• Dear Guest, and welcome to RailUK Forums. Our non-railway discussion forums are currently restricted until members have five or more posts, and you will not be able to make a new thread or reply to an existing one in this section until you have made five or more posts elsewhere on the forum.

Do you support the junior doctors' strike?

Do you support the junior doctors' strike?

  • Yes

    Votes: 86 72.9%
  • No

    Votes: 32 27.1%

  • Total voters
    118
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

kelv

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2015
Messages
249
Location
cheshire
Anyone standing up to this government and refusing to be ridden over roughshod deserves support .... especially from anyone that's a member of a trade union.
 

Blindtraveler

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
7,842
Location
Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
Torys equals cuts, fact. SNP voters giving cutting tory idiots a back door key to Westminster equals complaisant cutting torys. Victims of this? Us the public and our services so support them we must!

This is my own view so please respect this.
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,517
I do support the Junior Doctors, my colleagues, in England.

First of all a disclaimer - I am a junior doctor. I work in Scotland, so I am not affected by this debacle and I am not striking. Our government in Scotland has taken the correct decision not to impose this contract, as has the government of Wales. However, I fully support the decisions made by my English colleagues to pursue strike action over this ludicrous situation.

This contract is simply not fair to junior doctors, and it is simply not safe for the public. This contract has been poorly thought through, and does not lead to the supposed benefits claimed by the government.

The current junior doctor's rota pays us from working 7am-7pm Monday-Friday, with a "banding" supplement for our out-of-hours work. This varies from 0% supplement (for junior doctors working solely within the designated working hours) to 50% (where doctors cover a large number of night and weekend shifts). Most doctors work on a 40-50% supplement, such is the demands of their OOH work. Non-banded jobs are vanishingly rare, and even trainees working in specialties where their work is entirely within working hours will often work elsewhere in the NHS (for example, GP trainees working in A&E on some weekends, dermatology trainees working on medical wards) out-of-hours to support inpatient services. Supplements up to 100% do exist, however this exists as a penalty for boards and trusts who have instigated illegal rotas. I know plenty of people who have received 100% banding for their jobs because the rota was monitored as "non-compliant" - these jobs would often have junior doctors working regularly in excess of 72 hours in a week. The contract at the moment is fair, in that out-of-hours work is rewarded and recognised. Many of us question many details of the current contracts, but the basic principle is sound. Those who work more out-of-hours shifts are paid more.

Mr Hunt consistently makes the claim that the contract reforms are required to deliver the government's manifesto pledge of a seven day NHS. I'm not entirely sure what Mr Hunt thinks junior doctors get up to at weekends, but I can assure you that we do work seven days a week. Some of my colleagues work a rota where they are at work on two out of every three weekends. There is no barrier to weekend working in the current junior doctor rota, and there is nothing that needs to change to enable us to come in at weekends. We do come in at weekends. This is in stark contrast to Jeremy Hunt, who does not offer surgeries on weekends.

If Jeremy Hunt was truly concerned about a seven day NHS, he would not be targeting the junior doctors. Alongside nurses, you'd be hard pressed to find people in the NHS who do more OOH work than the junior doctors. In fact, in some of my jobs, even with half the number of doctors on at the weekend, the workload is lighter because other services are not available. With limited laboratory, radiology, cardiology, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and social services available, a lot of our time is spent listing things that we can't do until Monday morning. Increasing the number of doctors in these jobs without increasing the provision of other services would be a waste of money. Where there is demand for more weekend doctors, the rota is not the issue.

In fact, the new contract removes safeguards that prevent junior doctors working excessive hours. It increases weekend working provision without any similar increase in pay, which hits junior doctors who have families and children. The alleged pay rise is more than offset by the decrease in OOH payments, which will actually increase the pay of those who work fewer weekends and nights whilst decreasing the pay of those who have more OOH commitments.

The reality is that to provide a full seven day service, the NHS requires more doctors. It also requires more nurses and more allied health professionals. This cannot happen overnight - it takes five years to train a doctor to Foundation level, and a minimum of six years to get a fully qualified doctor thereafter (often, it takes more time). With the government reducing funding for the NHS and making access to higher education harder, we simply cannot generate enough professionals to provide the service Mr Hunt wants.

