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Do not travel! [Kings Cross weekend closures Jan/Feb 2020]

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Harbon 1

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If only Cross Country knew about this in advance so they could double up their Voyagers on the busier services....
I mean that’s almost as if there isn’t any extra capacity to cater for the lack of LNER service, maybe LNER could be responsible and tell the vast majority of their passengers not to travel that weekend, so it doesn’t crush load other operators like cross country who can’t pluck voyagers out of thin air...
 
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hwl

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I mean that’s almost as if there isn’t any extra capacity to cater for the lack of LNER service, maybe LNER could be responsible and tell the vast majority of their passengers not to travel that weekend, so it doesn’t crush load other operators like cross country who can’t pluck voyagers out of thin air...
Last time LNER had HSTs that they loaned to XC - this time the don't.

At least this time there the Newark flat crossing isn't being renewed so LNER are operating a 2-3tph service north of Peterborough which should address the demand for travel north of Peterborough.
 

45107

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If only Cross Country knew about this in advance so they could double up their Voyagers on the busier services....
With what ? I don’t know the planned availability of Voyagers, but I suspect that there would only be 1 or 2 spare sets available.
 

hwl

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With what ? I don’t know the planned availability of Voyagers, but I suspect that there would only be 1 or 2 spare sets available.
Exactly - last time LNER loaned them HSTs...
 

Envy123

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My mother does need to travel on Saturdays from Huntingdon to London. I suggested to her to drive to Bedford, park there and take the train from there. Worked out really well.

It is disappointing that there is no RRB that takes you from the Peterborough branch to Bedford and that if it's essential to travel to central London on the weekend, you have to have your own wheels. On the other side, the logistics of it may just be too much.

Edit: Of course, this is talking about the ECML upgrades that are happening now.
 

717001

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My mother does need to travel on Saturdays from Huntingdon to London. I suggested to her to drive to Bedford, park there and take the train from there. Worked out really well.

It is disappointing that there is no RRB that takes you from the Peterborough branch to Bedford and that if it's essential to travel to central London on the weekend, you have to have your own wheels. On the other side, the logistics of it may just be too much.

Edit: Of course, this is talking about the ECML upgrades that are happening now.
On the weekends with full closures a rail replacement bus service is due to run between St Neots and Bedford, linking the 2 lines.

Also one between Stevenage - Luton Airport Parkway and another Hatfield - St Albans. This is alongside north - south buses.
 

Envy123

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On the weekends with full closures a rail replacement bus service is due to run between St Neots and Bedford, linking the 2 lines.

Also one between Stevenage - Luton Airport Parkway and another Hatfield - St Albans. This is alongside north - south buses.

Really? Because I was told by staff at Huntingdon that going fully by public transport means taking a bus to Hitchin, which takes 2 hours, and then change there for a bus to Luton Airport Parkway. That's why I suggested that my mother drives to Bedford instead.
 

stut

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Also one between Stevenage - Luton Airport Parkway and another Hatfield - St Albans. This is alongside north - south buses.

The timetable for the North-South buses is curious. They appear to be Peterborough-Huntingdon, Huntingdon-St Neots, St Neots-Hitchin. So if I wanted to travel north from Biggleswade, I'm faced with three buses just to get to Peterborough. Is this for the sake of reliability?
 

717001

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Really? Because I was told by staff at Huntingdon that going fully by public transport means taking a bus to Hitchin, which takes 2 hours, and then change there for a bus to Luton Airport Parkway. That's why I suggested that my mother drives to Bedford instead.
The extent of the closures between the 2 weekends vary and National Rail Enquiries seem to be offering a range of options. On Sat 25 Jan there is an hourly bus service leaving Huntingdon eg at 10:05 which gets to St Pancras at 13:04, changing at St Neots (bus) and Bedford (train).
Driving by car to Bedford, or another MML station, is certainly likely to be considerably quicker.
 

