Do penalty fares apply on rail replacement buses?

[Samuel88]

I ask because I have never seen anyone check tickets on boarding a bus, indeed on a couple of occasions I've been told by the station staff not to bother buying a ticket if all my journey is done by bus!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Generally I find revenue protection doesn't apply, let alone PFs. One thing that's always surprised me is that if revenue guards aren't operating trains why they don't have to "conduct" replacement buses instead.

 

[221129]

Generally I find revenue protection doesn't apply, let alone PFs. One thing that's always surprised me is that if revenue guards aren't operating trains why they don't have to "conduct" replacement buses instead.

Because it's a bus...

 

[Talent]

They checked my ticket before boarding the PRE to BPN rail replacement bus (and return).

 

[gordonthemoron]

The first service from Northampton southbound on Sundays is a bus. They check tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it's a bus...

Clearly there are no safety duties for the guard to perform nor are they trained in those duties even if there were, but I don't see why they should not do revenue.

 

[Romilly]

On my last two RRBs, the bus-driver asked to see all rail tickets, but I think he just wanted to see something that looked like a rail ticket, as rather than checking from the tickets shown he was asking everyone individually whether they wanted a bus to the place he was about to drive to (rather than one in the opposite direction). In the past, I am sure I have experienced everything from full ticket checks, to no ticket checks, when using RRBs.

 

[Romilly]

To answer the question at #1, I have had a quick look at the Railways Act 1993, as section 130 of that Act appears to be the primary legislative provision under which rules and regulations about penalty fares are made. The wording of section 130 (with explicit references to trains and stations, and no references to buses), and the fact that the Act does mention bus substitution services when it wants to (see section 76 on the duties of the Passengers' Council), leads me to think that penalty fares cannot apply to travel on rail-replacement buses.

 

[aye2beeviasea]

I'd rather have RPIs helping out with crowd control and customer service, getting people to the right buses and recommending alternative routes, rather than using up a seat on the bus.

 

[Jonny]

I'd rather have RPIs helping out with crowd control and customer service, getting people to the right buses and recommending alternative routes, rather than using up a seat on the bus.

Would maybe a cursory ticket check along with helping them to the correct bus be a good idea?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Better would be helping them to the right bus then a cursory ticket check. Speaking as someone who took a while to find the RRB in Brighton. No, they are not where the normal busses stop.

 

[185143]

I'll normally show my saveaway to the driver of a Merseyside rail rep as they are normally Arriva buses, so the driver will know what my ticket is. They normally just wave people on in general.

During the loop track renewal, tickets were checked by Merseyrail RPIs (normally-sometimes just regular staff) on boarding the bus, making sure people knew which bus they were on at the time.

I boarded a rail rep at Salford Crescent a few years ago to Man Vic. The driver asked us if we had tickets, I went to get it and was promtly told 'I'm not bothered either way really-but they're fining people at the other end...' ('Penalty Fakes' of course in this case).

Slightly off topic, but I never managed to get a clear answer. Do the Merseyrail Byelaws apply to replacement buses...? (Feet on seats, no drinking ect) I asked a Byelaw Enforcement officer and the reply was pretty much 'That's a good question!'

I wonder if GTR would have been brave enough to PF anyone during the Redhill shambles of a few weeks ago...

 

[6Gman]

From the various replies I get the impression that long-term RRBs are more likely to see checks than short-term RRBs.

Which makes sense.

On the broader point I suspect that given that most passengers view RRBs in a pretty dim light already ticket checks might just tip them over the edge!

 

[Romilly]

Slightly off topic, but I never managed to get a clear answer. Do the Merseyrail Byelaws apply to replacement buses...? (Feet on seats, no drinking ect) I asked a Byelaw Enforcement officer and the reply was pretty much 'That's a good question!'

From looking at the Merseyrail Byelaws made in 2014, it would seem some of them are capable of applying to passenger travel on replacement buses, although most seem not to apply. Because some of the byelaws are about things done on "the railway" (as defined in the byelaws), they could apply while a replacement bus is parked in a station forecourt (rather than on a public road passing by the station). And the byelaw about the Operator being able to deny carriage to any animal is not limited expressly to trains, and the byelaw about being able to require queuing to regulate safety on "or near" the railway might extend to queuing on the street for an RRB.

