• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,554
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I've said it before, yes, I think compulsory reservation is the way to go with trains at the moment, even local trains. That way you can be sure to limit numbers. To take account that a small number of people might board anyway, keep some seats unreserved.

At particular problem spots, BTP could check reservations. If you bin off all walk-up fares for now including seasons[1] and sell Advances only, then there is nothing technical about checking tickets - if it doesn't have that train shown on it you're not getting on.

[1] Set the Advances on commuter "peak" services at around 1/40 of a monthly season.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,581
There are lots of public health decisions that have to make some kind of weighing up between risk and benefit. There can always be an argument about whether a decision is the right one. How to weigh up the risks of more people being on public transport with the benefits of allowing the non car-owning portion of the public some level of mobility? I don't know. But having made a decision, it should be a clear one. Otherwise you create a situation where the type of people who like to follow rules meticulously remain stuck at home while others travel freely. It doesn't really matter what the legal situation is - it's a matter of stating clearly that the societal decision that's been taken is such and such. So that the risks and benefits can be shared as fairly as possible. So - has Wales taken the decision that leisure travel is OK or not? If the aim is to allow a bit but not too much, then there are better ways of achieving that than by sending out ambiguous messages. For example, asking people to limit the distance they travel, or a suggestion that people try to limit themselves to 1 leisure journey per week, or even some kind of compulsory pre-booking arrangement. These kinds of approaches are fairer to the people who are dilligent in sticking to what they see as the rules that society has "agreed" upon. There will still be people who ignore them, but you can reduce the number of people who end up stuck at home for months while others roam freely.
I fully agree. And up to now, the message has been plain and simple "public transport is for essential travel only". Unfortunately, while you might consider that it doesn't matter what the legal position is, there have been far too many on here who have been recklessly encouraging everyone to ignore that guideline because it wasn't legally mandated.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,604
And if we look over the border, we see increasingly large parts of the country going back into lockdown (large chunks of the NW going back into lockdown, and talk now of putting everything inside the M25 back into lockdown), pubs and restaurants likely having to shut again in order to reopen schools, etc etc. Not sure I want us to follow that model.
If people don't understand a simple "essential travel only" message, I really don't see how you can expect them to understand a more nuanced message that it is OK to travel on some trains but not others.

I totally agree, we cannot control the virus, so we need some effective way of controlling the selfish idiots.

I fully agree. And up to now, the message has been plain and simple "public transport is for essential travel only". Unfortunately, while you might consider that it doesn't matter what the legal position is, there have been far too many on here who have been recklessly encouraging everyone to ignore that guideline because it wasn't legally mandated.

So leisure travellers are on trains because they are so stupid they can't understand the message? It think that's as ridiculous as saying people speed on motorways because they are too stupid to understand there's a speed limit.
The simple message is "Don't have a car? No days out over the summer holidays for you". It may be simple but it's not very nice - it's saying that we're going to open up the economy and start moving back towards normal - unless you don't have a car in which case forget it.

If there was a more nuanced message, I think it's quite likely that many people would follow it. By issuing a complete ban you're not giving information on the trains it would be 'safe' to travel on so anything goes. Give people rules they can follow with some inconvenience and many will. Give them rules that make life very difficult and it's less likely that they will. (If we made the speed limit in the UK 20 mph but voluntary, then took away all the signs indicating current speed limits, I think it's quite likely that speeds would increase overall - very few people are going to stick to 20 mph everywhere and you're not telling them now what a reasonable speed is anywhere).

I also think it's unfair to accuse someone of being a selfish idiot for wanting a day out with the kids in the summer holidays just like people with cars get to do.

And that message would be particularly unreasonable if coming from someone who isn't stuck at home indefinitely themselves.

And if virus numbers increase, then inevitably the number of people dying will increase. And you are happy to accept that?

As a representative from the WHO said on the radio yesterday, people may be getting fed up with the restrictions, but the virus is not getting fed up with infecting and killing us. As you say, this virus is here to stay, and we need to learn to live with it. And to the majority of the population, learning to live with it means changing our behaviours so that we can keep the virus under control. It does NOT mean just going back to normal and accepting that hundreds of thousands of people will die as a result.

Right. But you seem to think it's fine that "changing your behaviour" means that if you rely on public transport you shouldn't be able to travel any more.

Now I know there's a good reason for restrictions on public transport.

