Do protests threaten our efforts at reducing the virus

[Mag_seven]

Last weekend will have been the third weekend in a row where flouting of the lockdown has been the one of the main news stories. Two weekends ago it was the Dominic Cumming Scandal, one weekend ago it was the crowded beaches and last weekend it was the protests. Even the most law abiding people will start to question whether they are mugs for obeying the lockdown in such circumstances.

Provided people were not meeting up in groups of 7 or more from different households, the crowded beaches were not a breach of the lockdown in England.

 

[james60059]

Even the most law abiding people will start to question whether they are mugs for obeying the lockdown in such circumstances.

I've been questioning myself that for a couple of weeks, especially as I've been deemed to be a keyworker - as are many of you on this forum. I feel like the government are saying you can carry on going to work, pay your taxes and do as you're told, but in you're free time you practically remain under house arrest, even up until a couple of weeks ago if I'd ventured down to my local line side spot, it would have attracted the attention of the police.

 

[ashkeba]

Provided people were not meeting up in groups of 7 or more from different households, the crowded beaches were not a breach of the lockdown in England.

There were far more than 7 on Southend beach on the TV news! What is the practical difference between hundreds of people going to a beach and going to a city square? Is it people approve of sunbathing but not of protest?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were far more than 7 on Southend beach on the TV news! What is the practical difference between hundreds of people going to a beach and going to a city square? Is it people approve of sunbathing but not of protest?

On the beaches, you could clearly see[1] that people were in small groups, most likely by household, with about 2m at least between them.

At protests, everyone was crammed in together in most cases. (I did note though that the smallish scale protest at MK Station Square did have people standing pretty much on a 2m grid!)

A very, very clear difference.

[1] Except when that helicopter rescue was done at Durdle Door, but I'm not clear what could be done to avoid that - they had to get the helicopter in immediately, so people had to squash up - access there is not wide enough to evacuate quickly enough.

 

[sheff1]

There were far more than 7 on Southend beach on the TV news! What is the practical difference between hundreds of people going to a beach and going to a city square? Is it people approve of sunbathing but not of protest?

No, it is that people have read and understood the definition of "a gathering" in the legislation.

 

[ashkeba]

No, it is that people have read and understood the definition of "a gathering" in the legislation.

"Gathering" appears to be used but not defined in the coronavirus restrictions England regulations. What legislation are you looking at?

It also looks like gatherings now only have to disperse once ordered by a "relevant person" but I may be missing some general feature of English law again.

 

[MCSHF007]

There were far more than 7 on Southend beach on the TV news! What is the practical difference between hundreds of people going to a beach and going to a city square? Is it people approve of sunbathing but not of protest?

I'm not a sun lover (far from it) so would never go to a beach to sunbathe. Having said that I believe there's a very clear difference between people heading to a beach in small groups (in the overwhelming majority of cases family or close friends) and people deliberately joining large protest gatherings/marches mostly formed of complete strangers.

Most people going to the beach would probably be delighted if they were the only ones there. I suspect most deliberately breaking lockdown to protest would however "slink away" very quietly if they turned up and were the only ones in attendance.

I know who I would fine.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

BAME medical staff in areas with high BAME populations can't get PPE, but it's nothing to do with race. Hmm.

Of course racism isn't always overt. You don't openly say "no blacks no Irish" anymore.

In fairness, it's also very rarely even deliberate. Systemic racism is difficult to unravel because so much of it is hidden away behind layers and layers of reasoning and rationales that superficially appear reasonable. Why are BAME areas usually poor? Why are poor areas usually under-resourced? Why are BAME staff usually placed in poor and under-resourced areas?

I think you have the key point when you say it's very rarely deliberate. To my mind, you should call things what they are. Racism implies that you are either actively prejudiced against people or deliberately trying to discriminate against certain people because of their ethnicity. If it's not deliberate and there's no element of prejudice, then it's not racism. In many cases, it's probably more correctly described as 'inequality'. By calling it racism if it's not racism, then you're devaluing the word 'racism' - and very likely unnecessarily contributing to the division and hysteria that currently seems to be sweeping the UK on this issue.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it's not deliberate and there's no element of prejudice, then it's not racism. In many cases, it's probably more correctly described as 'inequality'.

But what is inequality based on race, if not racism?

Racism doesn't have to be deliberate, but it is still racism.

White male managers who give promotions to other white men because they subconsciously think they'll "fit in" better than the BAME candidate are being racist, even if they don't mean to be, and even if they'd be mortified at being seen as racist.

Police who pull over a young black man in a BMW but let the 50yo white man go past are being racist, even if they think that they're being "objective" about the chances of criminality.

