Do train guards ever 'nod off'?

[johntea]

There are of course several stories of train drivers drifting off at the controls due to fatique / lack of sleep (not always their fault of course), but have train guards ever been known to nod off?

Obviously they're not just going to drop off walking up and down the train carrying out ticket inspections and the like but what keeps their mind occupied in the cab? (I'm just imagining myself on a long motorway journey in the passenger seat!)

Not suggesting I have ever seen something like this happen (or that guards are lazy!) just randomly curious...probably more likely to happen on a longer distance service with greater distance between stations than local commuter services I suppose

 

[LowLevel]

If the guard nods off the consequences are less severe than the driver unless something occurs you need to react to quickly so you're unlikely to hear about it. You use your non technical skills to combat it. If you feel yourself starting to nod unlike being stuck in the driving seat it's easy to do something about it, go for a walk around the train, stand up, have a drink etc.

 

[the sniper]

but have train guards ever been known to nod off?

Yes.

Isn't that what platform staff are there for, to let the Guard know they've arrived, if the doors don't open...?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If the guard nods off the consequences are less severe than the driver unless something occurs you need to react to quickly so you're unlikely to hear about it. You use your non technical skills to combat it. If you feel yourself starting to nod unlike being stuck in the driving seat it's easy to do something about it, go for a walk around the train, stand up, have a drink etc.

Spot on

Isn't that what platform staff are there for, to let the Guard know they've arrived, if the doors don't open...?

While technically true in practice the doors not opening promptly on arrival is far more likely to be due to the guard being busy with some other passenger related business in the train. In the hypothetical situation of a guard nodding off in the back cab it's likely that the action of rolling wheels on rails will have contributed to their falling asleep. As such it's also likely that the cessation of that sensation will very quickly bring them round again.

 

[the sniper]

In the hypothetical situation of a guard nodding off in the back cab it's likely that the action of rolling wheels on rails will have contributed to their falling asleep. As such it's also likely that the cessation of that sensation will very quickly bring them round again.

Failing that, a T Key tapping on the window will do the job!

More common on end of the day ECS moves though, which can be an hour of more sat in the dark with no obligations. I've heard of one Guard wake up just in time to avoid the crew taking their train out for their early turn.

 

[Horizon22]

They probably do although I'd doubt anyone would admit it. Saying that there should be no excuses as they can walk through the train and - which is good customer service anyway.

 

[M60lad]

I was on my way home from Manchester Victoria on a tram earlier this week and after a train had left the station it was running alongside us for a bit and I noticed from the back cab that the guard had got a book out and started to read it due to ticket checks not being done at Northern at the moment so thats one way of keeping them awake, I'm sure another way would be depending on traction keeping the windows open in the cab.

 

[LCC106]

Reading a newspaper, magazine or books, going on Facebook, doing a crossword but yes, some will use the time when travelling Empty Coaching Stock specifically for a nap. Guards have told me that they’ve woken up before to passengers looking in through the cab window at them. Should they be doing these things? Some may argue they shouldn’t but if they’ve done all their duties and it’s ages until their next station I wouldn’t expect them to sit there twiddling their thumbs.

 

[PennineSuperb]

I have been a guard for 8 years now and the key to avoid this is preparation. At my depot we have shifts that start from 0123. It's not always possible to get a full night sleep the day before especially if you have come off a bank of rest days. I struggled with this at first but now I find it much easier. I start the day before by getting up earlier than I would (0500-0600). Yes I would like a lie in but I will find something to do, watch some TV, take the dog for a walk etc. I plan that day out and make sure I have meals well before I plan on going to sleep. I try not to do anything too arduous and just take it steady. Trying to get to bed early is easier said than done. If I went at 1700 I would get little sleep, waking up, clock watching etc. If I drag that out to maybe 1900 I would get more quality sleep but less of it. I also look forward to going to work which is better than thinking about how rubbish it is to get up at 0020!
Get up nice and early, have a shower and get dressed. When I get to work I try to keep up to date with the latest information, be that infrastructure changes, retail changes etc. If I am feeling tired I generally have plenty of lunch and a coffee. Or a walk about and have some mints and water. I like to review my routes too and revisit route maps to check for inconsistencies in knowledge. Our company is very keen we have excellent route knowledge and I think this is brilliant. Of course some less keen Guards are different and do fall asleep, but I enjoy my job and I want to use my time wisely whilst at work to keep myself up to date.
Sorry for babbling a little off topic.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure they do on occasion. Just like people working in an office.

