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Do not travel! [Kings Cross weekend closures Jan/Feb 2020]

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ashkeba

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It's all about not offering alternatives that make people think it's fine to travel after all. It really should be a case of people NOT travelling unless they absolutely have to. If alternative train services are advertised, then people will consider a shopping trip to be 'essential' and then get extremely upset when they can't board that 1 8 car train running every 30 minutes, which now has about 10 trains worth of people.
No service involving a bus and extra journey time is going to make people think it's fine to travel. People hate replacement buses. Why should GTR be so punitive for those people at WGC who do have to travel, apparently directing them to 1h30 of replacement buses and 21min of train instead of 50min of bus and 21min of train or possibly 25min of bus and 50 min of train. Is screwing over those who believe GTR really worth it to discourage probably zero shoppers who think nothing's wrong if their journey takes an extra hour but won't go if it takes an extra 1½ hours?

Most people who did have to travel also made alternative arrangements to get to a more convenient station.
Probably most of them drove because public transport were being stupid about it. That would explain the quiet stations too.
 
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jon0844

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No service involving a bus and extra journey time is going to make people think it's fine to travel. People hate replacement buses. Why should GTR be so punitive for those people at WGC who do have to travel, apparently directing them to 1h30 of replacement buses and 21min of train instead of 50min of bus and 21min of train or possibly 25min of bus and 50 min of train. Is screwing over those who believe GTR really worth it to discourage probably zero shoppers who think nothing's wrong if their journey takes an extra hour but won't go if it takes an extra 1½ hours?

Why wouldn't you get the bus from WGC or Hatfield to St Albans and travel from there, if you didn't want such a long journey?

People may hate replacement buses, but buses are what is offered when there are no trains.

If that is not acceptable, I guess that proves that the journey is not essential.
 

Failed Unit

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Why wouldn't you get the bus from WGC or Hatfield to St Albans and travel from there, if you didn't want such a long journey?

People may hate replacement buses, but buses are what is offered when there are no trains.

If that is not acceptable, I guess that proves that the journey is not essential.

As devils advocate some people travelling may not know about the local bus services in the area. So if it appeared in a journey planner then it may make a difference.

But the notice does work. If I have no choice I drive to the MML. If I have a choice I travel another weekend. As we know about these closures well in advance i personally already have the dates in my calendar to avoid going to London those weekends.

Even I get caught out in the evenings and have had to get the bus back from Stevenage and thinking I should really pay attention to the notices. One thing that I do think is a pity is that they don’t (as far as I know) make WGC tickets valid on the MML during engineering works no matter how you chose to get there.
 

Deerfold

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Why wouldn't you get the bus from WGC or Hatfield to St Albans and travel from there, if you didn't want such a long journey?

Because it adds about 50% to the cost of the journey if you're doing a return. If travelling to Welwyn Garden City your last service is effectively 3 hours earlier. It may be what I end up doing anyway, but I can see why people might not.

People may hate replacement buses, but buses are what is offered when there are no trains.

I don't think anyone's complaining about that. But replacing 1 rail journey from a reasonably sized town in Hertfordshire to London with 2 seperate rail replacement buses (with a wait of 30 minutes between them) and then a train seems to be being annoying for the sake of it (I don't think I've come across Rail Replacement buses that neither go to the end of the line nor connect with a train before now). And having 1 bus an hour instead of 4 trains an hour also seems fairly poor.

If that is not acceptable, I guess that proves that the journey is not essential.

My journey is essential - I'm working in Welwyn GC one week then London the next - I'm moving from one to another instead of returning home to Yorkshire in between as I was advised "do not travel" with the corresponding extra hotel costs. I expected bus replacement from Welwyn Garden City, but hadn't expected it to be so complicated.

There also does not seem to be anywhere to actually find what is running in case you can get to a station with an easier service. The dedicated website for the closures just links to a rail planner.

I'm working again in Welwyn near the February closure date. That'll be the first long distance drive since last summer as I've been trying to do train travel wherever possible.
 

Bald Rick

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I would be surprised if St Albans couldn’t absorb the demand to be honest. But maybe someone who travels on that route could correct me.

Regularly people standing on the fast services from St Albans to London on Saturday and Sunday mornings, and that’s on a normal weekend.
 

717001

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I’ve seen new posters at GTR stations in the last day or so showing the replacement bus routes linking to other lines.
There is a bus between Hatfield and St Albans, and another linking the north south bus route through to LU - Potters Bar to Cockfosters / Oakwood. Several others too.
Should all be showing in journey planners, but there will be limited capacity due to the overall scale of the closure.
 

Failed Unit

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The bus service is very limited. 1 per hour.

