Do you think that Transpennine Express Manchester Airport-Scotland services should run via Chat Moss and Wigan NW or via Bolton and Chorley

[Hey 3]

I personally think TPE should run via Chat Moss and Wigan NW for 2 reasons:
1. Further 125 mph running (further south from Euxton Jn to Parkside Jn would cover for the relatively slow speeds over Chat Moss
2. Wigan North Western is more of an interchange with services to London, Liverpool, Blackpool, Bolton (or you can get there from both Wigan NW and Wallgate), Manchester of course (from both Wigan NW and Wallgate), Alderley Edge (from Wigan Wallgate), Atherton (again use Wigan Wallgate), Southport and Kirkby (Wigan Wallgate)

And also Bolton does not have direct trains to Kirkby, Liverpool, Atherton and London and it is more of a standalone station than Wigan NW, sure it has trains to Blackburn and Clitheroe, but people would rather change at Preston and Preston also has connections to Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden and Rochdale (change at Burnley or Blackburn) and Leeds, York and Bradford Interchange
And I forgot to mention Wigan NW also has services to St Helens.

 

[tbtc]

Via Bolton.

It means a half hourly semi-fast Lancaster - Preston - Bolton - Manchester service (when combined with the Barrow/ Windermere services), on top of the half hourly Blackpool - Preston - Bolton - Manchester service (that would pick up additional intermediate stops) - that seems more of a priority to me than worrying about where the Alderley Edge passengers would change for Scottish services (probably Crewe TBQH).

Wigan North Western already has two Scottish services per hour (the "fast" Euston and the "via Wolverhampton" Euston), so a third one doesn't add much to the mix - passengers from Liverpool etc have sufficient opportunities to change.

Put it this way - if the Scottish services run via Wigan rather than Bolton then what fills the gaps on the Manchester - Bolton - Preston line? Does that get cut? Or do you need an additional service (terminating at Preston) to fill the gaps anyway?

There's certainly a good argument for improving the Bolton - Wigan frequencies, given how good Wigan is for long distance connections - I'd support that (given that, in your option, Wigan would have three trains per hour to Scotland but only two trains per hour to Bolton - I think that demand for a Bolton service would outstrip demand from Wigan to Scotland) - but I don't see why Bolton needs to lose out (and have it's one long distance service taken away from it).

 

[Hardcastle]

Via Bolton the traditional route most direct & technically fastest.

 

[The Planner]

125mph? Sure?

 

[Neptune]

Via Bolton for obvious reasons.

Wigan is already well connected to Scotland twice an hour so an additional service makes marginal difference.

Also the railways aren’t all about speed. Connectivity is equally important wherever this is practical and possible.

Finally I don’t think 397’s are permitted to do 125mph on the WCML unless somebody knows something I don’t.

 

[cle]

Having two fast and two slow via Bolton seems to make sense. I would have those slows terminate at Preston though. And the fasts are one Scotland, one Cumbria.

Wigan should take on the 2tph Blackpool services instead. It may lead to overserving of that pair, given the Liverpool-Blackpool route too, but it's the trunk. Better for pathing and platforming at Preston vs the Bolton route.

If the Liverpool-Scotland increased in future towards hourly, that benefits Wigan too. So I think it is well-covered.

 

[Bigman]

Shouldn’t run at all IMHO. Glasgow and Edinburgh have their own airports, so why the need to get to Manny? Same applies to Newcastle and Leeds. Cut down on all these unnecessary long distance services going through the Castlefield core, which means you can better service the airport with more local services. Local airports for local people.

 

[Halish Railway]

Shouldn’t run at all IMHO. Glasgow and Edinburgh have their own airports, so why the need to get to Manny? Same applies to Newcastle and Leeds. Cut down on all these unnecessary long distance services going through the Castlefield core, which means you can better service the airport with more local services. Local airports for local people.

It does provide Cumbria and Lancashire with a direct airport service. Really the only reason why it goes through the Castlefield corridor and through to the Airport is to find somewhere to terminate as at its core, the TPE WCML service is an intercity train, not an airport express.