But at the moment there are plenty of trains running around with excess capacity even by the rail social distancing restrictions and no effort apparently being made to get people in those seats - which would also bring in some money and mean that the taxpayer isn't spending a fortune on trains that almost nobody gets to use.

I was being a bit flippant when I suggested shutting it down. With holidays abroad being thin on the ground, is it any wonder that people travel to UK beaches or holiday resorts? Now the pubs are open, people might want to have a drink so that rules out driving. I'm not sure that reservations would help. It's only an hourly service in North Wales (there are a few extras) so 150 people is five "train loads."

No what I meant was that so far as leisure travellers go, if they follow what they're being told the system is shut down to them.

In other news, when out and about today I didn't see any "Essential travel only" warnings on departure boards (or "Don't get the train to the beach").

I've also had a rather disappointing answer on behalf of the Transport Minister, saying essentially that while they appreciate that not everyone has access to a car, managing social distancing has to be a top priority. But they are considering a pre-booking system, with trials to be carried out on TrawsCumru in the autumn.

I'm sure it's not trivial....but I wonder if decision makers themselves were impacted by this they might have found a slightly faster way of setting up a system than starting out with some trials in the autumn?

From the tone of the letter, the essential travel only message is here to stay.

I think the conclusion is that anyone who can learn to drive and get a car should do so as soon as possible. And I would not expect them to move back to public transport if and when things go back to normal - why on earth should they?
 

trainophile

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
6,186
Location
Wherever I lay my hat
It's going to hit the tourist industry in Wales too. I have just cancelled a hotel booking I had for Llandudno at the beginning of September, and I'm sure I'm not going to be the only one.

I note the NRE page that shows when Advance tickets are being released for the various TOCs just says Closed against TfW. They are only selling full fares, for the foreseeable future, while most other operators are at least offering a few cheap tickets if you look for them.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
The guard did make an announcement after leaving Welshpool to remind us that masks are compulsory in England.

Can't help but find this amusing. If the guard wanted to be really particular he could make an announcement on the approach to the Wales/England border at Plas Y Court that masks must be put on at that point.
 

Freightmaster

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2009
Messages
3,472
It's going to hit the tourist industry in Wales too. I have just cancelled a hotel booking I had for Llandudno at the beginning of September, and I'm sure I'm not going to be the only one.
Can I ask why?

(I just booked a 7 night self catering holiday in Barmouth for October and wondered if I am missing something?! o_O )





MARK
 

trainophile

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
6,186
Location
Wherever I lay my hat
Can I ask why?

(I just booked a 7 night self catering holiday in Barmouth for October and wondered if I am missing something?! o_O )





MARK

Read on this thread that some of the North Wales trains are overcrowded by current standards, also decided I couldn't face the hassle of pretending my travel was essential.
 

Freightmaster

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2009
Messages
3,472
Read on this thread that some of the North Wales trains are overcrowded by current standards, also decided I couldn't face the hassle of pretending my travel was essential.
Thanks for clarifying - we will be driving to Barmouth and then mostly walking while there;
no intention to use public transport as I agree with you that it's too stressful!





MARK
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Gwynedd politicians/local government have written to Mark Drakeford with concerns about being overwhelmed by tourists amid lack of social distancing in small resorts (like Barmouth).
While this might last only a month until the schools go back, the mood music is not good for relaxing more rules at the moment.
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
3,673
Gwynedd politicians/local government have written to Mark Drakeford with concerns about being overwhelmed by tourists amid lack of social distancing in small resorts (like Barmouth).
While this might last only a month until the schools go back, the mood music is not good for relaxing more rules at the moment.
I bet the people who's businesses are benefiting aren't complaining. Busy body politicians interfering with no thought to those people who need to make a living. Hasn't Wales' economy suffered enough. Can't think a few extra tourists in Barmouth are going to start a second wave. Some people need to get a grip, this persistent obsession with this virus gets more concerning by the day.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
I bet the people who's businesses are benefiting aren't complaining. Busy body politicians interfering with no thought to those people who need to make a living. Hasn't Wales' economy suffered enough. Can't think a few extra tourists in Barmouth are going to start a second wave. Some people need to get a grip, this persistent obsession with this virus gets more concerning by the day.

