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Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

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Belperpete

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The consensus here seems to be that generally passengers are not going to be challenged on their reason for travel, barring perhaps families travelling to Barry for the day. However the messaging is extremely off-putting, in particular the threat that having gone somewhere for the day, someone may be refused travel home if the trains back are too busy.
I think TfW Rail are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They are required by the Welsh Govt to ensure that people can travel in a covid-safe manner, but have little to no powers to enforce anything. Their only option seems to be to make their messaging as off-putting as possible. If the number of passengers returned to even a fraction of normal numbers, there is no way they could ensure the social distancing still mandated by the Welsh Govt.

I was expecting the Welsh Govt to drop the 2m rule, or at least reduce it to 1m, when the wearing of face masks became compulsory. However, the govt are hardly likely to encourage even more people to travel by train when things like the Barry Island incidents are happening right on their doorstep.
 
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Belperpete

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Controversially, I strongly believe that there should be no Barry Island services when the weather is as hot as it was last week.
Other businesses are not permitted to open if they can't do so in a covid-safe manner, so if Barry Island services can't be run in a covid-safe manner, they shouldn't run. However, I suspect that TfW Rail's contract does not allow this - they are being supported specifically to run services for essential workers. I also suspect that the Welsh Govt would not support this option, as it would just transfer the problem to the buses, which I suspect are carrying even more essential workers.
 

AdamWW

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I think TfW Rail are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They are required by the Welsh Govt to ensure that people can travel in a covid-safe manner, but have little to no powers to enforce anything. Their only option seems to be to make their messaging as off-putting as possible. If the number of passengers returned to even a fraction of normal numbers, there is no way they could ensure the social distancing still mandated by the Welsh Govt.

I was expecting the Welsh Govt to drop the 2m rule, or at least reduce it to 1m, when the wearing of face masks became compulsory. However, the govt are hardly likely to encourage even more people to travel by train when things like the Barry Island incidents are happening right on their doorstep.

I'm sure it's not easy for them. However I'm not sure the situation is as bleak as you suggest - there were plenty of services that with the same loadings as in the past would be fine now if they could adopt the policy which bus companies do (only one person per double seat unless from same household) - and of course a lot of leisure travel will consist of more than one person per household so you would end up quite a bit above 50% seated capacity available. And while some services did run out of seats pre-Covid, on the ones I've used it was generally commuting time, Barry Island on a nice day and when events were on.

And that's without the fact that some people on those trains in the past no doubt could have driven, which they are of course now asked to do. And while there are fewer services than before, that should give more scope to run the trains that do run as longer ones in many cases.

In any case they aren't justifying it directly on the fact that they can't accommodate all the would-be passengers - they're just saying that the government says that public transport in Wales is only for key workers and essential journeys.

(Though in which case, who sanctioned the TFW FAQ which says that leisure travel is now OK?)

One solution to Barry Island might be to recognize that people are going to try to travel no matter what they say, and perhaps even that it is reasonable for families without cars to be permitted the odd day out in the summer holidays even in these strange times, and lay on dedicated transport for it.

I have no idea whether hire coaches could be arranged for such a purpose.

Finally, I still remain unconvinced that the best approach to the situation is to be so aggressive in their messaging towards prospective passengers, and to fail to acknowledge that banning people without cars from leisure travel is actually a bit of an imposition - even if it is necesary.

The time may come when they actually want to attract passengers again and I can't see this helping.
 

Bikeman78

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It is not clear to me that they have to sell all tickets to all comers (there was a claim on Twitter that they had refused to sell a ticket to someone because their travel was not essential and there was a garbled message on their web site a while ago about refusing to sell return tickets to Barry Island).

If it's possible to buy the Rover outside Wales that would avoid any chance of trouble (which I suspect is small to near non-existant).
Most stations are unstaffed so the majority of people that buy tickets will get them from a machine or on the internet. Given that it's common knowledge that the guards don't come round I suspect many people don't bother. As for Barry Island, if the TOC has transported people there, then it's almost certainly obliged to get them home again if they have a ticket.
 