If I wanted to go to London then my journey would be for example.

0917 Bus Welwyn GC - Hatfield. 0927
1000 Bus Hatfield- St Albans 1025
1043 Train to London.

If I took the 301 bus I could leave WGC at 0925 and arrive at St Albans City at 1008. (So quicker but expensive and maybe full as it comes from Stevenage)

Or I could do what most people in WGC would do. Drive to Harpenden.
 

jon0844

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Regularly people standing on the fast services from St Albans to London on Saturday and Sunday mornings, and that’s on a normal weekend.

And the stoppers are half empty. Same as WGC with people preferring the faster services over those that start at WGC.
 

30907

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I’ve seen new posters at GTR stations in the last day or so showing the replacement bus routes linking to other lines.
There is a bus between Hatfield and St Albans, and another linking the north south bus route through to LU - Potters Bar to Cockfosters / Oakwood. Several others too.
Should all be showing in journey planners, but there will be limited capacity due to the overall scale of the closure.
They are showing in the GN planner, but with a 35min wait at Potters Bar which seems odd!
 

ChiefPlanner

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Regularly people standing on the fast services from St Albans to London on Saturday and Sunday mornings, and that’s on a normal weekend.

Can certainly vouch for that - last Saturday the loadings for an 11xx fast - was almost as bad as the morning peak - regrettably said 12 car had issues at Harpenden , blocking the up slow only luckily - so the passengers were advised to get the all stations out of the turnback siding , which set off (8 cars only of course) , which was "super peak crush" , everyone got on , but indicative of the level of buoyant off peak business there now is.

Everyone , got there .....
 

A0wen

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The bus service is very limited. 1 per hour.

If I wanted to go to London then my journey would be for example.

0917 Bus Welwyn GC - Hatfield. 0927
1000 Bus Hatfield- St Albans 1025
1043 Train to London.

If I took the 301 bus I could leave WGC at 0925 and arrive at St Albans City at 1008. (So quicker but expensive and maybe full as it comes from Stevenage)

Or I could do what most people in WGC would do. Drive to Harpenden.

In all the years I lived in WGC, I never drove to Harpenden to get the train. St Albans, yes or alternatively to the top of the Underground, so Cockfosters, Edgware, Stanmore or Canons Park.
 

Failed Unit

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In all the years I lived in WGC, I never drove to Harpenden to get the train. St Albans, yes or alternatively to the top of the Underground, so Cockfosters, Edgware, Stanmore or Canons Park.
Horses for courses. Most people I know drive to Harpenden because it has less traffic, better parking and more chance of getting a seat. However certain parts of the town St Albans would definitely be a better option.
 

A0wen

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Horses for courses. Most people I know drive to Harpenden because it has less traffic, better parking and more chance of getting a seat. However certain parts of the town St Albans would definitely be a better option.

Pretty much any part of the town it's easier to get to St A than Harpenden. But a quick blast down the A1 gets you to Stanmore or Edgware in the same time with loads of parking at either from memory. And the Jubilee from Stanmore's a fairly quick run to the west end.
 

ashkeba

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Pretty much any part of the town it's easier to get to St A than Harpenden.
Sat nav says 4 minutes faster driving to St A but I expect its car park is busier.

But a quick blast down the A1 gets you to Stanmore or Edgware in the same time with loads of parking at either from memory. And the Jubilee from Stanmore's a fairly quick run to the west end.
Sat nav says 45 minutes to Stanmore, compared to 30 to St A.

Edgware station has no parking of its own. The shopping centre next to it has a small long-stay car park but once that is full, the main car park was £12 for 4 hours. Stanmore has 500 spaces and you could try Elstree Thameslink on the way past fairly easily.
 

A0wen

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Sat nav says 4 minutes faster driving to St A but I expect its car park is busier.


Sat nav says 45 minutes to Stanmore, compared to 30 to St A.

Edgware station has no parking of its own. The shopping centre next to it has a small long-stay car park but once that is full, the main car park was £12 for 4 hours. Stanmore has 500 spaces and you could try Elstree Thameslink on the way past fairly easily.

Google Maps reckons just under 30 mins from WGC town centre to Stanmore which feels about right from my experience, so not sure why your SatNav reckons 45 mins?
 

jon0844

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St Albans has three car parks. One on each side of the station, and a new one further up the road (accessible via an underpass).
 

ChiefPlanner

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St Albans has three car parks. One on each side of the station, and a new one further up the road (accessible via an underpass).