I don’t understand why you believe that the entire service is unnecessary and shouldn’t run at all given that the service justifies running a five-carriage train.

 

[Bigman]

I can understand that i needs to serve the North West destinations. Can't understand why it has to go to Scotland. Anyway, just ignore me, I am having a bad work day.

 

[PTR 444]

I’m surprised nobody has yet mentioned the elephant in the room which is Golborne. Presumably if you have a Manchester - Preston service running that way in the future, chances are it will be required to stop at the proposed new station there. I doubt anyone would want the main intercity Manchester - Scotland service being slowed down by calling at another shack in Lancashire.

 

[Ianno87]

I can understand that i needs to serve the North West destinations. Can't understand why it has to go to Scotland. Anyway, just ignore me, I am having a bad work day.

Because Manchester (City centre) to Glasgow and Edinburgh is a market worth serving directly, as demonstrated by the growth in passenger ever since it has grown to become an hourly service all day (As opposed to the couple-of-times-per-day BR service of the early 1990s)

 

[Halish Railway]

I can understand that i needs to serve the North West destinations. Can't understand why it has to go to Scotland. Anyway, just ignore me, I am having a bad work day.

There’re plenty of people with reasons to go from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester (even excluding the airport). Whenever I’ve left Edinburgh on one of these services they’ve been very busy.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Shouldn’t run at all IMHO. Glasgow and Edinburgh have their own airports, so why the need to get to Manny?

As noted by Ianno87, the main market is Glasgow and Edinburgh to Manchester, the Airport traffic is a small percentage although it comes not only from Scotland but also stops in the North West (and from Lancaster and a lesser extent Preston it tends to be much faster than on a Northern train with more stops).

I’m surprised nobody has yet mentioned the elephant in the room which is Golborne. Presumably if you have a Manchester - Preston service running that way in the future, chances are it will be required to stop at the proposed new station there. I doubt anyone would want the main intercity Manchester - Scotland service being slowed down by calling at another shack in Lancashire.

The other Golbourne elephant is the severe speed restriction Parkside Jn to Golborne Jn, from memory is it 15mph (?) for probably close to a mile in total. A green after approach control at Parkside blocks the up WCML for probably at least four minutes. Painfully slow and consumes more WCML capacity than taking Euxton Jn at 50/60.

 

[Hey 3]

There’re plenty of people with reasons to go from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester (even excluding the airport). Whenever I’ve left Edinburgh on one of these services they’ve been very busy.

Yes there is, say for leisure/holiday but also say someone is from Manchester and is going to Edinburgh University, they can just take the train and also for business(when things get back to normal and we aren't in the world of zoom

As noted by Ianno87, the main market is Glasgow and Edinburgh to Manchester, the Airport traffic is a small percentage although it comes not only from Scotland but also stops in the North West (and from Lancaster and a lesser extent Preston it tends to be much faster than on a Northern train with more stops).

The other Golbourne elephant is the severe speed restriction Parkside Jn to Golborne Jn, from memory is it 15mph (?) for probably close to a mile in total. A green after approach control at Parkside blocks the up WCML for probably at least four minutes. Painfully slow and consumes more WCML capacity than taking Euxton Jn at 50/60.

You could straighten the curve at Parkside, and maybe realign Golborne Jn to Parkside Jn, but that could be expensive

 

[Bigman]

There’re plenty of people with reasons to go from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester (even excluding the airport). Whenever I’ve left Edinburgh on one of these services they’ve been very busy.

Fair enough. Totally accept that. There is always going to be demand for travel between major cities. Does the service need to run through to the airport though is I suppose what I should have asked in the first place?

 

[Neptune]

Operationally it makes sense. It would have to terminate in P13 at Piccadilly otherwise which would mean standing time of 5 minutes or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does provide Cumbria and Lancashire with a direct airport service.

It does, but there are other services that also do that, and you can also change at various stations onto those and other services.

If it stopped serving the Airport, in England, only Penrith and Carlisle would lose their whole direct Manchester Airport service. Lockerbie/Glasgow/Haymarket/Edinburgh would too, but they wouldn't be going to Manchester Airport anyway.