AdamWW

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As for Barry Island, if the TOC has transported people there, then it's almost certainly obliged to get them home again if they have a ticket.

That may be the case, but just the threat of being left stranded is going to put some people off. (Which is presumably what they want).
 

Bikeman78

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Other businesses are not permitted to open if they can't do so in a covid-safe manner, so if Barry Island services can't be run in a covid-safe manner, they shouldn't run. However, I suspect that TfW Rail's contract does not allow this - they are being supported specifically to run services for essential workers. I also suspect that the Welsh Govt would not support this option, as it would just transfer the problem to the buses, which I suspect are carrying even more essential workers.
It's not just Barry Island. I've heard reports of 158s in North Wales with 150 people on. The Covid capacity is 28 people. Single decker rail replacements are theoretically limited to 10 people. Where are TFW going to find 13 buses to carry the overspill? Lockdown is over. People will travel. As I've pointed out before, social distancing on public transport does not work. Either let the passengers get on with it or shut it down and get the so called key workers a taxi.
 

AdamWW

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It's not just Barry Island. I've heard reports of 158s in North Wales with 150 people on. The Covid capacity is 28 people. Single decker rail replacements are theoretically limited to 10 people. Where are TFW going to find 13 buses to carry the overspill? Lockdown is over. People will travel. As I've pointed out before, social distancing on public transport does not work. Either let the passengers get on with it or shut it down and get the so called key workers a taxi.

The thing is, I'm not convinced that because some trains get overcrowded, that justifies shutting the entire system down to leisure travel, all day, every day of the week. Easy enough to say if you have a car and I'm sure some people who rely on public transport are happy to do their bit by staying at home for the indefinite future. But I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect everyone who relies on trains to get around to just go without the odd day out or trip to visit friends and family - even if this means a reservation system for trains that wouldn't normally justify it.

As for 10 people on a bus - I was rather assuming that a hire coach would be able to accommodate people in the same manner as National Express or service buses. I don't know why the rules are different in the rail industry. A coach full of families of 4 would have almost full capacity under National Express rules.

Of course we can also look over the border to England and see that - somehow - it's OK to use trains there.
 

Bikeman78

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The thing is, I'm not convinced that because some trains get overcrowded, that justifies shutting the entire system down to leisure travel, all day, every day of the week. Easy enough to say if you have a car and I'm sure some people who rely on public transport are happy to do their bit by staying at home for the indefinite future. But I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect everyone who relies on trains to get around to just go without the odd day out or trip to visit friends and family - even if this means a reservation system for trains that wouldn't normally justify it.

As for 10 people on a bus - I was rather assuming that a hire coach would be able to accommodate people in the same manner as National Express or service buses. I don't know why the rules are different in the rail industry. A coach full of families of 4 would have almost full capacity under National Express rules.

Of course we can also look over the border to England and see that - somehow - it's OK to use trains there.
I was being a bit flippant when I suggested shutting it down. With holidays abroad being thin on the ground, is it any wonder that people travel to UK beaches or holiday resorts? Now the pubs are open, people might want to have a drink so that rules out driving. I'm not sure that reservations would help. It's only an hourly service in North Wales (there are a few extras) so 150 people is five "train loads."
 

Belperpete

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The thing is, I'm not convinced that because some trains get overcrowded, that justifies shutting the entire system down to leisure travel, all day, every day of the week. Easy enough to say if you have a car and I'm sure some people who rely on public transport are happy to do their bit by staying at home for the indefinite future. But I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect everyone who relies on trains to get around to just go without the odd day out or trip to visit friends and family - even if this means a reservation system for trains that wouldn't normally justify it.

Of course we can also look over the border to England and see that - somehow - it's OK to use trains there.
And if we look over the border, we see increasingly large parts of the country going back into lockdown (large chunks of the NW going back into lockdown, and talk now of putting everything inside the M25 back into lockdown), pubs and restaurants likely having to shut again in order to reopen schools, etc etc. Not sure I want us to follow that model.

If people don't understand a simple "essential travel only" message, I really don't see how you can expect them to understand a more nuanced message that it is OK to travel on some trains but not others.
 

