a TOC is normally enough to trigger payout or does it have to be police or government?
When notice is being given so far in advance (e.g. the website is already advising that there are no trains to/from Kings Cross on 5 & 6 September 2020) I can't see an insurance company paying out.
 

island

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I’ve checked my own annual insurance policy and it does not cover this scenario (transport provider advising against travel). Other policies will no doubt vary.
 

800001

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Not at all, Johnny, you've raised a valid point about the inappropriate ways TOCs sometimes communicate details of forthcoming engineering work. I understand there are one or two LNER employees on here, so hopefully they might feed back to their PR team how unhelpful and unfriendly a bald "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is and how it could be better phrased.

The do not travel message is an industry message, agreed with Network Rail, Lner, Gtr and others, it is not Lner alone that created this message.

As other people have stated, its straight to the point and grabs peoples attention.

In addition there is posters etc at all stations lner etc operate.

It may seem a harsh message, but without it, you would get full trains of people been chucked off at Peterborough for the replacement bus to Bedford, which frankly would not cope.
 

theironroad

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The cost is borne by Schedule 4 compensation to the operators paid by Network Rail which is incorporated into track access charges, so overall it should be neutral (it isn't). The cost is fixed dependent on the length of possession and trains cancelled, it isn't "here is a bill, pay up" from the TOC. Unless someone wants to remove Schedule 4 as a whole or re-invent it, it isn't likely in the short term.

Thanks. If , for example, NR* say we need a 72hr possession between X and y and are going to cancel 1,000 trains and this is the compensation due to you TOC X, TOC Y and TOC Z.

So I'm guessing the compensation is deducted from the track access charges rather than paid as an extra sum.

However, do TOCs have freedom to do what they want with that notional 'compensation'?
Do they have to provide a certain amount of buses/taxis ?
Could they offer discounts if a RRB was involved through a % discount on the ticket bought.

*Edited to correct spelling from HNR to NR abbreviation.
 
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Mag_seven

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It may seem a harsh message, but without it, you would get full trains of people been chucked off at Peterborough for the replacement bus to Bedford, which frankly would not cope.

Well the rail industry should ensure there are enough buses to Bedford to cope. The rail industry should be pulling out all the stops to get everyone who wants to travel on that day to their destination for what are after all pre-planned works and not an emergency closure. Stating "Do not travel" is just throwing in the towel in my opinion.
 

Bantamzen

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I despair at this board. I really do. The messsge is to deter non essential travel during a period of disruption, limit impacts on already busy services ( despite the information above) and to reduce unrealistic expectations in the mind of the passengers as to joirney time and quality . It is also an attempt to minimise bad pr and reduce complaints.

I know I am wasting my time pointing all this out...........

It might seem like a waste of time, but sometimes you have to point out the blinking obvious.....

It does occur to me that 'No trains from this station to London Kings Cross on [dates]' is only slightly longer and is as clear, while being that bit more descriptive.

That said, while 'Do Not Travel' comes off as a bit odd, it's not necessarily wrong.

Virgin Trains used to use 'no trains at London Euston on [dates]' underneath every London-bound train on the summary of departures screens on the days leading up to the HS2 closures. That definitely caught people's attention.

However that might sound to the ordinary passenger that there will still be the same capacity, just not going to Kings Cross.

Well the rail industry should ensure there are enough buses to Bedford to cope. The rail industry should be pulling out all the stops to get everyone who wants to travel on that day to their destination for what are after all pre-planned works and not an emergency closure. Stating "Do not travel" is just throwing in the towel in my opinion.

Enough buses to replace all LNER services into London. That's a lot of buses, a lot!

Why can't people just accept that there will be much less capacity to travel by train into London during the works instead of expecting the near impossible?
 

CaptainHaddock

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Well the rail industry should ensure there are enough buses to Bedford to cope. The rail industry should be pulling out all the stops to get everyone who wants to travel on that day to their destination for what are after all pre-planned works and not an emergency closure. Stating "Do not travel" is just throwing in the towel in my opinion.

