Do railways discriminate against colourblind people?

[muz379]

Any new way of communication signalling information to drivers is almost certainly going to use colours that are already in use on the railway now to convey information .

You cant have a new interface wiith loads of text on it because the driver needs to be able to look at it and quickly decide a course of action . Like is currently the case , single yellow is associated in a drivers mind with a certain course of action

For the sake of all of the people that hold current driver competence and for the sake of continuity any new signalling system will almost certainly use the current colour system in use on the railway . Otherwise drivers who have been driving to the current colour scheme could argue it puts that at risk of having a SOL incident

Take for example this proposition , If I was to take over a city in the UK and change the traffic light colours and positions to blue , purple and white stop at the bottom and proceed at the top . How long would it be before someone ploughed through a blue(red) light and caused a major crash .

 

[najaB]

Any new way of communication signalling information to drivers is almost certainly going to use colours that are already in use on the railway now to convey information .

You cant have a new interface wiith loads of text on it because the driver needs to be able to look at it and quickly decide a course of action . Like is currently the case , single yellow is associated in a drivers mind with a certain course of action

Oh, I agree that using colour is a good thing in user interfaces. My assertion was that only using colour would be a wasted opportunity to convey additional information by combining colour with symbols and/or text. My expectation is that the next-generation signalling system would be more capable than the current system.

My understanding is that Level 3 ERTMS uses moving block to control train movements, so it would require more than simple Green=Go / Red=Stop.

 

[muz379]

Oh, I agree that using colour is a good thing in user interfaces. My assertion was that only using colour would be a wasted opportunity to convey additional information by combining colour with symbols and/or text. My expectation is that the next-generation signalling system would be more capable than the current system.

My understanding is that Level 3 ERTMS uses moving block to control train movements, so it would require more than simple Green=Go / Red=Stop.

Do we not currently have more than the simple green and red anyway ?

Surely if we are going to want something as dynamic and fast moving as moving block you need a system that drivers can look at and very quickly understand what it is they are meant to do .

Any new system will communicate more information of course . But the system still needs to be kept pretty basic .

 

[najaB]

Do we not currently have more than the simple green and red anyway ?

Colour light signals don't convey information about speed (without introducing flashing aspects) or information about routes, so even in four-aspect areas it's basically an extension of a stop/go system.

Surely if we are going to want something as dynamic and fast moving as moving block you need a system that drivers can look at and very quickly understand what it is they are meant to do.

Yes, agreed. And I understand that colour is going to play an important role, but it's not just going to be colour.

 

[Hornet]

This is all a load of old eyewash. Driverless Trains are the future!

 

[SPADTrap]

Colourblind people are physically capable of driving a train if railway signalling was accessible, tests for the Royal Marines cannot be made accessible as this would defeat the purpose, those who do not pass or not physically capable of becoming a marine.

I can't imagine what it would be like to have my dream taken away from me because of medical reasons, it must be awful and I'm genuinely sorry that is the case for anyone, I really mean that. I consider myself extremely lucky to be healthy in that respect and whenever I start moaning to myself at work I really think of that..I can't do anything else but not waste what I've been given..

Instead of spending money "making signalling accessible.." (??) maybe it would be better spent exploring possible treatments to reduce the effects overall?

That aside, what you just typed was probably the most silly thing I've ever read on this forum

Take "driving trains" out of it completely along with all the "childhood dreams" and look at the fact that real people travel on these trains...actual lives. That isn't something to be played with. Just like RAF pilots having to pass extremely strenuous aptitude tests (been there and failed!) we need the right person with the right qualities in both fitness and everything else. Sadly a colour deficiency renders you unable to be that person IMO.

 

[Johnuk123]

This thread surely has to be some sort of wind-up.

 

[valenta]

This is all getting a little out of hand. The notion that I posted this thread with the intention of winding people up is ridiculous. I fully accept that there are far better things that money can be spent on and that the introduction of colourblind signalling systems has obvious safety implications. Forums are for discussion and this thread has highlighted the issues associated with introducing any kind of system like this - and that was the purpose of setting the thread up. It seems that at present no such cost effective scheme is feasible (I asserted that in my first post) and I accept that but when replacing signals in the future perhaps tweaks could be made in the future to make railways accessible for more mildly colourblind people (just tweaking the tone of the light might be enough to enable more to pass the tests required).

 

[MrJamesBrown]

What exactly do the colour blind tests in the medical involve? As I can tell the difference between the railway signal colours, however always fail the colour vision tests at the optician.

 

[valenta]

What exactly do the colour blind tests in the medical involve? As I can tell the difference between the railway signal colours, however always fail the colour vision tests at the optician.

There are several types of colourblindness, you probably don't suffer from red/green colourblindness.

 

[DownSouth]

I've heard of software companies hiring people to type for blind computer programmers

That's not equivalent to a train driver though. Software engineers are professionals, train drivers are skilled labour.

It would probably be cheaper, easier, and more likely for the train company to employ a minder for the colourblind person and sit beside them, telling them the signal colour...

And even cheaper to offer a victim of colour blindness oppression a one-off compensation payment to get them out the door.

They could even offer them some other role in the company which they can perform, and allow them a cab ride every now and then as a performance incentive in the same way that a company sponsoring a sporting event might give tickets to high-performance employees.

 

[PermitToTravel]

That's not equivalent to a train driver though. Software engineers are professionals, train drivers are skilled labour.

Absolutely - just a pointless anecdote

 

[muz379]

They could even offer them some other role in the company which they can perform, and allow them a cab ride every now and then as a performance incentive in the same way that a company sponsoring a sporting event might give tickets to high-performance employees.

