Do you support the junior doctors' strike?

[DarloRich]

If you do not follow the reasoning behind the most clearly phrased statements that I made in my posting, then this is no fault of mine.

insert sigh icon. For the avoidance of doubt your views are quite clear. You don't wish to express an opinion because you might be challenged in a way you don't like. Fine. There are amoeba on Rigil 7 with no knowledge of language that got the meaning of the post. :roll:

I wont even pass comment on the NVKD and party line stuff. It is silly

As I say I doubt I would agree with your views on this subject, coming as I do from a very different environment and stage of life to you, but I WOULD like to hear them!

Seems very clear to me.

Do you have a view to express on this matter or will you simply state a simplistic opinion that differs from the majority in the hope of starting an online fire?

 

[Spamcan81]

The government should be handling this better but I do not support a strike that results in emergency cover being withdrawn. I wasn't aware that the Hippocratic Oath could be ignored by those who swear it.

 

[ComUtoR]

I wasn't aware that the Hippocratic Oath could be ignored by those who swear it.

In what way ?

 

[DarloRich]

In what way ?

I assume that the suggestion is that the principle that doctors should first do no harm may be broken. However that principle doesn't actually appear in the Hippocratic oath. Nor is there any direct punishment for breaking the oath.

Do the doctors actually swear an oath?

 

[backontrack]

Hang on minute, in the first paragraph you're telling us that we should be ashamed of our views and then in the second paragraph you're telling us to be proud of our views. So which one is it?

Oops, typo. I'll correct it.

You should not be ashamed of your views.

 

[ComUtoR]

I assume that the suggestion is that the principle that doctors should first do no harm may be broken.

I read an underlying suggestion by the way it was posted.

If we do take the principle of first do no harm then many Jr Doc's are overworked so actually turning up may cause harm to the patient.

I don't think first do no harm applies here anyway. Surely you limit of responsibility to the patients or potential patients is that you are actually present. Making a choice not to go to work that day is different from choosing to apply or remove treatment.

 

[Spamcan81]

In what way ?

I would think that was obvious. Withdrawing emergency cover would seem to be a clear breach of the oath.

 

[Polarbear]

The junior doctors certainly have my support. Whilst I can, to a degree, understand why the general public would want to see a "7 day" NHS, the way the current government is going about doing this is little short of dishonest!

Unfortunately at the last election, the Conservatives won, based on some very vague statements of how they would achieve their ambition to pay down the defecit, and uphold manefesto promises such as a "7 day" NHS. This has allowed the government to be somewhat unaccountable when challenged on matters such as the cost of providing such a service.

In reality, what the government is attempting to do is get more work done by public sector workers, but for the same (or lower) cost. To me, that's the essence of the current dispute with the junior doctors as they will end up having to work longer hours than at present, to maintain their current level of pay, given that Saturday's are to be paid (for the most part) at plain rate.

This sort of thing is being repeated across the public sector, with contracts being arbitrarily changed, terms & conditions being altered and everything being looked at with a view to cutting back any perceived "advantage" public sector workers may be perceived as having by "the bloke at the pub" or your typical tabloid newspaper reader.

As regards the junior doctors dispute, the main difference is that there is a degree of public support, which makes the "smoke & mirrors" approach of the government more difficult & more open to scrutiny. Unfortunately, the government seem to be of the opinion that if you continually repeat the same mis-information & unsubstantiated statistics, that the public will eventually "come on board" with the government side.

For the record, I'm not a junior doctor & I never could do what they do. I do however work in the public sector, and have seen at first hand some of the things that are being inflicted on hard working & loyal employees purely for the sake of government expediency.

 

[Adamhollie]

Yes I support the junior doctors100%
These guys do amazing work for what is a poor salary for the hours worked
The ones I have met work way over thier hours without any overtime pay as doctors don't get overtime pay
They work tirelessly for the good of all in they care
Keep up the good work!!!!