Richard Scott

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And if we look over the border, we see increasingly large parts of the country going back into lockdown (large chunks of the NW going back into lockdown, and talk now of putting everything inside the M25 back into lockdown), pubs and restaurants likely having to shut again in order to reopen schools, etc etc. Not sure I want us to follow that model.

If people don't understand a simple "essential travel only" message, I really don't see how you can expect them to understand a more nuanced message that it is OK to travel on some trains but not others.
It's utterly ridiculous when number of infections is still small, agree it's rising slightly but still small. However this is going to happen, we cannot control a virus and make it do what we want, people still aren't getting this fact. We have to learn to live with it. TfW banging in about essential travel is falling on a lot of deaf ears probably because many people are just fed up with restrictions and are prepared to deal with the consequences as they have worked out actually whilst this virus can have issues for some, for most it's not a problem (before someone bangs on about long term effects I am aware of some views on this).
 

Belperpete

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It's utterly ridiculous when number of infections is still small, agree it's rising slightly but still small. However this is going to happen, we cannot control a virus and make it do what we want, people still aren't getting this fact. We have to learn to live with it. TfW banging in about essential travel is falling on a lot of deaf ears probably because many people are just fed up with restrictions and are prepared to deal with the consequences as they have worked out actually whilst this virus can have issues for some, for most it's not a problem (before someone bangs on about long term effects I am aware of some views on this).
I totally agree, we cannot control the virus, so we need some effective way of controlling the selfish idiots.
 

Richard Scott

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I totally agree, we cannot control the virus, so we need some effective way of controlling the selfish idiots.
I think it's unfair to say selfish idiots. They don't know how many others wish to travel that day. People are fed up having been stuck in for months and want a change to help their wellbeing. A day in Barry doesn't float my boat but for many people it's just a break from the monotony of recent months. Keeping people stuck in is not on, how much longer is this going on? TfW will still be going on about essential travel in 10 years at this rate. It needs to stop. If virus numbers increase, then they do. We need a proper plan to get out of this mess not telling people they're selfish just because they want to take their kids out for a day and if they do they'll cause another lockdown. This approach is neither sensible nor helpful. This virus is here to stay, we need to learn to live with it. It's controlling us at the moment not the other way around.
 

Belperpete

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I think TfW Rail are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They are required by the Welsh Govt to ensure that people can travel in a covid-safe manner, but have little to no powers to enforce anything.
I really should have listened to yesterday's briefing before posting that, shouldn't I? Apparently the Welsh Govt this week are introducing additional enforcement powers. The minister was a bit vague about what exactly these powers would be (as ever, the devil is in the detail), but under questioning, she said that councils would be expected to take enforcement action to close businesses that weren't following the guidelines, and they were expecting transport operators and the police to take action against people not wearing masks or not social distancing on trains. So in theory could Cardiff council close down Barry Island services if TfW are not enforcing social distancing?
 

Belperpete

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Keeping people stuck in is not on, how much longer is this going on? TfW will still be going on about essential travel in 10 years at this rate. It needs to stop. If virus numbers increase, then they do. We need a proper plan to get out of this mess not telling people they're selfish just because they want to take their kids out for a day and if they do they'll cause another lockdown. This approach is neither sensible nor helpful. This virus is here to stay, we need to learn to live with it. It's controlling us at the moment not the other way around.
And if virus numbers increase, then inevitably the number of people dying will increase. And you are happy to accept that?

As a representative from the WHO said on the radio yesterday, people may be getting fed up with the restrictions, but the virus is not getting fed up with infecting and killing us. As you say, this virus is here to stay, and we need to learn to live with it. And to the majority of the population, learning to live with it means changing our behaviours so that we can keep the virus under control. It does NOT mean just going back to normal and accepting that hundreds of thousands of people will die as a result.
 

Richard Scott

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And if virus numbers increase, then inevitably the number of people dying will increase. And you are happy to accept that?