CaptainHaddock

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It's FA Cup (round four) weekend so we won't know what matches are taking place until after the third round is completed There are, of course, sets of fixtures in the Championship and leagues one and two already scheduled but some of these will obviously be postponed due to clubs winning their third round ties. If it goes ahead due to both clubs being knocked out in round three, the most prominent league fixture I could see being impacted is the Championship match between Leeds and Millwall.

Both Sheffield clubs have been drawn away to London teams that weekend; Wednesday at QPR, United at Millwall. I suspect East Midlands Railway will not be very happy about that.....I wouldn't want to be the EMR PR guy telling hordes of football fans "DO NOT TRAVEL TO LONDON!"
 

The Planner

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Both Sheffield clubs have been drawn away to London teams that weekend; Wednesday at QPR, United at Millwall. I suspect East Midlands Railway will not be very happy about that.....I wouldn't want to be the EMR PR guy telling hordes of football fans "DO NOT TRAVEL TO LONDON!"
Why would EMR tell them not to travel, isn't this a LNER problem? And cup draws are not an exactly new phenomenon which train operators have to deal with. Away clubs can only claim up to 15% of the home stadium anyway, so 2000 odd for QPR and 3000 for Millwall, and there is no way that all those fans even if they sell out are going on the train anyway.
 

merry

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The coordination of alternative routes is, sadly, not terribly impressive for those who must travel, and don't have an alternative.

I was advising a colleague yesterday about 9th Feb travel. He is not able to fly for health reasons, and we do not want him to try driving to Amsterdam from Newark! Coach travel is also more difficult for him. But of course, there are trains from London to Amterdam. Easy, you might think. Direct train leaves STP at 1104, and regular indirects changing Brussels...
...but the ECML is down to a fraction of the usual service, starring later, and no timetable actually published yet, so you can't plan. And the MML is also closed that morning, which makes any journey hopeless on a Sunday morning by rail.

The fail here is coordination over alternate routes, both to avoid simultaneous closures and a system that discourages alternate routes from providing sufficient extra capacity ( e.g. in this case, using all those recently released HSTs or the new diesel capacity of some Azuma units).
Not entirely a fault of EastCoast, Network Rail or EMR individually, but an industry aporoach and policy that doesn't make it viable to work together providing alternatives effectively.
Not going to be fixed without some fundamental rewrites of responsibilities and policy, either. Hohum. There is not the political will to do it either, I suspect, as it removes commercial freedoms further.
 

30907

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...but the ECML is down to a fraction of the usual service, starring later, and no timetable actually published yet, so you can't plan. And the MML is also closed that morning, which makes any journey hopeless on a Sunday morning by rail.
4 trains per hour is a pretty big fraction of the normal ECML service, and it starts at the normal time with about a 10minute delay. That presumably explained why a closure on the MML has been permitted.
 

merry

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Unfortunately the timetable is not yet published and has no due date either. Which is getting a bit late (4 weeks or so). Read the notes on NRE to see this (the default times are returned righg now) - or look at EastCoast who will not offer times yet.
From previous experience it's likely to add 30-45 mins to journey times, if less that will be great, but i will not hold my breath.
 

30907

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Unfortunately the timetable is not yet published and has no due date either. Which is getting a bit late (4 weeks or so). Read the notes on NRE to see this (the default times are returned righg now) - or look at EastCoast who will not offer times yet.
From previous experience it's likely to add 30-45 mins to journey times, if less that will be great, but i will not hold my breath.
Apologies for late response: I went to RTT which has the draft amended times. This fits with the LNER website which speaks of a reduced service but not of significant delays.
 

Ianno87

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The coordination of alternative routes is, sadly, not terribly impressive for those who must travel, and don't have an alternative.

I was advising a colleague yesterday about 9th Feb travel. He is not able to fly for health reasons, and we do not want him to try driving to Amsterdam from Newark! Coach travel is also more difficult for him. But of course, there are trains from London to Amterdam. Easy, you might think. Direct train leaves STP at 1104, and regular indirects changing Brussels...
...but the ECML is down to a fraction of the usual service, starring later, and no timetable actually published yet, so you can't plan. And the MML is also closed that morning, which makes any journey hopeless on a Sunday morning by rail.