 

[LowLevel]

Should point out quickly though that "pass" moves including ECS are a fair game for a bit of shut eye. Personally I struggle to nap on duty on trains but some folk can switch off like a light. Short naps are proven to help maintain your concentration when you do need it. Making sure to set an alarm to avoid embarrassing errors is the key. Most ECS moves are Driver Only Operated - Non Passenger though we do have a handful of class 5s that are booked to have a guard for one reason or another.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Failing that, a T Key tapping on the window will do the job!

Only once in 30 years has that happened to me and I take great steps not to let it happem again. It's worse at the end of an early turn and trick is not to let yourself get bored. Read something,chat to someone but be situationally aware. Look out for landmarks or just the view. It's easy to put your feet up on the desk or tip the seat back but that's when the eyelids become heavy.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I have been a guard for 8 years now and the key to avoid this is preparation. At my depot we have shifts that start from 0123. It's not always possible to get a full night sleep the day before especially if you have come off a bank of rest days. I struggled with this at first but now I find it much easier. I start the day before by getting up earlier than I would (0500-0600). Yes I would like a lie in but I will find something to do, watch some TV, take the dog for a walk etc. I plan that day out and make sure I have meals well before I plan on going to sleep. I try not to do anything too arduous and just take it steady. Trying to get to bed early is easier said than done. If I went at 1700 I would get little sleep, waking up, clock watching etc. If I drag that out to maybe 1900 I would get more quality sleep but less of it. I also look forward to going to work which is better than thinking about how rubbish it is to get up at 0020!
Get up nice and early, have a shower and get dressed. When I get to work I try to keep up to date with the latest information, be that infrastructure changes, retail changes etc. If I am feeling tired I generally have plenty of lunch and a coffee. Or a walk about and have some mints and water. I like to review my routes too and revisit route maps to check for inconsistencies in knowledge. Our company is very keen we have excellent route knowledge and I think this is brilliant. Of course some less keen Guards are different and do fall asleep, but I enjoy my job and I want to use my time wisely whilst at work to keep myself up to date.
Sorry for babbling a little off topic.

And that is exactly the right way! Your comment about refreshing your knowledge is particularly important. Will never cease to amaze me how little effort some Guards and Drivers will put into keeping on top of their knowledge and then panicking when something out of the ordinary happens. If you're passing/sat spare then you can literally get paid to refresh routes/rules/traction on your terms!

 

[TheManWho]

I have been a guard for 8 years now and the key to avoid this is preparation. At my depot we have shifts that start from 0123. It's not always possible to get a full night sleep the day before especially if you have come off a bank of rest days. I struggled with this at first but now I find it much easier. I start the day before by getting up earlier than I would (0500-0600). Yes I would like a lie in but I will find something to do, watch some TV, take the dog for a walk etc. I plan that day out and make sure I have meals well before I plan on going to sleep. I try not to do anything too arduous and just take it steady. Trying to get to bed early is easier said than done. If I went at 1700 I would get little sleep, waking up, clock watching etc. If I drag that out to maybe 1900 I would get more quality sleep but less of it. I also look forward to going to work which is better than thinking about how rubbish it is to get up at 0020!
Get up nice and early, have a shower and get dressed. When I get to work I try to keep up to date with the latest information, be that infrastructure changes, retail changes etc. If I am feeling tired I generally have plenty of lunch and a coffee. Or a walk about and have some mints and water. I like to review my routes too and revisit route maps to check for inconsistencies in knowledge. Our company is very keen we have excellent route knowledge and I think this is brilliant. Of course some less keen Guards are different and do fall asleep, but I enjoy my job and I want to use my time wisely whilst at work to keep myself up to date.
Sorry for babbling a little off topic.

As this post says, preparation is they key and always use your NTS to keep alert when you're tired. In my view, there's not really any excuse for "nodding off" whilst at work.

I always used keep a pack of Halls Extra Strength Menthol sweets on me on earlies- if I felt myself getting tired have one of then. I always try to not to sleep in the afternoons as well, ruins my nights sleep even if I doze off for half hour in the afternoon

 

[PupCuff]

It's certainly not looked on favourably at all, but I've no doubt it will have happened. The saving grace is that a conductor doesn't tend to have any pressing safety duties to attend to between stations (ie, where a driver has to respond to signals and control train speed etc at pain of potential injuries or death a conductor does not), though you're clearly going to have some difficult questions to answer if you wake up and find yourself five miles down a route you don't sign because you were asleep when the driver accepted the diversion, or if you're woken by the train derailing in the pitch black and have no clue where you are. Generally though those types of eventualities are very rare. A much bigger risk for a conductor is them being effectively asleep - that is to say, awake but badly fatigued; it only takes a moment's lapse in concentration to open the doors on the wrong side, or to dispatch against a red, or to miss the person trapped in the doors by their coat on a busy platform and give the right away. As a poster above commented good preparation and good shiftworker lifestyle techniques are key to avoid fatigue, and the temptation of taking 40 winks between stops.