If you don't call it what it is, it won't change. BAME people have played nicely yet discrimination levels in workplace recruitment are unchanged since the 1960s: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...hnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination

Black Britons and those of south Asian origin face “shocking” discrimination in the labour market at levels unchanged since the late 1960s, research has found.

A study by experts based at the Centre for Social Investigation at Nuffield College, University of Oxford, found applicants from minority ethnic backgrounds had to send 80% more applications to get a positive response from an employer than a white person of British origin.

A linked study by the same researchers, comparing their results with similar field experiments dating back to 1969, found discrimination against black Britons and those of south Asian origin – particularly Pakistanis – unchanged over almost 50 years.

Clearly pussyfooting around the issue, so as to protect the sensibilities of white men, is quite literally not working.

 

[sheff1]

"Gathering" appears to be used but not defined in the coronavirus restrictions England regulations. What legislation are you looking at?

7(3)(a) of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020.

 

[yorkie]

There were far more than 7 on Southend beach on the TV news! What is the practical difference between hundreds of people going to a beach and going to a city square? Is it people approve of sunbathing but not of protest?

Surely people were not THAT close to each other on the beach?!

 

[ashkeba]

7(3)(a) of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020.

Oh so it's after it's been used and not with the other definitions but it's still a definition? English law is very strange!

"there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;"

Well that's ok because people hadn't gone there to interact socially or to do anything with each other. They'd gone to protest/sunbathe. There just happened to be a lot of other protestors/sunbathers in the same place.

 

[ashkeba]

Surely people were not THAT close to each other on the beach?!

@Bletchleyite mentions the extreme example of Durlde Door but others were shown in TV.

He/she also mentions that some protests were spaced and I think most were. It is just the ones that aren't which get more news time. It is weird that the news punishes spaced protests in this way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite mentions the extreme example of Durlde Door but others were shown in TV.

I only mentioned Durdle Door because that (for mitigating reasons) was the only one likely to cause appreciable spread, on the assumption that there was an infected individual there, which there may not have been. Generally on beaches people don't sit within 2m of people they aren't there with (certainly not 1m), and would just not bother if it was so busy they couldn't do that, because a crammed beach like that isn't fun. Yes, you'll get groups of lads who don't live together, but that is not a unique problem to beaches.

Whereas there are places (some sports matches, gigs etc) where part of the enjoyment is to cram everyone in (hence those being spread vectors) and it's often difficult to avoid it at protests (as has happened at some but not all of them).

 

[al78]

I only mentioned Durdle Door because that (for mitigating reasons) was the only one likely to cause appreciable spread, on the assumption that there was an infected individual there, which there may not have been. Generally on beaches people don't sit within 2m of people they aren't there with (certainly not 1m), and would just not bother if it was so busy they couldn't do that, because a crammed beach like that isn't fun. Yes, you'll get groups of lads who don't live together, but that is not a unique problem to beaches.

Whereas there are places (some sports matches, gigs etc) where part of the enjoyment is to cram everyone in (hence those being spread vectors) and it's often difficult to avoid it at protests (as has happened at some but not all of them).

People may be able to separate into their own groups when stationary on the beach, but they had to move to get there and they wil have to move at some point. I would be surprised if were possible to maintain social distancing when people are moving about, it is difficult to do in my local town centre which is less densely populated than those busy beaches, because people don't think when they are focused on walking from their car to the beach or vice versa, looking for a toilet, looking for a shop, stretching their legs, dipping their feet in the sea, or any other reason someone would feel the need to move about. It is likely lower risk than mass protests.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People may be able to separate into their own groups when stationary on the beach, but they had to move to get there and they wil have to move at some point. I would be surprised if were possible to maintain social distancing when people are moving about, it is difficult to do in my local town centre which is less densely populated than those busy beaches, because people don't think when they are focused on walking from their car to the beach or vice versa, looking for a toilet, looking for a shop, stretching their legs, dipping their feet in the sea, or any other reason someone would feel the need to move about. It is likely lower risk than mass protests.

Within 2m for less than 15 minutes is considered very low risk. Contact tracers won't contact anyone who's not done that, though I think a much lower time is used for within 1m. 1m is very close, I don't like people within 1m face to face (rather than sat next to them sideways) normally. For instance someone sat opposite you on a train is about 1.5m away.

 

[scotrail158713]

For instance someone sat opposite you on a train is about 1.5m away.

Even on a 158? It certainly feels closer than that
On a more genuine note, I completely agree regarding beaches. Apart from if they’ve used public transport to get there, then they’re very unlikely to become infected there at all.

 

[sheff1]

"there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;"

Well that's ok because people hadn't gone there to interact socially or to do anything with each other. They'd gone to protest/sunbathe. There just happened to be a lot of other protestors/sunbathers in the same place.

Post #97 explains the difference.