People living in attractive parts of the world have either made a living from, complained about or tolerated tourists ever since the railways enabled mass tourism in the nineteenth century. The public health v economy argument is just the current manifestation of this.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,602
I was contemplating a trip to North Wales this weekend - but the TfW messaging was one of a combination of factors that made me decide not to. Instead I'm going somewhere on the LNER route. They have a compulsory reservation system in operation - in normal times I'd object to that, but in this case it allows me (car-less) to make a trip out of London and feel that I'm not putting myself or anyone else at unreasonable risk, because LNER have set up their reservation system to ensure the trains don't get crowded. It's obviously possible to do, so I'm not sure why TfW need to do delay things while considering trials. It's a completely sensible solution at least for longer distance services - the alternatives are trains running around carrying fresh air, or offering people transport where they don't know if they are going to be forced into an overcrowding system.

There's no great hardship for me in not being able to make a weekend excursion to Wales - up to Wales whether it sees tourism as a plus or minus at the moment - but it does seem very unfair to people living in Wales without private transport. Agree with all of what @AdamWW says above.
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
I was contemplating a trip to North Wales this weekend - but the TfW messaging was one of a combination of factors that made me decide not to. Instead I'm going somewhere on the LNER route. They have a compulsory reservation system in operation - in normal times I'd object to that, but in this case it allows me (car-less) to make a trip out of London and feel that I'm not putting myself or anyone else at unreasonable risk, because LNER have set up their reservation system to ensure the trains don't get crowded. It's obviously possible to do, so I'm not sure why TfW need to do delay things while considering trials. It's a completely sensible solution at least for longer distance services - the alternatives are trains running around carrying fresh air, or offering people transport where they don't know if they are going to be forced into an overcrowding system.

There's no great hardship for me in not being able to make a weekend excursion to Wales - up to Wales whether it sees tourism as a plus or minus at the moment - but it does seem very unfair to people living in Wales without private transport. Agree with all of what @AdamWW says above.
The local Councillors in Gwynedd are already complaining about tourists and wanting him to find ways to control the numbers so they'll be happy to have less people arriving! The preoblem for TfW is very few of their services/stations lend themselves to reservations and their thinking all along has been along the lines of how can we discourage people as apposed to how can we make the current situation better.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,554
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The local Councillors in Gwynedd are already complaining about tourists and wanting him to find ways to control the numbers so they'll be happy to have less people arriving! The preoblem for TfW is very few of their services/stations lend themselves to reservations and their thinking all along has been along the lines of how can we discourage people as apposed to how can we make the current situation better.

I'd have said all of their services lend themselves to reservations other than the Valley Lines - everything else is low frequency so hardly anyone will just turn up and go without at least looking at a timetable.

Perhaps less so for enforcement of reservations, I suppose.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Gwynedd politicians/local government have written to Mark Drakeford with concerns about being overwhelmed by tourists amid lack of social distancing in small resorts (like Barmouth).
While this might last only a month until the schools go back, the mood music is not good for relaxing more rules at the moment.

Locals in Cornwall have been complaining also and visitors there are not social distancing and one even said they have they have come there to get away from all the restrictions at home. This is just a casual remark I have picked up but no firm link.
 
Last edited:

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,604
Gwynedd politicians/local government have written to Mark Drakeford with concerns about being overwhelmed by tourists amid lack of social distancing in small resorts (like Barmouth).
While this might last only a month until the schools go back, the mood music is not good for relaxing more rules at the moment.

The impression I have is that social distancing on trains is not on the list of things to consider relaxing when possible. It seems to be taken as a given that social distancing on trains has to stay indefinitely, and while that's a bit unfortunate for those without cars they should happily accept that it's necessary for the greater good.
 

Freightmaster

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2009
Messages
3,472
A classic line from 'Hot Fuzz'! :D

200.gif

(Hot Fuzz gif)





MARK
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,602
In terms of places being overwhelmed with tourists - that seems much more likely to result from car drivers being able to go anywhere without restrictions, than it would from people arriving by rail on quota-limited reservation only services. And doesn't produce all those problems with parking on verges and congestion.

If places want to control tourist numbers then they need to look at how to moderate the numbers arriving by car, not by imposing a blanket ban on public transport.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
In terms of places being overwhelmed with tourists - that seems much more likely to result from car drivers being able to go anywhere without restrictions, than it would from people arriving by rail on quota-limited reservation only services. And doesn't produce all those problems with parking on verges and congestion.

