Do second hand trains count as "new" trains?

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spotify95

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Wolfie

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They're not "new" Class 360s...
New has two definitions, one of which is "already existing but seen, experienced, or acquired recently or now for the first time". Like it or not, EMR's use of the language is fine.
 

DB

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New has two definitions, one of which is "already existing but seen, experienced, or acquired recently or now for the first time". Like it or not, EMR's use of the language is fine.

But is clearly intended to imply that the trains are 'new' rather than 'new to this route'...
 

Wolfie

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But is clearly intended to imply that the trains are 'new' rather than 'new to this route'...
They are new to EMR. The "new" is written in the context of "our" (i.e. EMR's) ... If you choose to draw other inferences....
 

43096

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But is clearly intended to imply that the trains are 'new' rather than 'new to this route'...
How is it "clearly intended"? The phrase "our new" is correct - they are new to EMR as per the definition of "new" above. Seems there's some who want to create a mountain out of a molehill on this, even though EMR's use of language fine.
 

Wolfie

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How is it "clearly intended"? The phrase "our new" is correct - they are new to EMR as per the definition of "new" above. Seems there's some who want to create a mountain out of a molehill on this, even though EMR's use of language fine.
Exactly. We posted much the same thing at the same time for the same reason.
 

DB

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They are new to EMR. The "new" is written in the context of "our"... If you choose to draw inferences....

How is it "clearly intended"? The phrase "our new" is correct - they are new to EMR as per the definition of "new" above. Seems there's some who want to create a mountain out of a molehill on this, even though EMR's use of language fine.

It's not a case of 'choosing' to draw inferences - it's a standard marketing technique which is specifically intended to convey this impression while not saying anything which isn't actually true. We know on here that these are second-hand trains, but many reading it won't know this.
 

43096

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We know on here that these aren't 'new'as in 'brand new', but the targets of advertising will in many cases not know this and the wording is clearly intended to convey this impression without saying anything which is not technically true.
You have zero proof that that is the case. You are making assumptions based on your own prejudices.
 

DB

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You have zero proof that that is the case. You are making assumptions based on your own prejudices.

No - just from some knowledge of marketing techniques. Just ask some random members of the public what they would thing the phrase 'new' would mean as applied to a train.
 

spotify95

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New has two definitions, one of which is "already existing but seen, experienced, or acquired recently or now for the first time". Like it or not, EMR's use of the language is fine.
New is defined as "not previously used or owned". Otherwise it would be used. The 810s which will be seen on the MML in a few years are not currently in existence and are being built for EMR customers to use for the first time. Therefore they are definitely new trains.
The 360s were built and first used almost 20 years ago and were previously used by other operators - therefore, by definition, they're not new !
 

Wolfie

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New is defined as "not previously used or owned". Otherwise it would be used. The 810s which will be seen on the MML in a few years are not currently in existence and are being built for EMR customers to use for the first time. Therefore they are definitely new trains.
The 360s were built and first used almost 20 years ago and were previously used by other operators - therefore, by definition, they're not new !
Interesting that you purport to know more than a dictionary..
 

43096

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No - just from some knowledge of marketing techniques. Just ask some random members of the public what they would thing the phrase 'new' would mean as applied to a train.

New is defined as "not previously used or owned". Otherwise it would be used. The 810s which will be seen on the MML in a few years are not currently in existence and are being built for EMR customers to use for the first time. Therefore they are definitely new trains.
The 360s were built and first used almost 20 years ago and were previously used by other operators - therefore, by definition, they're not new !
Sorry, but you're both wrong.

If someone says "I've bought a new house" or "I got a new car" do you assume they are newly built?
 

Wolfie

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It's not a case of 'choosing' to draw inferences - it's a standard marketing technique which is specifically intended to convey this impression while not saying anything which isn't actually true. We know on here that these are second-hand trains, but many reading it won't know this.
Agreed. Not the first time that's been done.
 