As a representative from the WHO said on the radio yesterday, people may be getting fed up with the restrictions, but the virus is not getting fed up with infecting and killing us. As you say, this virus is here to stay, and we need to learn to live with it. And to the majority of the population, learning to live with it means changing our behaviours so that we can keep the virus under control. It does NOT mean just going back to normal and accepting that hundreds of thousands of people will die as a result.
Well that's something we're going to have to deal with. There is no one solution fits all, people are dying of other illnesses that under normal circumstances would have been treatable. As I said the virus is controlling us, people are do paranoid about it nothing else counts. TfW seem determined along with Welsh Government to ensure nothing else but virus matters irrespective of consequences. Not a good position to be in. I know I may sound harsh and uncaring, not so, afraid being realistic.
 

Dai Corner

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Well that's something we're going to have to deal with. There is no one solution fits all, people are dying of other illnesses that under normal circumstances would have been treatable. As I said the virus is controlling us, people are do paranoid about it nothing else counts. TfW seem determined along with Welsh Government to ensure nothing else but virus matters irrespective of consequences. Not a good position to be in. I know I may sound harsh and uncaring, not so, afraid being realistic.

There will be no public transport, pubs, restaurants, independent shops, concerts, cinema, theatre or sport unless the paranoia is overcome. Well, maybe there will for those who can afford to pay four or five times the current price. Its easy to frighten people but, as other countries are finding, much more difficult to unfrighten them. Wales hasn't really tried yet.
 

Bletchleyite

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There will be no public transport, pubs, restaurants, independent shops, concerts, cinema, theatre or sport unless the paranoia is overcome. Well, maybe there will for those who can afford to pay four or five times the current price. Its easy to frighten people but, as other countries are finding, much more difficult to unfrighten them.

I think we've very effectively unfrightened people - too much so - almost nobody is doing any form of distancing any more.
 

BRX

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I think this is the first time TfW (not TfW Rail Services) have explicitly said on social media that you can use the trains for leisure purposes.


In answer to a question asking if the train could be used 'for a day out'
Looking at their FAQ:

Can I use public transport?
You can, but you should only do so for essential journeys or if it’s your only option to travel. We’re still running reduced services and want to offer people with no alternative means of transport the possibility to travel as safely as possible.


Please help by only making essential journeys on public transport.

Seems to contradict itself. First, it's for essential journeys or if it's your only option to travel. Then they say it's only for essential journeys.
 

Dai Corner

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No, some were never that bothered, some are still paranoid.

One of the paranoid being Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford who is living in his garden shed for fear of infecting his wife who is in the 'shielding' category. I feel his personal situation may be colouring his view on what's right for Wales as a whole.
 

Furryanimal

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So this just popped up in my inbox



This is just a reminder that in Wales our trains are still only for essential travel and key workers. Please always Travel Safer:

  • Stay safe - in Wales only travel if it’s essential, to help those with no other option, and don’t travel if you’re feeling unwell
  • Avoid busy periods - try not to touch surfaces like buttons, doors or your face and try to avoid eating.
  • Follow our latest travel advice, stay 2 metres apart, wash your hands or use hand sanitiser and wear a face covering.
  • Exercise while you travel - walk or cycle for short journeys if you can.
  • Respect our staff and other passengers at all times.

Also, don’t forget you must wear a face covering on public transport and put it on before travelling, unless you’re exempt. Please be respectful, not everyone can wear a face covering. For guidance visit trc.cymru/face-coverings.​
i am ignoring Barry Island until the schools are back-but with a Sunday bus service and the bus full before it has left Cardiff people will continue to flock to the trains.And note that notice only says Wales....anyone can travel in England
Anway I shall travel if I wish......
 

Belperpete

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Looking at their FAQ:
Seems to contradict itself. First, it's for essential journeys or if it's your only option to travel. Then they say it's only for essential journeys.
Doesn't contradict itself at all. They say it's for essential journeys or if it's your only option to travel. Then they ask people to help by only making essential journeys.
 

AdamWW

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Looking at their FAQ:



Seems to contradict itself. First, it's for essential journeys or if it's your only option to travel. Then they say it's only for essential journeys.