 

[455driver]

A question for those who do not support the junior doctors-

Would you be happy if you took a job and signed a contract stating X and Y, a few years later you are told that your contract is being changed so you will have to work more hours for less money and if you don't like it there is the door!

That is effectively what this dispute is about.

 

[backontrack]

Does no-one want to help the anti-strikes side? We might at least get some mature and intelligent discussion.

 

[ComUtoR]

I would think that was obvious. Withdrawing emergency cover would seem to be a clear breach of the oath.

Again, in what way ? I think you misunderstand the Oath. If a Dr chose not to go to work that day I don't see how that would breach their Oaths. Tired, overworked Doctors put lives at risk by going to work.

 

[me123]

I wasn't aware that the Hippocratic Oath could be ignored by those who swear it.

As a bit of background, the oath is not legally binding.

The Hippocratic Oath reads:

I swear by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius the surgeon, likewise Hygeia and Panacea, and call all the gods and goddesses to witness, that I will observe and keep this underwritten oath, to the utmost of my power and judgment.

I will reverence my master who taught me the art. Equally with my parents, will I allow him things necessary for his support, and will consider his sons as brothers. I will teach them my art without reward or agreement; and I will impart all my acquirement, instructions, and whatever I know, to my master's children, as to my own; and likewise to all my pupils, who shall bind and tie themselves by a professional oath, but to none else.

With regard to healing the sick, I will devise and order for them the best diet, according to my judgment and means; and I will take care that they suffer no hurt or damage.

Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

Further, I will comport myself and use my knowledge in a godly manner.

I will not cut for the stone, but will commit that affair entirely to the surgeons.

Whatsoever house I may enter, my visit shall be for the convenience and advantage of the patient; and I will willingly refrain from doing any injury or wrong from falsehood, and (in an especial manner) from acts of an amorous nature, whatever may be the rank of those who it may be my duty to cure, whether mistress or servant, bond or free.

Whatever, in the course of my practice, I may see or hear (even when not invited), whatever I may happen to obtain knowledge of, if it be not proper to repeat it, I will keep sacred and secret within my own breast.

If I faithfully observe this oath, may I thrive and prosper in my fortune and profession, and live in the estimation of posterity; or on breach thereof, may the reverse be my fate![5]

(Obtained from Wikipedia)

Of note, many doctors who perform abortions routinely break this oath.

Also of note, the phrase "first do no harm" does not appear in the oath, although there are sections of the oath in which we swear not to harm patients (or their unborn children).

The oath is not legally binding. Most medical schools require their doctors to take some form of oath. My university chose not to make us recite this oath, rather we recited a revised oath that was more relevant to modern medicine in the hope that it would have more meaning. I cannot recall the exact wording of this at this time (and I need my bed!), but I'm sure it will have words to the same extent. We are not held to the standards of the Hippocratic, or indeed any other, oath. But we are held to the standards of our governing body, the General Medical Council, as outlined in Good Medical Practice.

A withdrawal of service is not equal to harming a patient for a philosophical/moral/legal perspective. There is nothing in the oath above that requires doctors to provide their services (otherwise doctors could not retire/quit!). Furthermore, there is no such obligation in Good Medical Practice. A strike can easily be conducted whilst remaining true to the principles outlined in this document.

There is no evidence that junior doctor's strikes increase morbidity or mortality, at least when emergency care is covered as has been the case until now. (Source 1[/URL, [URL="http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h6231"]Source 2]). However, I am unaware of any data that exist for a full walkout.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does no-one want to help the anti-strikes side? We might at least get some mature and intelligent discussion.

I agree. I am, of course, pleased to see support for my colleagues in England. However, I would like to hear from those who disagree and we can have a proper debate. You won't be "abused" (at least not by me), but having opposing views aired in this forum will facilitate discussion.

 

[bb21]

Do you realise that there will be a number of forum members who will neither make a posting nor vote on this poll which names them for fear of any subsequent posting of unpleasant postings that will follow that could lead to acrimonious repercussions that will then see intervention by the forum moderators.