Takes a bit longer, but what about Newark - Peterborough - Ipswich - Harwich - [Ferry] - Hook of Holland - Amsterdam....?
 

Deerfold

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I'd seen this message and thought how good it was that I didn't need to travel that weekend.

I was surprised to find out that on the first 10 weeks of 2020 there are 3 weekends where we are advised to NOT TRAVEL.

I was also surprised by the extra 3 hours with an extra 2 changes that my journey on one of the weekends where this service is not given will take. And that will apply for the other 7 of the first 10 weekends of the year.
 

ashkeba

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Really? Because I was told by staff at Huntingdon that going fully by public transport means taking a bus to Hitchin, which takes 2 hours, and then change there for a bus to Luton Airport Parkway. That's why I suggested that my mother drives to Bedford instead.
Odd. I would expect even the busway to Cambridge and taking a Liverpool St service to beat that, if you are not returning home late.
 

A0wen

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Odd. I would expect even the busway to Cambridge and taking a Liverpool St service to beat that, if you are not returning home late.

GTR staff would be advising of the approved alternative - in other words what would be valid to travel on with a GTR ticket from Huntingdon to London, not alternatives where there is no ticket acceptance in place - which I assume there isn't for the busway and possibly isn't for a Huntingdon ticket to travel with GA from Cambridge?
 

ashkeba

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GTR staff would be advising of the approved alternative - in other words what would be valid to travel on with a GTR ticket from Huntingdon to London, not alternatives where there is no ticket acceptance in place - which I assume there isn't for the busway and possibly isn't for a Huntingdon ticket to travel with GA from Cambridge?
Maybe. The UK is awful at ticket acceptance. Even if so, I feel they should not have limited their reply like that if they were only asked for "by public transport" and not "by train ticket from here". Maybe GTR would rather encourage driving if it keeps passengers buying Thameslink tickets, rather than give any sales to GA.
 

A0wen

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Maybe. The UK is awful at ticket acceptance. Even if so, I feel they should not have limited their reply like that if they were only asked for "by public transport" and not "by train ticket from here". Maybe GTR would rather encourage driving if it keeps passengers buying Thameslink tickets, rather than give any sales to GA.

Daft response - why should the railway ticket office have to know all the permutations for a local bus service they have no control over ? Follow that logic and at a station like Birmingham International the train ticket office should also be able to advise about Nat Ex / Megabus coaches and air services - none of which offer ticket acceptance either.

The train company are doing exactly the right thing - they can't provide their usual service but are putting in place a dedicated alternative to minimise inconvenience to their customers. They're not trying to dump the problem on somebody else or cause overcrowding on publicly available services.
 

ashkeba

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Daft response - why should the railway ticket office have to know all the permutations for a local bus service they have no control over ? Follow that logic and at a station like Birmingham International the train ticket office should also be able to advise about Nat Ex / Megabus coaches and air services - none of which offer ticket acceptance either.
That seems quite logical to me for days when Birmingham International has no train service! And they do not have to know "all the permutations" but it would seem sensible for GTR to know the alternatives available for passengers going from their station to what is probably their biggest volume destination!

Maybe this is something where a foreign eye sees things without the blinkers of local history? I just expect public transport to work together for the benefit of the public and not care if that means sending passengers to a bus company or ferry company or whatever for part of their journey.
 

Deerfold

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I'm quite surprised how poor the provided alternatives are. I've managed to avoid having to travel between Leeds and London on on the weekend of the 25th, but will still need to travel between Welwyn Garden City and London. The suggested route takes 1h58 minutes using 2 rail replacement buses (with just 21 minutes on a train). There's 1 journey opportunity an hour instead of 4. I would have thought a rail-replacement bus to St Albans wouldn't have been that hard to provide.

If I were to get the normal bus to St Albans I could be 40 minutes quicker (but a little out of pocket).
 