Plus of course a superior service with "starting" local services - which are not bad to use - and with handy interface for London via West Hampstead.
 

ashkeba

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Google Maps reckons just under 30 mins from WGC town centre to Stanmore which feels about right from my experience, so not sure why your SatNav reckons 45 mins?
Because itismore realistic than Google which is laughably optimistic. That is why I use it.
 

jon0844

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Because itismore realistic than Google which is laughably optimistic. That is why I use it.

I use Waze, which is owned by Google, and ETAs are usually spot on. If you drive WGC to St Albans then going the back way (Coopers Green) is far easier and avoids the bottleneck. Pay for your parking via the Saba app and job done.
 

Bald Rick

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Because itismore realistic than Google which is laughably optimistic. That is why I use it.

I use Waze, which is owned by Google, and ETAs are usually spot on. If you drive WGC to St Albans then going the back way (Coopers Green) is far easier and avoids the bottleneck. Pay for your parking via the Saba app and job done.

I usually beat google ;)

Coopers Green Rd isn’t so clever when it’s dark and wet.
 

jon0844

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Never had an issue, although you can hit some very foggy patches sometimes. I have bright lights and the road surface isn't too bad for Hertfordshire standards.

Just slow for the junction with the Hatfield business park as that's a notorious blackspot.
 

Deerfold

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Back on topic, I'm surprised how little publicity there is at Welwyn Garden City.

It's on one screen on the cycle of train times but I've not seen any posters.

There's no detail at all on what services are available.
 

717001

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Back on topic, I'm surprised how little publicity there is at Welwyn Garden City.

It's on one screen on the cycle of train times but I've not seen any posters.

There's no detail at all on what services are available.
Have seen the poster with the bus routes etc on 2 platforms at WGC (but not by ticket office). Options are showing in National Rail Enquiries (and should show in other planners). More info here (link is Sat) https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/t...k?date=2020-01-25#engineering-departure-board
 

jon0844

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Back on topic, I'm surprised how little publicity there is at Welwyn Garden City.

It's on one screen on the cycle of train times but I've not seen any posters.

There's no detail at all on what services are available.

There are adhesive posters on the bridge, on the platforms, by the gates and leaflets with more details. Big orange ones, saying 'do not travel' although there are some newer ones which show where the rail replacement buses run (same as last August).

Only key difference is this time the buses are hourly, not half hourly, presumably as there were predictions of higher passenger numbers on a hot August weekend than late January.

The buses will run from Hitchin to Potters Bar (and back) via the basement of the Howard Centre. Buses will shuttle from Hatfield to St Albans, but as I said earlier, you'll be a LOT better off going to St Albans in the first place IMO. It's what I'll be doing.
 

Deerfold

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There are adhesive posters on the bridge, on the platforms, by the gates and leaflets with more details. Big orange ones, saying 'do not travel' although there are some newer ones which show where the rail replacement buses run (same as last August).

Only key difference is this time the buses are hourly, not half hourly, presumably as there were predictions of higher passenger numbers on a hot August weekend than late January.

The buses will run from Hitchin to Potters Bar (and back) via the basement of the Howard Centre. Buses will shuttle from Hatfield to St Albans, but as I said earlier, you'll be a LOT better off going to St Albans in the first place IMO. It's what I'll be doing.

Ah, I've just been passing the booking office in the shopping centre all week, as many occasional travellers will. There's no posters at all there.

Glad they're more numerous within the station.

I agree I'll be better going straight to St Albans as will anyone else who knows about it. Of course, having arrived in Hertfordshire by rail I'll have to add the cost of a bus or taxi to St Albans.
 

717001

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There’s another full closure weekend 29 Feb - 1 March, but anyone who was planning to move a trip one week earlier or later on the Sunday, should note there are no trains between Stevenage and Alexandra Palace via WGC for 6 Sunday’s, starting this weekend Sun 23 Feb.

Mainly set up in journey planners already - buses replicating slow and faster train calling patterns.

Details seem to vary between weeks, but distance trains reduced in number and routed via Hertford Loop. Fewer stopping trains along there on at least some of the Sundays.

Arsenal is at home this Sunday and Tottenham on 1 March - hope the fans know!
 

jopsuk

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Tottenham on 1 March - hope the fans know!
For three hours before the match there's 8 trains an hour in each direction that will be stopping at Northumberland Park, the same after the match, and 6tph at White Hart Lane. Would seem to be well set for that, with the visitors being Wolves there would be few fans likely to use the Kings Cross anyway
 

Mugby

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Have the closures of Kings Cross coincided with the closures of the Midland line between Bedford and Kettering on any of the recent weekends?
 

Skymonster

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Have the closures of Kings Cross coincided with the closures of the Midland line between Bedford and Kettering on any of the recent weekends?
I don't think even NR is that stupid. Tee MML is open this weekend and was during the previous KGX closure.
 
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