Aictos

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But they ARE new to the route therefore EMR is right in what they say, I brought myself a refurbished phone last year which although second hand was new to me therefore I'm right in saying I've got a new phone.
 

MML

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Presumably EMRs 'new' 360s are being introduced into revenue service in May with new interiors. They are the old threadbare former GA interiors with 3+2 commuter seating. But those interiors will be new for EMR customers who are paying inter-city prices.
I'm beginning to get the hang of this new PR propaganda.
 

Ianno87

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Presumably EMRs 'new' 360s are being introduced into revenue service in May with new interiors. They are the old threadbare former GA interiors with 3+2 commuter seating. But those interiors will be new for EMR customers who are paying inter-city prices.
I'm beginning to get the hang of this new PR propaganda.

Most real, normal, passengers will think it's a new train and be perfectly happy about it.
 

DB

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Presumably EMRs 'new' 360s are being introduced into revenue service in May with new interiors. They are the old threadbare former GA interiors with 3+2 commuter seating. But those interiors will be new for EMR customers who are paying inter-city prices.
I'm beginning to get the hang of this new PR propaganda.

I remember Northern's take on this with the 150s. It was 'as new', which meant the existing crap interiors with a lick of paint, some new lino and replacement seat covers.
 

Starmill

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Most real, normal, passengers will think it's a new train and be perfectly happy about it.
In my experience, "real" passengers are rather more likely to complain about a train service than "enthusiast" passengers, because they've absolutely no interest whatsoever in why the prices are so high, or why the carpets are so threadbare and the seats so narrow you. Also, they won't generally use a train unless they actually have to. Or to use fewer words if a train that's a mess turns up they'll be rather more put off than an enthusiast, who might appreciate that it won't always look so grotty.
 

DB

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Most real, normal, passengers will think it's a new train and be perfectly happy about it.

Not in their current state they won't! And there's no way they will have been repainted and fitted with new interiors by May, given that the contract hasn't even been awarded yet.
 

swt_passenger

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I remember Northern's take on this with the 150s. It was 'as new', which meant the existing crap interiors with a lick of paint, some new lino and replacement seat covers.
But in this case they’re replacing 3+2 seating throughout with 2+2, and relocating first class. Although not before they start EMR service.
 

DB

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But in this case they’re replacing 3+2 seating throughout with 2+2, and relocating first class. Although not before they start EMR service.

Yes, it will probably be a decent job.

My point was the way the word 'new' gets misused.
 

Shunter_69

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‘Threadbare’ is a bit deceiving. It may have been a few years since the seat covers were replaced but they are far from being worn out.
 

Mordac

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I remember Northern's take on this with the 150s. It was 'as new', which meant the existing crap interiors with a lick of paint, some new lino and replacement seat covers.
That's another interesting one. In that context, does 'as new' mean 'just like a new train,' or 'just like when this train was new?'
 

Merle Haggard

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Well, I've now been convinced by the logic expressed in this thread - the 360s ARE new trains!!!

And I now realise how lucky EMR passengers are with so many new trains in the last few months; the new 180s, the new LNER HSTs; new 170s; new 156s the list goes on.

Wow :lol:
 

py_megapixel

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Well, I've now been convinced by the logic expressed in this thread - the 360s ARE new trains!!!

And I now realise how lucky EMR passengers are with so many new trains in the last few months; the new 180s, the new LNER HSTs; new 170s; new 156s the list goes on.

Wow :lol:
Surely you can see how taking a fleet which is only about halfway through its life and fully refurbishing it (170, 360) could more easily be considered "new" than taking a life-expired one and pressing it into service with minimal changes as a stop-gap (HSTs, 156, 180)?
 

Energy

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Surely you can see how taking a fleet which is only about halfway through its life and fully refurbishing it (170, 360) could more easily be considered "new" than taking a life-expired one and pressing it into service with minimal changes as a stop-gap (HSTs, 156, 180)?
Indeed, looking at the 170 refurbs it looks new from the inside bar the PIS displays. The HSTs, 156s and 180s are very temporary.
 
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