Spot on. In what other industry would businesses turn customers away simply because they couldn't be bothered to put on an adequate service?
 

transmanche

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In what other industry would businesses turn customers away simply because they couldn't be bothered to put on an adequate service?
You mean like when my local branch of Greggs 'turned away customers' recently simply because they 'they couldn't be bothered to put on an adequate service' and were close because they were 'renovating the shop'?
 

ashkeba

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You mean like when my local branch of Greggs 'turned away customers' recently simply because they 'they couldn't be bothered to put on an adequate service' and were close because they were 'renovating the shop'?
But presumably it did not closed when a shop three towns away was being renovated and the delivery wagon had to travel a different route to normal?
 

Bletchleyite

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Enough buses to replace all LNER services into London. That's a lot of buses, a lot!

Why can't people just accept that there will be much less capacity to travel by train into London during the works instead of expecting the near impossible?

It can be done and it has been done - between MK and Euston every weekend during the WCRM in the early 2000s - a constant procession of coaches leaving about every 5 minutes or more...with about 5 people on each one as people just avoided it, which is why that kind of operation has not generally been repeated.
 

Mag_seven

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You mean like when my local branch of Greggs 'turned away customers' recently simply because they 'they couldn't be bothered to put on an adequate service' and were close because they were 'renovating the shop'?

And I'll bet they will have put a sign up showing where the nearest alternative branch of Greggs was rather than a sign saying "DON'T SHOP AT GREGGS". :)
 

Bantamzen

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It can be done and it has been done - between MK and Euston every weekend during the WCRM in the early 2000s - a constant procession of coaches leaving about every 5 minutes or more...with about 5 people on each one as people just avoided it, which is why that kind of operation has not generally been repeated.

And what year is it now? (Think debate about accessible RRBs)

Besides, just because enough buses could be found then doesn't mean that 20 years on they still can be. Deep into the world of privatisation bus/coach operators may no longer have the capacity to supply them.
 

SouthStand

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It's FA Cup (round four) weekend so we won't know what matches are taking place until after the third round is completed There are, of course, sets of fixtures in the Championship and leagues one and two already scheduled but some of these will obviously be postponed due to clubs winning their third round ties. If it goes ahead due to both clubs being knocked out in round three, the most prominent league fixture I could see being impacted is the Championship match between Leeds and Millwall.

Certainly won't be any Millwall fans affected, they never bring any to ER lol.
 

Bletchleyite

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And what year is it now? (Think debate about accessible RRBs)

That debate does change matters, but today and for the following 30 days it could still be done.

Besides, just because enough buses could be found then doesn't mean that 20 years on they still can be. Deep into the world of privatisation bus/coach operators may no longer have the capacity to supply them.

I very much doubt that. There are still plenty of coach companies out there, hiring coaches is not at all difficult. The reason it hasn't been done like that again is that it was a waste of money - people largely drove to other railheads (or all the way) and so it carried a load of fresh air. So it wasn't worth doing it, but it doesn't mean it's not possible to do it.
 

transmanche

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And I'll bet they will have put a sign up showing where the nearest alternative branch of Greggs was rather than a sign saying "DON'T SHOP AT GREGGS". :)
Do you know, I don't think they did put up a sign saying where the nearest Greggs was.

Following the logic of some on here, they should have put a 'sandwich and pasty shop replacement van' outside the shop being renovated. But as it happened, I guess some people took the more expensive route and went to M&S, others went to the branch of Milligans (but had to queue for much longer) and I guess some just had a sandwich at home instead.
 

Bantamzen

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That debate does change matters, but today and for the following 30 days it could still be done.



I very much doubt that. There are still plenty of coach companies out there, hiring coaches is not at all difficult. The reason it hasn't been done like that again is that it was a waste of money - people largely drove to other railheads (or all the way) and so it carried a load of fresh air. So it wasn't worth doing it, but it doesn't mean it's not possible to do it.

Hiring that number of buses will be difficult, especially for charters into London. To replace seat for seat would need hundreds of buses / coaches made available. As has been discussed before in other threads, companies don't have fleets of buses lying around, and many operators have gone to the wall in the last two decades. It might be theoretically possible, but not in reality.
 
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