They have been giving the "Essential or if it's your only option" message ocassionaly on Twitter for a few days.
While contradicting it on their web site and sending out repeated emails to remind people that trains in Wales are for essential travel only.
 

AdamWW

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Doesn't contradict itself at all. They say it's for essential journeys or if it's your only option to travel. Then they ask people to help by only making essential journeys.

The Facebook link started off by saying " Use public transport if this is your only option for essential journeys and do not travel unnecessary if you have symptoms of the coronavirus. "
Then when asked about days out the answer was that it was OK. This doesn't seem to be entirely consistent.

(The above appears to be saying that you can use a train with coronavirus symptoms if necessary, which I don't think is the usual advice.)

Their home page says in large writing at the top: " In Wales our trains are for essential travel. "

Not - "In Wales we ask you to use trains only for essential travel"
 

BRX

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Doesn't contradict itself at all. They say it's for essential journeys or if it's your only option to travel. Then they ask people to help by only making essential journeys.
It's not exactly clear messaging. They are saying it would be unhelpful if I did what they just said it was OK for me to do.
 

Belperpete

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There will be no public transport, pubs, restaurants, independent shops, concerts, cinema, theatre or sport unless the paranoia is overcome. Well, maybe there will for those who can afford to pay four or five times the current price. Its easy to frighten people but, as other countries are finding, much more difficult to unfrighten them. Wales hasn't really tried yet.
In my view, it is this kind of ridiculous paranoia that needs to be overcome. Unless we demolish all the pubs, restaurants, etc etc and all their workers and customers die off, then these institutions will not cease to exist. They will just re-emerge under different ownership. And hopefully without the large debt overhead that many of these institutions were previously burdened with.
 

Bletchleyite

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In my view, it is this kind of ridiculous paranoia that needs to be overcome. Unless we demolish all the pubs, restaurants, etc etc and all their workers and customers die off, then these institutions will not cease to exist. They will just re-emerge under different ownership. And hopefully without the large debt overhead that many of these institutions were previously burdened with.

Yes and no. Pubs seem rather easy to convert to flats, and the Co-op seem to be aggressively pursuing turning them into shops.
 

Belperpete

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It's not exactly clear messaging. They are saying it would be unhelpful if I did what they just said it was OK for me to do.
Unfortunately there are far too many on this group who are obviously unable to distinguish between being entitled to do so something, and it being a good idea to do it. Just because you are not legally barred from doing something does not necessarily mean that is good to do so.
 

Belperpete

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Yes and no. Pubs seem rather easy to convert to flats, and the Co-op seem to be aggressively pursuing turning them into shops.
Yes, but lets face it, pubs have long been going the same way as music halls and tobacconists. Pubs were closing at a rate of knots long before covid - all that covid has done is accelerate the inevitable.
 

BRX

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Unfortunately there are far too many on this group who are obviously unable to distinguish between being entitled to do so something, and it being a good idea to do it. Just because you are not legally barred from doing something does not necessarily mean that is good to do so.
There are lots of public health decisions that have to make some kind of weighing up between risk and benefit. There can always be an argument about whether a decision is the right one. How to weigh up the risks of more people being on public transport with the benefits of allowing the non car-owning portion of the public some level of mobility? I don't know. But having made a decision, it should be a clear one. Otherwise you create a situation where the type of people who like to follow rules meticulously remain stuck at home while others travel freely. It doesn't really matter what the legal situation is - it's a matter of stating clearly that the societal decision that's been taken is such and such. So that the risks and benefits can be shared as fairly as possible. So - has Wales taken the decision that leisure travel is OK or not? If the aim is to allow a bit but not too much, then there are better ways of achieving that than by sending out ambiguous messages. For example, asking people to limit the distance they travel, or a suggestion that people try to limit themselves to 1 leisure journey per week, or even some kind of compulsory pre-booking arrangement. These kinds of approaches are fairer to the people who are dilligent in sticking to what they see as the rules that society has "agreed" upon. There will still be people who ignore them, but you can reduce the number of people who end up stuck at home for months while others roam freely.
 
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