But the owner of the bus may under the contract with the railway retain owner's rights to regulate behaviour on the bus.

 

[221129]

Clearly there are no safety duties for the guard to perform nor are they trained in those duties even if there were, but I don't see why they should not do revenue.

Why? What would be the point?

 

[pemma]

If the replacement bus operated by a double decker or a coach then they'll likely be restrictions on standing while the vehicle is in motion, which would make it difficult for someone not employed by the bus company to do revenue duties, other than as passengers board. Not so difficult on a single decker bus though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? What would be the point?

Two main things - the same point as any revenue protection, and ensuring that there is a representative of the railway on board at all times.

If the replacement bus operated by a double decker or a coach then they'll likely be restrictions on standing while the vehicle is in motion, which would make it difficult for someone not employed by the bus company to do revenue duties, other than as passengers board. Not so difficult on a single decker bus though.

True, though I wasn't necessarily suggesting it be done while the vehicle is in motion.

 

[221129]

The guards will likely be busy doing other things.

 

[Dhassell]

I boarded a rail replacement at Bristol Parkway Saturday, the attitude for me and other 10 passengers was make your way straight on, meanwhile I noticed people boarding buses at Swindon (A greater number of people, with it being the main hub for the rail reps) People where being told to have their tickets ready for inspection.

 

[LowLevel]

Generally I find revenue protection doesn't apply, let alone PFs. One thing that's always surprised me is that if revenue guards aren't operating trains why they don't have to "conduct" replacement buses instead.

Our diagrams usually get amended to do something else.

Revenue protection staff do quite often get deployed though.

 

[PeterC]

I would assume that a penalty fare would only apply if the bus was loading at within the penalty fare area of a station. Off hand I can't think of a station where that is physically possible.

 

[sheff1]

I would assume that a penalty fare would only apply if the bus was loading at within the penalty fare area of a station. Off hand I can't think of a station where that is physically possible.

What is "the penalty fare area of a station" ? I have never heard this term before.

 

[Dhassell]

What is "the penalty fare area of a station" ? I have never heard this term before.

Beyond the gateline I assume, or on a station with no gateline, I assume the train itself.

 

[fowler9]

When Arriva were operating the rail replacement buses during the last Lime Street shutdown most bus drivers told me they didn't care about tickets. This is of course except for one I have mentioned on the forums already. I got the Rail replacement bus from West Allerton to Lime Street on a Sunday evening. Briefly met a mate and went to get the same bus home about half an hour later. The driver noticed that a short while earlier I had got off his bus. He called me back and asked what I was doing, I stupidly made the effort to explain I had to briefly meet a mate. He told me I shouldn't be using the service so I pointed out I had a completely valid ticket and would have made a similar trip had it been a train.

 

[Gemz91]

I was asked by the driver on a Northern Rail Replacement bus if I had "a valid ticket for travel" when boarding. When I pointed out to him that there was no ticket buying facilities at the station I boarded he just grunted at me and I carried on to a seat.

Although it wasn't in a penalty fare zone, so my story is kind of irrelevant to the question.

 

[richw]

I’ve never seen a ticket check on a RRB.
The last few I’ve been on they shepherded people straight to the buses before they even reached the station entrance, leaving no opportunity to buy.

 

[RJ]

In SWT days I did witness RPIs at Hounslow checking tickets as people boarded replacement buses and sending ticketless passengers to go and buy one.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

Ended up in Birkenhead last year and had to get two replacemare buses to get back to Lime Street. First one didn't care about tickets and the driver was helpful and making sure people were on the right bus. The second one (at Birkenhead Central?) There were rail staff telling people to go into the station to buy tickets and there were checking everyone's before they got on.forat time I have ever seen that with a RRB.

 

[dj_mikey_k]

ATW have RPI's checking tickets for people getting on and off Replacement buses

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think it does depend where the RRB is. Running round central Liverpool for example, you would expect checks really, as the locals would otherwise just be catching them for free in place of the normal buses! Otherwise, any RRB I have caught has either no check, or is more just to check you are getting the correct bus.