Jeremy Hunt claims that weekend mortality rates are higher because of hospital staffing levels. Yet, he has no evidence which allows him to make this claim. The evidence demonstrating increased mortality at weekends does not draw any correlation between staffing and mortality, and indeed does often demonstrate that there are other factors at work, for example an increase in the severity of patients admitted at the weekend. Mr Hunt's misuse of the data has been criticised by the authors of the studies involved, and if he was a doctor, he'd undoubtedly be facing an investigation from the GMC (as did former doctor Andrew Wakefield, in an investigation into his discredit studies linking the MMR vaccination with autism).

Hunt's story does not make any sense. If he wants a seven day NHS, he needs to invest in people and skills. Instead, he has embarked on a policy of demeaning and demoralising medical professionals. Doctors have been negotiating for four years. Jeremy Hunt's last comments on this issue were "the matter is closed". If he does not want to negotiate, the BMA have little option but to escalate their action. Doctors do not want to strike, but Hunt has left us with little alternative. If Jeremy Hunt refuses to do anything to prevent a full walk-out, he is not fit to lead the NHS. He is ignoring the issue and hoping that it will go away. With many doctors actively considering leaving the NHS in England (and Scotland is certainly a winner here, with our training posts oversubscribed), he will eventually need to do something. He can't bury his head in the sand and expect it to go away. It won't.
 

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,031
Location
The UK
We have a balance of about 90% for/10% against. I'd be interested to hear the explanations and views of those who are against.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,096
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
I do support the Junior Doctors, my colleagues, in England.

First of all a disclaimer - I am a junior doctor.........

deleted rest for space purposes.


Insert hand clap icon here. Very well put and you have my respect and admiration.

Oh and for what it is worth I support the strike. Instead of denigrating the NHS we as a nation should be praising its existence and doing everything possible to preserve it. We ALL rely upon it to treat us, free at the point of use, when we are ill. It is something we should treat as a wonder of the modern world rather than as a whipping boy for political ambition and dogma.
 
Last edited:

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,984
They go after the junior doctors, then the disabled, then you and me. I wonder who they won't go after.
 

Clip

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,616
What a very balanced and well reasoned post from me123 and I agree with them totally.

But, they mention a mon -fri working week and the weekend is on OT( forgive me if I misread it) so I think, though its not been proven by Hunt, that instead of that it would be a sun-sat working week with little OT.

However in saying that if he wants it he will have to hire more ****ing people and not rely on agencies or OT. Will never happen

Also Im not voting
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
27,377
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
We have a balance of about 90% for/10% against. I'd be interested to hear the explanations and views of those who are against.

Do you realise that there will be a number of forum members who will neither make a posting nor vote on this poll which names them for fear of any subsequent posting of unpleasant postings that will follow that could lead to acrimonious repercussions that will then see intervention by the forum moderators.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
No one needs to vote if they don't want to, just as no on e needs to post comments on the thread. I hope that we can have a mature discussion with respect being shown towards anyone who might happen to have different views. Those views can be challenged, but there is no justification in getting personal.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
Do you realise that there will be a number of forum members who will neither make a posting nor vote on this poll which names them for fear of any subsequent posting of unpleasant postings that will follow that could lead to acrimonious repercussions that will then see intervention by the forum moderators.

Paul, on this point I completely agree with you. Why the OP thought it would be a good idea to publish the names of people who don't support the strike action is beyond me, unless they of course wanted to promote division. I have a great deal of sympathy towards the junior doctors in England but I don't see why the OP should be trying to make an example of those who don't.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
As I say, if the idea of a public poll makes anyone uncomfortable, then feel free not to vote. I realise that this may skew the results, and I trust that everyone else will also take this into consideration.
 

GrimsbyPacer

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2014
Messages
1,803
Location
Humberside
They go after the junior doctors, then the disabled, then you and me. I wonder who they won't go after.
I'd guess at London Bankers, International Corporate Giants which may buy UK assets, Etonian style schools, The Royal Family, etc.