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ashkeba

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I'm quite surprised how poor the provided alternatives are. I've managed to avoid having to travel between Leeds and London on on the weekend of the 25th, but will still need to travel between Welwyn Garden City and London. The suggested route takes 1h58 minutes using 2 rail replacement buses (with just 21 minutes on a train). There's 1 journey opportunity an hour instead of 4. I would have thought a rail-replacement bus to St Albans wouldn't have been that hard to provide.
Just take the regular half-hourly 301 Stevenage-WGC-Hatfield-St Albans direct bus. Hourly from mid evenings. About 50 minutes to St Albans station, then 21mins on the train. It's disappointing GTR won't suggest that and work with Arriva to try to bolster capacity.
 

hwl

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Just take the regular half-hourly 301 Stevenage-WGC-Hatfield-St Albans direct bus. Hourly from mid evenings. About 50 minutes to St Albans station, then 21mins on the train. It's disappointing GTR won't suggest that and work with Arriva to try to bolster capacity.
GTR probably worried about all the extra passengers on the TL-MML services already given the RRBs from Peterborough.
 

Failed Unit

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GTR probably worried about all the extra passengers on the TL-MML services already given the RRBs from Peterborough.
Also when you consider the number of passengers at Hatfield and WGC the bus wouldn’t cope even if it was a double decker.

I have always wondered why the Rail Replacement Buses don’t run to St Albans. I guess that is extra buses that are difficult to source. In the past they have gone to a LUL station (normally Cockfosters) but the often haven’t advertised that well.
 

ashkeba

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Also when you consider the number of passengers at Hatfield and WGC the bus wouldn’t cope even if it was a double decker.
Really? https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...k-holiday-routing.183750/page-15#post-4172080 described them as "quiet" during a previous full closure.

I have always wondered why the Rail Replacement Buses don’t run to St Albans. I guess that is extra buses that are difficult to source. In the past they have gone to a LUL station (normally Cockfosters) but the often haven’t advertised that well.
If they are worrying about capacity on Thameslink with the Peterborough-Bedford diverted passengers, it may be better to run buses from WGC to Hertford East, 25mins away, and it's then a 50 minute half-hourly service to Liverpool Street.
 

Failed Unit

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Really? https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...k-holiday-routing.183750/page-15#post-4172080 described them as "quiet" during a previous full closure.


If they are worrying about capacity on Thameslink with the Peterborough-Bedford diverted passengers, it may be better to run buses from WGC to Hertford East, 25mins away, and it's then a 50 minute half-hourly service to Liverpool Street.

maybe because rail passengers were not directed towards them. Most trains from WGC - London kings cross at the weekend have enough passengers to fill that bus alone. For me personally it takes to long so I would drive to Harpenden. (Other in the area may just drive to St Albans).

So maybe the local bus service may be able to cope with the passengers with no choice but to use public transport.
 

jon0844

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I know GA strengthened their services last August, but they probably can't easily accept all of the usual ECML (and Hertford Loop) traffic on their trains. Hertford East doesn't exactly run a very high frequency service. (That's why the buses ran to Cockfosters and then Oakwood (for accessible access) because the tube more likely could cope, as well as many being able to use local buses once in London - all accepting tickets).

It's all about not offering alternatives that make people think it's fine to travel after all. It really should be a case of people NOT travelling unless they absolutely have to. If alternative train services are advertised, then people will consider a shopping trip to be 'essential' and then get extremely upset when they can't board that 1 8 car train running every 30 minutes, which now has about 10 trains worth of people.

Last August was very quiet because the warnings worked. Yes, some people just turned up and got a shock as they weren't aware, but it was likely minimal and they were able to use the buses.

Most people who did have to travel also made alternative arrangements to get to a more convenient station.
 

Failed Unit

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I would be surprised if St Albans couldn’t absorb the demand to be honest. But maybe someone who travels on that route could correct me.

one thing that they didn’t do in the August closure was run buses in the TFL area. Not really a surprise when you look at the stations involved and all having underground stations with 2 miles.
 
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