I wonder is there any reason someone with colour blindness couldn't be a MDD . I mean if there is no requirement to leave the depot then you wont need to read any signals surely .

 

[driver9000]

I wonder is there any reason someone with colour blindness couldn't be a MDD . I mean if there is no requirement to leave the depot then you wont need to read any signals surely .

White, red and green handsignals at night.

 

[dysonsphere]

Colour blind private pilots are allowed with restrictions, normally simple aircraft as in single engined and fixed undercarrige. (the green red waring lights on retractables are a no no) and no night flying as the papis giving height and approach at night are a red green system.

 

[SPADTrap]

I wonder is there any reason someone with colour blindness couldn't be a MDD . I mean if there is no requirement to leave the depot then you wont need to read any signals surely .

A lot of depots have signals.

 

[najaB]

A lot of depots have signals.

Though, if you're only doing 5mph it's a lot easier to see which light is lit by position rather than colour...

 

[driver9000]

Though, if you're only doing 5mph it's a lot easier to see which light is lit by position rather than colour...

What if it's being given by handlamp?

 

[Lockwood]

If it starts being waved vigorously and banged against your train as you go past it with someone swearing loudly at you, it was red.

 

[Clip]

Though, if you're only doing 5mph it's a lot easier to see which light is lit by position rather than colour...

Arent a lot of signals in depots ground signals? Ive never taken much notice when Ive visited one to be honest.

 

[GB]

If it starts being waved vigorously and banged against your train as you go past it with someone swearing loudly at you, it was red.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Colour blind private pilots are allowed with restrictions, normally simple aircraft as in single engined and fixed undercarrige. (the green red waring lights on retractables are a no no) and no night flying as the papis giving height and approach at night are a red green system.

While this maybe true (you sound like you know a lot more about it than I do) you are hardly going to make a proper career out of it which I believe is the essence of this thread.

 

[SPADTrap]

Colour blind private pilots are allowed with restrictions, normally simple aircraft as in single engined and fixed undercarrige. (the green red waring lights on retractables are a no no) and no night flying as the papis giving height and approach at night are a red green system.

Red/white!

 

[3141]

What exactly do the colour blind tests in the medical involve? As I can tell the difference between the railway signal colours, however always fail the colour vision tests at the optician.

I have red/green colour blindness. That doesn't mean I cannot possibly tell them apart. If you present me with the colour of a London bus and the colour of a lawn of grass I know which is which, especially if the samples cover a largish area (say at least 10 inches by 10 inches) and I am sitting in front of them in a good light.

But if you showed me railway signals as seen from half a mile away or more, I'd be less sure.

I always fail the Ishihara tests, and I've just failed two others I've found on the internet.

If I applied to be a train driver, or anything similar, it would be in the interests of everybody for the Ishihara tests to have me rejected. It would not be safe for me to get the job on the basis that I was all right with the colour of a bus and the colour of a lawn.
.

 

[AndyPJG]

Colour blind private pilots are allowed with restrictions, normally simple aircraft as in single engined and fixed undercarrige. (the green red waring lights on retractables are a no no) and no night flying as the papis giving height and approach at night are a red green system.

To quote David Gunson (ATC after-dinner speaker), red means you are low, green means you are far too low - you're seeing the lights THROUGH the grass!

 

[muz379]

A lot of depots have signals.

my experience is they are much simpler signalling systems though and with the low aproach speeds could always be read by someone regardless of their ability to see or differentiate color .

As far as I remember the depots I have been on have had signals to Control entry into the maintenance sheds themselves which have just been basic ground position light affairs which can easily be read by someone who is color blind as they just refer to the position rather than the colour .

apart from that they have signals protecting the roads off the depot which A depot driver doesn't have authority to pass anyway so passing them will always be a spad .

I do take the point about hand lamp signalling at night though . im sure some movement could be used to make them accessible .

 

[SPADTrap]

To quote David Gunson (ATC after-dinner speaker), red means you are low, green means you are far too low - you're seeing the lights THROUGH the grass!

I suppose there is that option!

 

[moggie]

Q1. So, being a 20:20 vision signal engineer with me glasses on tell me because I honestly am not aware; do people who suffer colour blindness all see the same colour distortion?

Q2. And the supplementary question is; assuming the answer to Q1 is no, what colours should be used to avoid 'discrimination' - i'd call it unsuitable but there you go?

Q3a / b. Don't use a colour based signalling system? So bearing in mind the changeover should be a 'simple' (and inexpensive affair in your words) is it letter and numbers then? In the cab or outside?

Q4. if outside the cab how maybe you could suggest how far should these numbers / letters / symbols be readable?

Q5. If inside the cab how how many years do you feel it reasonable to eradicate EVERY colour based lineside signal on the network - ignoring the cost for one minute?

My opinion: I suspect the ophthalmic industry will come up with a 'fix' for you long before all lineside signals disappear from the network. Maybe that might be a better option to investigate.

 

[stanley T]

8% of men are red-green colour blind, so it is not a small minority.

Red for stop is good, but it is a shame that green was chosen for go, blue would have been better. That applies to the roads, too, where colour blind people can drive and that must have caused some accidents (you can't awlays judge the positioning of the light well from a distance). Too late to change now, I suppose.

 

[dysonsphere]

Red/white!

Just goes to say I dont have a night rating and flew from an airfield with papis only really turned at dusk for people getting a night rating

 

[JamesRowden]

8% of men are red-green colour blind, so it is not a small minority.

Red for stop is good, but it is a shame that green was chosen for go, blue would have been better. That applies to the roads, too, where colour blind people can drive and that must have caused some accidents (you can't awlays judge the positioning of the light well from a distance). Too late to change now, I suppose.

The 'green' used on traffic signals is slightly blue in order to help colour blind drivers.