I don't think a public poll is the equivalent of "naming and shaming" as to be fair, one can probably work out how most people voted by their posts. The poll cannot help very much in hiding one's viewpoint should he/she be a forum regular.

That said, I see nothing to be gained by having a public poll, so have edited it to be anonymous. I don't think anyone intended for a public poll to be used as a tool for picking enemies, but it is a bit pointless having a poll a section of the population feels uneasy to participate in, which has become clearer through the last few posts, and to a certain extent, I can understand.

 

[meridian2]

A question for those who do not support the junior doctors-

Would you be happy if you took a job and signed a contract stating X and Y, a few years later you are told that your contract is being changed so you will have to work more hours for less money and if you don't like it there is the door!

That is effectively what this dispute is about.

And the new contract is about us, patients and taxpayers, having to pay more for our healthcare by forcing to go private, simply because the doctors are being forced to sign a wholly impractical contract.
The doctors get paid less, we have to pay more (especially so for the elderly and disabled), and the Tories are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[EM2]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...es-single-mothers_uk_56fe6469e4b0884065f0ac0a

Equality analysis published by the government on the new contract’s effects on workers said:

“Any indirect adverse effect on women is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Whilst this may disadvantage lone parents (who are disproportionately female) due to the increased cost of paid childcare in the evenings and weekend, in some cases this may actually benefit other women, for example where individuals have partners, it may 26 be easier to make informal, unpaid childcare arrangements in the evenings and weekends than it is during the week due to the increased availability of partners and wider family networks at weekends and in the evenings.”

60% of junior doctors are women...

 

[theblackwatch]

Please can members remember what the subject of this thread is, I think it may be a first when someone has made several posts in a thread then said they have made no comments about the subject! I have removed all the offending posts.

 

[TheKnightWho]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...es-single-mothers_uk_56fe6469e4b0884065f0ac0a

Equality analysis published by the government on the new contract’s effects on workers said:



60% of junior doctors are women...

That's a complete misinterpretation of "proportionate means". Otherwise absolutely any indirect discrimination (where a policy that applies equally to everyone disproportionately affects certain groups - in this case women) could be justified by arguing like this. Thankfully it's being legally challenged on those grounds, since indirect discrimination is illegal under the Act.

It seems to be something that a lot of organisations (and people) consider "fair" when it suits them, even though it's not something that is when we think about it for a second. (A flat rate of tax, for example, is another indirectly discriminatory policy, since it disproportionately affects those with less money. Most people understand that this is why we have various rates of tax for different incomes.)

 

[radamfi]

In which countries do all the following apply?

1. doctors happy with their pay
2. doctors happy with the hours that they work
3. taxpayers happy with the amount they pay for healthcare through taxes
4. patients happy with the healthcare they get
5. patients happy with the fees they pay for healthcare

 

[Bayum]

In which countries do all the following apply?

1. doctors happy with their pay
2. doctors happy with the hours that they work
3. taxpayers happy with the amount they pay for healthcare through taxes
4. patients happy with the healthcare they get
5. patients happy with the fees they pay for healthcare

I'd be thinking Australiasia: partiuclarly Australia and Japan.

 

[backontrack]

I'd be thinking Australiasia: partiuclarly Australia and Japan.

Japan isn't in Australasia.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Thought I'd share this post I made in the General Strike thread on an opinion poll on the junior doctors strike.

Seems junior doctors still have the support of the majority of the public

Junior Doctors are (X) to go out on strike:
Right: 51% (-3)
Wrong: 31% (+2)
(via YouGov / 29 - 30 Mar)

On Junior Doctors taking partial strike action:
Support: 59%
Oppose: 23%
(via YouGov / 29 - 30 Mar)

On Junior Doctors taking full strike action:
Support: 44%
Oppose: 37%
(via YouGov / 29 - 30 Mar)

On who is most to blame for the dispute leading to strike action:
The Govt: 48%
The BMA: 9%
Both equally: 29%
(via YouGov / 29 - 30 Mar)

From Britain Elects on Twitter

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I voted "No"

My reasons for doing so are my own, but there you go

 

[AntoniC]

I fully support the Doctors strike because they are trying to stand up for themselves against a Government that is determined to change their terms and conditions for the worst ( to try and save money), I fear that they wont win but if they dont at least they have fought and lost.