Someone else asked for reasons for being against the strike, what about the fact if all these doctors go on strike standards may fall and in the health profession is potentially very serious.
Although the doctors have little choice with contracts being imposed without their say, I think that sort of thing ought to be illegal, otherwise contracts can be changed to suit the employer's will at every turn.

I support the strike.
 

meridian2

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2013
Messages
1,186
We saw the mess the Tories made with hospital cleaning back in the 80s, and we're pretty much seeing the same thing here. Clueless, detached from reality ministers who want to privatise the NHS by forcing every junior doctor to work to contracts which essentially would mean they become private and we, as patients and taxpayers, have to pay more. That would create a brain drain of the brightest and best junior doctors forcing to accept a contract that is totally impractical.

So I firmly support the strike.
 

Steveman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
405
I don't support either the doctors or teachers and don't see why I have to justify my opinion simply to then be abused.
 
Last edited:

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,299
Location
Leeds
I wholeheartedly support the doctors strike.

Having had a long standing, chronic illness for 22 years I have never had an instance where the NHS has failed me at weekends. In fact, the only times the NHS has failed me have been when I've required further testing as an inpatient, but there is no-one around to operate the machinery. The issue isn't that of doctors, it's in having enough diagnostic staff to support the doctors who do work throughout the week. But it surprises me that Jeremy ha chosen to keep that to himself...

As a teacher, I wish we had the backbone to stand up for our pay and conditions as the junior doctors are doing. The implementation of the new curriculum and then the testing has been completely shambolic. Nicky Morgan pleaded with NASWUT last week to calm the storm of negative press, difficult when the government and the exam boards, who are now dripping money, are making resources available less than six weeks before testing.

I support the doctors, I support the teachers. Anyone who is being impacted by this government has my support.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,185
Location
Oxford
I don't support either the doctors or teachers and don't see why I have to justify my opinion simply to then be abused.

Poor you. It must be difficult to deal with the consequences of making your opinion known. i.e. people disagreeing with you.

For the record, I support the doctors. The idea that public spending needs to be slashed in absolutely vital areas of our economy is complete madness. The government is trying to push its luck in seeing how far it can screw over those who work some of the hardest hours, and it's appalling.
 
Last edited:

backontrack

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
6,031
Location
The UK
Do you realise that there will be a number of forum members who will neither make a posting nor vote on this poll which names them for fear of any subsequent posting of unpleasant postings that will follow that could lead to acrimonious repercussions that will then see intervention by the forum moderators.

No one needs to vote if they don't want to, just as no on e needs to post comments on the thread. I hope that we can have a mature discussion with respect being shown towards anyone who might happen to have different views. Those views can be challenged, but there is no justification in getting personal.

Who was getting personal? Certainly not I, and I can see no 'personal' posts on this thread.

I didn't say that everyone had to vote, I just commented that it would be interesting to hear from both sides on this issue. I never intended to create anything but a mature discussion.

Once again, you need not vote, but you should not feel ashamed of your views, too. Whether you choose to vote or not, the idea that anonymity changes anything is frankly absurd. I agree that I'd hope that we wouldn't have any nasty messages or anything; you have as much right to express your views here as I have. But whether or not you vote comes down to personal discretion, and not the fact that people can 'see' your name. I respect your decision not to vote; the ability to abstain is an important freedom. I just don't quite agree with your reason not to - again, as Voltaire said*, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".*

Be proud of your views, and don't let anyone else change them. Your values are the one thing nobody can take away from you.

*Voltaire never actually did say that; it's in fact attributed to his biographer Evelyn Beatrice Hall, who used it to summarise his beliefs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't support either the doctors or teachers and don't see why I have to justify my opinion simply to then be abused.

You don't. Everyone has a right to not be abused, but all I was saying is that it would be good to hear some views from both sides. Whether or not you do give views is at your own discretion, so you should feel able to do so, but also have the right not to.
 
Last edited:

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
I don't support either the doctors or teachers and don't see why I have to justify my opinion simply to then be abused.