If places want to control tourist numbers then they need to look at how to moderate the numbers arriving by car, not by imposing a blanket ban on public transport.

Yes I don’t think the “essential travel” on public transport has ever been about the issues over visitor numbers. A few 158s each day to Barmouth is a drop in the ocean, even if they managed to arrive crush loaded. I suppose some of the longer trains to places like Brighton, Margate or Broadstairs could contribute more meaningful numbers.
 

trainophile

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
6,186
Location
Wherever I lay my hat
I am surprised if people in tourist areas are actively discouraging visitors, given that this is the peak of their season when they usually make enough money from tourists to keep them going through the winter. I bet it's not the hoteliers and restauranteurs who are complaining.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,556
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I am surprised if people in tourist areas are actively discouraging visitors, given that this is the peak of their season when they usually make enough money from tourists to keep them going through the winter. I bet it's not the hoteliers and restauranteurs who are complaining.

It's Plaid Cymru, the Party of Wales...
 

Pat1105

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2020
Messages
312
Location
West Midlands
An article on the Shropshire Star’s website today about TfW:
https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...sport-for-wales-and-british-transport-police/
Leyton Powell, Transport for Wales rail services safety and assurance director said: “The safety of customers and colleagues is our top priority and we’re asking everyone to only use public transport for essential travel and where there are no other travel alternatives.

“Our capacity has been massively reduced due to social distancing measures and we must maintain safe space for those key workers using our services.”

I really do despair! One minute we’re told we can use PT for non essential journeys by Boris, the next, we’re told we shouldn’t by the TOC. At the end of the day, I see no real issue in people using public transport for non essential travel, so long as the rules are followed. If anything, I think using PT for leisure or non essential journeys should be encouraged. It would certainly help reduce the congestion around tourist hotspots.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,604
An article on the Shropshire Star’s website today about TfW:

I really do despair! One minute we’re told we can use PT for non essential journeys by Boris, the next, we’re told we shouldn’t by the TOC. At the end of the day, I see no real issue in people using public transport for non essential travel, so long as the rules are followed. If anything, I think using PT for leisure or non essential journeys should be encouraged. It would certainly help reduce the congestion around tourist hotspots.

I would argue that with infection rates as low as they currently are, social distancing on public transport cannot be reasonably justified in terms of the risk to "key workers" travelling. (Presumably people who travel to work in non "key" jobs don't count).

The justification is surely to reduce coronavirus transmission in the UK and prevent infections numbers overall from starting to rise, not to make trains into hugely expensive "safe spaces" for key workers.

I don't like the "think of the key workers" message any more than I like people who almost certainly don't rely on public transport themselves sanctimoneously telling everyone without a car to stay home until such time as the government might decide they are allowed to travel for leisure again.
 

talldave

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2013
Messages
2,169
I would argue that with infection rates as low as they currently are, social distancing on public transport cannot be reasonably justified in terms of the risk to "key workers" travelling. (Presumably people who travel to work in non "key" jobs don't count).
You're not paying attention are you! People wearing uniforms associated with their job on their way to or from work can't catch it or spread it ;).

People travelling to fancy dress parties in uniforms can catch it and spread it - unless they're attending the party as someone who does the job they actually do.......
 

trainophile

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
6,186
Location
Wherever I lay my hat
I still say what are they running all the off-peak trains for? The number of people travelling to and from shift work must be pretty small compared to the 9-5'ers, so most of the day they seemingly prefer to run nearly empty trains.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
An article on the Shropshire Star’s website today about TfW:

I really do despair! One minute we’re told we can use PT for non essential journeys by Boris, the next, we’re told we shouldn’t by the TOC. At the end of the day, I see no real issue in people using public transport for non essential travel, so long as the rules are followed. If anything, I think using PT for leisure or non essential journeys should be encouraged. It would certainly help reduce the congestion around tourist hotspots.


Boris has nothing to do with TFW as they come under the Welsh Government banner and not Westminster
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
Gwynedd politicians/local government have written to Mark Drakeford with concerns about being overwhelmed by tourists amid lack of social distancing in small resorts (like Barmouth).
While this might last only a month until the schools go back, the mood music is not good for relaxing more rules at the moment.

They are just opportunists using the pretence of public health to express their anti-tourism views. They should be given the attention they deserve - none.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top