I write this as a Civil Servant of 28 years standing.

My union (The PCS) fought and won in Court that changes to the terms & conditions of the Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme were unlawful - so the Govt changed the law to enact them anyway.

Since 2010 I have averaged payrises of approx 0.7% per year (which have all been imposed) so now I earn approx £20100 p.a.

Good luck to the Doctors !

 

[Amberley54]

I voted "No"

My reasons for doing so are my own, but there you go

Don't be shy.


Share your reason(s) with us.

 

[swj99]

They go after the junior doctors, then the disabled, then you and me. I wonder who they won't go after.

Good question. The answer, is nobody. Unless you are the same as them, you are fair game. If you dressed the same, talked the same, went to the same clubs and restaurants, you could be with them, but you'd never be 'of' them. Even if you voted for them and agreed with some of their policies, you'd never belong. Not really. You'd never be part of that elite. You've only got to look at the way they treat people close to them, to see there's no low they won't stoop to in their quest for money and power. They might let you think you'd arrived, but you'd be brushed off like mud on someone's shoes the minute it suited them.

Ever wondered why politicians rarely give a straight answer ? Watch them when they're asked a question. What they are taught to do, if they either don't know the answer, or don't want to tell you, is to just talk about anything at all. So if you asked, "What about austerity ?" a politician might answer with, "I believe we have a huge social task ahead of us, and we are in a position to do an enormous amount of good for this country."
Taken to an extreme, they might as well have said, "I think car batteries should be painted blue, because it's a much nicer colour !" for all the sense their answers make most of the time anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

The poll on this thread is almost the same as a poll 80/20 in favour of the doctors in the press today. I think it was an icm poll

 

[Bayum]

Last night at about 2100, I visited a ward to pick up my sisters nursing placement sign off sheets.

A&E was full with doctors accompanying ambulance staff from the ambulance bays and there were other doctors working around more patients.

Upstairs on her ex-ward, was horrid. There were patients quite literally, queueing in trollies lining the corridor to the nurses station. Yet even in these squalid conditions there were doctors ordering secondary tests and attempting to find bed spaces in an already bulging hospital.

The NHS is bursting because it has suffered year after year, cut after cut. The government will give you any old story about how much money is put into the NHS, how much is ring fenced and the like - ask them what they're going to do to recruit new doctors, nurses and diagnostic staff and they don't know. Ask them what their plans are to ensure patients leaving A&E to be admitted to wards so they're not stuck in corridors, you'll get no reply.

This government and successive previous governments have been prepared to cut left, right and centre. Soon the NHS will be seen as something that can't be helped by government and will be seen as needing private support. Hunt couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel, let alone a historic organisation. DoH's own workers counted far fewer nurses and doctors than they expected - what's Hunt's answer? Cut the bursaries for nurses and impose contracts on doctors. Fabulous.

You couldn't make this crap up.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Don't be shy.


Share your reason(s) with us.

Alright, here we go...

Over the last few years, I've had a few medical problems which has meant long times overnight. On a number of these occasions, I have overheard some of the junior Doctors saying they could not be bothered to order tests and to leave it for the day shift - terrible behavior I have drawn attention to twice.

The other thing that really ticks me off about this whole thing is that I was rushed in last week and, whilst waiting to be seen, I heard three junior Doctors gleefully talk about how they'd voted for the strike action but wouldn't turn out for the protests and would treat the strike as a holiday!

Sorry to say that, under those circumstances, I can't support them

 

[backontrack]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But does that really affect the majority of junior doctors? Or is that just at Hull Royal Infirmary/Castle Hill Hospital?