Some people would be genuinely interested in your position on this, there are two sides to every story and both are equally relevant.

Who has abused you?
 
Last edited:

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,268
Location
Llanelli
I didn't say that anyone had been personal, I was merely expressing the hope that nobody would.
 

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
Once again, you need not vote, but you should feel ashamed of your views, too. Whether you choose to vote or not, the idea that anonymity changes anything is frankly absurd. I agree that I'd hope that we wouldn't have any nasty messages or anything; you have as much right to express your views here as I have. But whether or not you vote comes down to personal discretion, and not the fact that people can 'see' your name. I respect your decision not to vote; the ability to abstain is an important freedom. I just don't quite agree with your reason not to - again, as Voltaire said*, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".*

Be proud of your views, and don't let anyone else change them. Your values are the one thing nobody can take away from you.

Hang on minute, in the first paragraph you're telling us that we should be ashamed of our views and then in the second paragraph you're telling us to be proud of our views. So which one is it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Once again, you need not vote, but you should feel ashamed of your views, too. Whether you choose to vote or not, the idea that anonymity changes anything is frankly absurd.

In that case why do you think we have anonymity at the General Election, or for that matter the local elections? Do you think that you should be able to find out how people voted in those? In principle what is the difference between those and your poll?
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
7,248
Location
UK
How far are people willing to support the strike. Are you willing to keep that support if Emergency care was removed ?
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,299
Location
Leeds
How far are people willing to support the strike. Are you willing to keep that support if Emergency care was removed ?

I'm sure the consultants supporting the juniors are more than equipped and prepared with the appropriate knowledge and skills to ensure that emergency care doesn't suffer greatly.

The junior doctors have gone on strike previously with the intent of ensuring that those in desperate need of care will be under the watchful eye of juniors/consultants. This made little impact, so my support stays with them. If it's gotten to the level where even the DoH are warning that single mothers, women and those on maternity care will suffer 'but so what if we achieve our aim' and nothing has been done, drastic action will have to be taken and will have to be escalated as the unions see fit.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
27,377
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Poor you. It must be difficult to deal with the consequences of making your opinion known. i.e. people disagreeing with you.

Whilst that comment above was made in answer to another forum member, I think it is time that I made my position clear.

Outright politically motivated threads such as this one that have been made from one very strong held point of view are not set up to have a reasoned debate on this particular website from what I have seen in the almost five years that I have been a member of this website. In past times, I have sought to put forward my own personal views on certain matters, but it was not just "people disagreeing with you", it was the vitriolic way that some of the responding postings were both made and phrased. This is just an internet forum, not the House of Commons where it seems that "anything goes".

Therefore, again I will state my objection about the "name and shame" list of those against the thread proposal being published for all to see as being one that the NKVD would have thought an excellent method of finding out who were dissenters from "the party line".
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,096
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Some people would be genuinely interested in your position on this, there are two sides to every story and both are equally relevant.

Who has abused you?

Indeed! I would like to hear someone from the pro hunt camp. I doubt i would agree but i would like to hear their views

Whilst that comment above was made in answer to another forum member, I think it is time that I made my position clear.

Outright politically motivated threads such as this one that have been made from one very strong held point of view are not set up to have a reasoned debate on this particular website from what I have seen in the almost five years that I have been a member of this website. In past times, I have sought to put forward my own personal views on certain matters, but it was not just "people disagreeing with you", it was the vitriolic way that some of the responding postings were both made and phrased. This is just an internet forum, not the House of Commons where it seems that "anything goes".

Therefore, again I will state my objection about the "name and shame" list of those against the thread proposal being published for all to see as being one that the NKVD would have thought an excellent method of finding out who were dissenters from "the party line".

what on earth are you on about :roll:
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,299
Location
Leeds
If you do not follow the reasoning behind the most clearly phrased statements that I made in my posting, then this is no fault of mine.

I'm inclined to agree that such threads in the past have very quickly ignited into flame wars where one camp will consistently berate and throw attitude at someone who disagrees with them. Don't know if that would still happen now, but I can see why someone wouldn't want to engage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top