 

[contrex]

My uncle got a job as a goods guard on the LMS but was sacked after being found dead drunk in his van. Typical of him, unfortunately. He made a load of money as a master bricklayer but drank most of it away.

 

[urbophile]

A bit off topic but this discussion reminds me of the vicar who dreamt he was preaching in St Paul's Cathedral; then he woke up to realise that he actually was.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the day when freight guards rode in the back cab , - with not a lot to do frankly , I am sure some serious napping was done - especially with good cab heating.

 

[185]

Drivers have a snooze pedal to wake them up every 2 mins.

 

[grumblingalong]

Yes, basically, every depot has a story of a particularly embarrassing situation that has come about from it! When I first started in my late teens I found early turns very tricky, it was completely against my body clock but, I soon learnt to have my eyes shut and resting without actually nodding off. Luckily for me most of our early turns were very revenue duties heavy, funny how awake the prospect of 4% of your takings can suddenly make you!

 

[reb0118]

I am an expert on building nests on trains. Any excuse for a nap. I used to carry a hi viz sleeping bag as essential kit.

 

[High Dyke]

Should point out quickly though that "pass" moves including ECS are a fair game for a bit of shut eye. Personally I struggle to nap on duty on trains but some folk can switch off like a light. Short naps are proven to help maintain your concentration when you do need it. Making sure to set an alarm to avoid embarrassing errors is the key. Most ECS moves are Driver Only Operated - Non Passenger though we do have a handful of class 5s that are booked to have a guard for one reason or another.

And my good lady still hates getting up so early for those sorts of turns.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

I saw this happen last year on an early Saturday morning East Coastway service out of Victoria. I got on at Pevensey & Westham just before 6am and sat near the bike area. The guard kept sitting down across the aisle from me and falling straight to sleep repeatedly between every stop. He woke up immediately whenever the train stopped (which was quite often) and somewhat drowsily got up to do the doors.

I took a photo to prove to myself I hadn't imagined it, but it's on my old phone and I wouldn't put it in the public domain anyway.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I saw this happen last year on an early Saturday morning East Coastway service out of Victoria. I got on at Pevensey & Westham just before 6am and sat near the bike area. The guard kept sitting down across the aisle from me and falling straight to sleep repeatedly between every stop. He woke up immediately whenever the train stopped (which was quite often) and somewhat drowsily got up to do the doors.

I took a photo to prove to myself I hadn't imagined it, but it's on my old phone and I wouldn't put it in the public domain anyway.

Sounds like that wasn't a guard, but rather an On Board Supervisor. OBSs aren't a safety critical member of staff on Southern services, so whilst this clearly was not something you'd like to see, it probably didn't break the Rulebook.

 

[Bigfoot]

I used to work with a guard who could fall asleep standing up mid conversation. Wouldn't fall over, just stand there snoring.

 

[Dave W]

I’ve had a fleeting look through the Railways Archive - I suspect as very few instances of the guard definitely being asleep (as opposed to being merely inattentive) lead to incidents, they’re not well documented beyond the various potted histories of depots aforementioned!

One I did find was an accident at Bradley near Huddersfield in 1873 where a guard was “either drunk or asleep” enough to fail to apply brakes, causing a runaway: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Bradley1873.pdf

There are likely to be others, but the ever diminishing role of the guard in the direct running of the train probably rules out a sleeping guard being the immediate cause of an incident more recently, although a deeper dive into the archive might reveal incidents where it was a contributory factor.

 

[pompeyfan]

When SWT/SWR desiros used to have offices for the guard, you’d regularly get an ‘angry of Surrey’ posting on social media that it was disgusting the guard was sat down reading a paper/book, even though the train was practically empty and a full revenue check had just taken place. On a couple of occasions though guards were snapped with their eyes closed, likely to be asleep. This obviously isn’t a good look for the company and I can only assume words were had.

 

[tony6499]

Frequently, your body clock is all over the place thanks to shifts but the key is to grab a nap somewhere privately when you can

 

[Tom Quinne]

When I was a guard at Silverlink we had a turn around 2005-06 where we relived a central trains crew at Rugby, the train than ran fast via the old line to Euston just shy of an hour later.

The train has started at Crewe, so seldom had anymore than half a dozen passengers on from rugby. You’d do your walk through/ticket check by Hillmorton then you had about 55 minutes with nothing to do.

On more than one occasion I woke up as we hit the platform at Euston, or a loud tap on the cab window by the station staff !

I must of been well out of if on that occasion as we came in in P18 so the staff had to come over from P8-11 !

 

[6Gman]

I am sure they do on occasion. Just like people working in an office.

Or on the intern . . . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz