Do trains have different driving qualities?

[RailProfileUK]

Something I have always wondered? Do different locomotive manufacturers provide different qualities for driving? Acceleration, braking, drivers view, comfort etc... I don't drive them myself had plenty of cab rides, 37's, 47's, 60's, 66's.

 

[TDK]

Something I have always wondered? Do different locomotive manufacturers provide different qualities for driving? Acceleration, braking, drivers view, comfort etc... I don't drive them myself had plenty of cab rides, 37's, 47's, 60's, 66's.

Yes, all loco's are different including loco's from the same class

 

[DarloRich]

Something I have always wondered? Do different locomotive manufacturers provide different qualities for driving? Acceleration, braking, drivers view, comfort etc... I don't drive them myself had plenty of cab rides, 37's, 47's, 60's, 66's.

do all cars perform the same way?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The difference between trains can be a lot bigger than between cars though, especially between classes of trains. Driving a locomotive hauled rake is a completely different experience from driving a DMU for example.

 

[DarloRich]

The difference between trains can be a lot bigger than between cars though, especially between classes of trains. Driving a locomotive hauled rake is a completely different experience from driving a DMU for example.

i agree - i am just pointing out the fact that if cars are different to drive how much more must the differences between 100 ton locomotives and light pacers

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Agreed, but the interface in a car is pretty much the same no matter what you drive. It's a steering wheel and some pedals, the biggest difference is whether you have manual or automatic transmission.

In train the controls can be hugely different. Look at the cab of, say, a Class 66 locomotive compared to a Class 170 DMU.

 

[notadriver]

As a coach driver I find that the way a vehicle drives differs considerably even within the same batch. The diesel multiple unit trains are similarly different. But modern electric multiple units (Electrostars) seem identical in performance at times.

 

[RailProfileUK]

To be honest it was cars that that brought me on to the subject.

do you get some "Cheap" manufacturers which provide poor reliability and hard plastic controls for example and others which are very well designed and a pleasure to drive. Can you compare freights to passenger? And do you often drive the same locomotives? Can you personalise the cab i.e. hang an air freshner?

I applied for DB to be a driver at Peak Forest when the vacancies came up but unfortunately most of the shunters got the driving job but DB did say I will get the oppertunity to become a shunter when the jobs get advertised. I would like to be a train driver (freight, like alot of us) and I understand you have to work your way up through some companies to get in the driving seat but it would be a large drop in pay becoming a shunter and DB also said they couldn't say how long I would have to do shunting before more driving vacancies came up.

 

[notadriver]

Just my opinion but I think locos are for the driver. More cab space due to not sharing with passengers but having the engine behind you could mean lots of vibration and heat. I understand the 66's were blacklisted for a while for poor cab comfort.

Again just my opinion, the newer the unit is the better it is for the driver. For example most drivers prefer a 375 over a 465.

 

[O L Leigh]

Generally speaking, train manufacturers consider the drivers last of all, whether it's down to ergonomics, cab environment or ease of use. Certainly they give no thought to what each train is "like to drive" and giving them characteristics. They are what they are.

But yes, they are all different to drive. I recently took on two new classes of train in the last two years, and they were all very different from each other. They have good points and bad points, but very few seem to get the balance right between all the factors that traincrew would consider. Newer is generally better than older, but maintenance has a lot to do with it.

O L Leigh

 

[LE Greys]

I can't really speak for modern traction, but with steam locos, there were vast differences between different classes. Some slipped a lot on starting (Bulleid Pacifics were notorious for this, but anything with a trailing pony truck can slip, ever a sure-footed Duchess) while others tended to start smoothly (9Fs were probably the best). Some rode really well and others really badly, the Gresley Pacifics were excellent riders, the Thompson and Peppercorn designs less so, while L1 tanks were so bad their crews called them 'Cement Mixers' (design of the leading bogie helps there). Some steamed better than others, that's where draughting comes in (note how Duke of Gloucester improved when fitted with a Kylchap exhaust). Different driving wheel sizes gave different adhesion profiles and different 'best speeds'. Within a class, there were good 'uns and bad 'uns (in general, the bad 'uns were just badly looked after, but some were supposedly just horrible). On the day, poor coal or hard water could clinker a fire or fur up a boiler, while a bit of grit in the oil could lead to a big-end failure. Crew comfort largely came from cab design. Many Victorian engines depended upon tarpaulins to keep the rain out, while BR Standards had a tender cab, so could keep the rain out even while running backwards. A1s pioneered padded seats, while some other lines had no seats at all. It might have been fun sometimes, but it was hard back then.

 

[Southern313]

Subclasses of units perform differently as well, 377/1 step one brake is noticeably better then 377/4 for example.

 

[corin paul]

Drivers use to say one of the Deltic's (Not sure which) was better than the rest of the class. So even in the same class they can perform different.

 

[David]

Agreed, but the interface in a car is pretty much the same no matter what you drive. It's a steering wheel and some pedals, the biggest difference is whether you have manual or automatic transmission.

Try going from a Clio to a Kia Sedona* then. Want to indicate left? Oh, there goes the wipers ....

Go to change gears? Oops, that will be the 'handbrake' you've just stepped on instead of the clutch!

*1.2 Clio and a 2.9 turbo diesel Sedona (automatic). And yes, I did make both those mistakes. More than once ....

Anyway, getting back to the original question. Just look at the huge gaps in performance in fleets from a single TOC. TPE for example. The 185s go like the proverbial of a shovel, where as the 170s need a long downhill grade and a goodly tail wind to get up to linespeed!

 

[notadriver]

I think it would be a challenge for a non-train driver to figure out how to get a train moving as a comparison especially if the loco/unit was shut down.

 

[MCR247]

where as the 170s need a long downhill grade and a goodly tail wind to get up to linespeed!

and an ECS movement

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Try going from a Clio to a Kia Sedona* then. Want to indicate left? Oh, there goes the wipers ....

Go to change gears? Oops, that will be the 'handbrake' you've just stepped on instead of the clutch!

*1.2 Clio and a 2.9 turbo diesel Sedona (automatic). And yes, I did make both those mistakes. More than once ....

Anyway, getting back to the original question. Just look at the huge gaps in performance in fleets from a single TOC. TPE for example. The 185s go like the proverbial of a shovel, where as the 170s need a long downhill grade and a goodly tail wind to get up to linespeed!

I appreciate the sentiment, but all you are really talking about are the same controls in different locations. I remember the first time I sat in a locomotive after years of driving DMUs and I was told there were three seperate brakes, none of which worked in the same way I was used to. It blew my tiny little mind. :P

 

[O L Leigh]

The 170s need a long downhill grade and a goodly tail wind to get up to linespeed!

Any other Turbostar drivers recognise this sort of thing...? :roll:

O L Leigh

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Yes. They are pretty slow off the mark, but they will sit at 100 all day long.

 

[O L Leigh]

Got to say I've never had one refuse to hit linespeed. No they aren't as fast as some units, but they pull well enough for what they are. 100mph is no problem whatsoever.

O L Leigh

 

[notadriver]

I can get to 90 within about 2.5 minutes - although the initial gradient is downhill.

 

[TOCDriver]

LOL Nice question, but even trains within the same class can handle differently, especially the crap that I operate. Never had any experience of 170's but trains were never built for standing acceleration in mind; just cruising ability and good torque within the upper power band to negotiate gradients and maintaining the line speed. EMU's tend to be quick accelerators from standing simply because their peak torque is available instantly. And as for the controls, I would love to have a go at the class 87 locos - very unique machines indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2s0pRnoD5E

 

[rebmcr]

and an ECS movement

Is there a noticable difference in performance then, depending on loading?

 

[A-driver]

I can get to 90 within about 2.5 minutes - although the initial gradient is downhill.

I thought you drove for LOROL? Have you moved TOCs?

 

[A-driver]

Is there a noticable difference in performance then, depending on loading?

Can be, not that noticeable though, you can tell in the morning rush hour that the train is pretty full as acceleration can be slightly affected. It shouldn't have any effect on braking though as many units automatically put extra brake pressure in when the loading gets higher (known as the 'fat man bar').

Although heavy loading can actually help braking in some conditions.

 

[notadriver]

On 378s you could definitely tell it was loaded even though the motors increase their starting tractive effort to compensate for the weight. On DC lines longer trains have current limitations imposed on them affecting performance.

 

[A-driver]

On 378s you could definitely tell it was loaded even though the motors increase their starting tractive effort to compensate for the weight. On DC lines longer trains have current limitations imposed on them affecting performance.

That is very true, when I moved from DC to AC I noticed a huge difference, on DC an 8 car train is noticeably more sluggish at pulling away than a 4. On AC an 8 car is often faster off the mark than a 4.

 

[RailProfileUK]

So in a diesel loco for example what are you looking for on the gauges to get it moving? I noticed the class 87 AC video it was on off on off the power to get it rolling then off he went. I know they have the amp gauge (or something like that) when you put it into the first notch I take it the amps drop as the traction motors transfer it to the wheels, then you click it back to let the amps build up again? Once its rolling with experience you can probably tell which notch to put it in just like gears in a car?

with not driving a loco I wouldn't know I just assume this is how it works from watching freight drivers I have cab rode with. What are the general gauges for in a loco and what is the most important one to look out for (as well as your speedo)

Cheers

 

[TDK]

So in a diesel loco for example what are you looking for on the gauges to get it moving? I noticed the class 87 AC video it was on off on off the power to get it rolling then off he went. I know they have the amp gauge (or something like that) when you put it into the first notch I take it the amps drop as the traction motors transfer it to the wheels, then you click it back to let the amps build up again? Once its rolling with experience you can probably tell which notch to put it in just like gears in a car?

with not driving a loco I wouldn't know I just assume this is how it works from watching freight drivers I have cab rode with. What are the general gauges for in a loco and what is the most important one to look out for (as well as your speedo)

Cheers

Main res pipe pressure - without main air brakes will apply

 

[rebmcr]

I noticed the class 87 AC video it was on off on off the power to get it rolling then off he went. I know they have the amp gauge (or something like that) when you put it into the first notch I take it the amps drop as the traction motors transfer it to the wheels, then you click it back to let the amps build up again? Once its rolling with experience you can probably tell which notch to put it in just like gears in a car?

On an 86 or an 87, the power handle doesn't have notches, it has positions Off, Run Down, Tap Down, Hold, Tap Up, and Run Up. The 'Tap' positions will return to Hold by themselves.

You nudge it up and down from the Hold position like the gear shift paddles in an F1 car, to select from 38 'taps' — which are outlets evenly inserted along the main transformer winding.

That regulates the amps available to the traction motors from the transformer — give it too many at a low speed and the breakers will trip. There's also a "keep adding taps" setting at the top of the power handle called Run Up, and the equivalent near the other end.

What you will have seen is the driver select the 5th or 6th tap to get going, then move into Run Up so as to keep adding taps automatically as it speeds up, all the way to the 38th. Upon reaching 38th, if you're cruising at max speed you would generally return to the Hold position, and despite the handle being at halfway, you're still applying full power.

There's an Ammeter display, with green, amber, and red zones and a needle to indicate how much excess current is going to the motors (push yellow for better acceleration and an unhappy mechanic), and a Tap display that shows which of the 38 you have selected.