Operationally it makes sense. It would have to terminate in P13 at Piccadilly otherwise which would mean standing time of 5 minutes or so.

Yes. It's a terminus of convenience. If post-HS2 joining it to a London service makes sense, this is a gain, not a loss, and really just puts things closer back to where they used to be when it was joined to an XC service.

 

[Bigman]

Operationally it makes sense. It would have to terminate in P13 at Piccadilly otherwise which would mean standing time of 5 minutes or so.

Could it operate to Victoria though? I will however admit defeat on this, because if the service acts as the main service to the airport from the likes of Carlisle and Lancaster, then yes it makes sense to operate it through, even it is does come from North of the border. I could however never understand why this was never part of the WMCL franchise, but that is a discussion for an other day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it operate to Victoria though?

It would be feasible to do that, yes.

I will however admit defeat on this, because if the service acts as the main service to the airport from the likes of Carlisle and Lancaster, then yes it makes sense to operate it through, even it is does come from North of the border. I could however never understand why this was never part of the WMCL franchise, but that is a discussion for an other day.

Apparently on an earlier thread about it it was pointed out that actually it was for a very short period of time between ceasing to be part of XC and the TPE takeover.

 

[Neptune]

Could it operate to Victoria though? I will however admit defeat on this, because if the service acts as the main service to the airport from the likes of Carlisle and Lancaster, then yes it makes sense to operate it through, even it is does come from North of the border. I could however never understand why this was never part of the WMCL franchise, but that is a discussion for an other day.

Yes Victoria would be better but again there are only 4 busy through platforms to terminate in and with layover time and the lack of decent siding space to stable in Victoria is very restrictive so again the Airport is a better option.

 

[Ianno87]

Could it operate to Victoria though? I will however admit defeat on this, because if the service acts as the main service to the airport from the likes of Carlisle and Lancaster, then yes it makes sense to operate it through, even it is does come from North of the border. I could however never understand why this was never part of the WMCL franchise, but that is a discussion for an other day.

How many times do I have to explain that there is not capacity for this service at Victoria...

 

[Bigman]

Yes Victoria would be better but again there are only 4 busy through platforms to terminate in and with layover time and the lack of decent siding space to stable in Victoria is very restrictive so again the Airport is a better option.

If only they hadn't shut the other through platforms.

 

[Hey 3]

If only they hadn't shut the other through platforms.

Yes, and if they had not shut Manchester Exchange(for the west facing bays).
However, Manchester Victoria to Bromley St Jn wiring will allow electric trains to crossover and enter another through platform without falling off the wires and not blocking a through platform

 

[Cheshire Scot]

You could straighten the curve at Parkside, and maybe realign Golborne Jn to Parkside Jn, but that could be expensive

To get any sort of decent speed would require a totally new alignment moving Parkside Jn to the east of the current location and Golborne Jn a bit further to the north (beyond where the two track WCML becomes 4 track) with quite significant (mainly agricultural) land take and finding a route through the village of Lowton.

For those unfamiliar with the Parkside Curve have a look on Google Maps

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes, and if they had not shut Manchester Exchange(for the west facing bays).
However, Manchester Victoria to Bromley St Jn wiring will allow electric trains to crossover and enter another through platform without falling off the wires and not blocking a through platform

Or, alternatively, if they had retained part of the Cheetham Hill line for use of sidings, and also allow an hour or so turnround times without blocking platforms at Victoria.....

 

[Elecman]

Wire Lostock Jct to Wigan and run them that was serving both Bolton and Wigan

 

[Hey 3]

Wire Lostock Jct to Wigan and run them that was serving both Bolton and Wigan

That electrification was mothballed in 2017 I think, that line was "Graylinged"
And plus the mega slow speed of Wigan Stn Jn isnt ideal(and probably even slower that Golborne Jn to Parkside Jn) and if you want to serve Wigan NW, just run via Chat Moss, Parkside and Golborne

 

[cle]

Wire Lostock Jct to Wigan and run them that was serving both Bolton and Wigan

I wonder how the three journey times would compare - say, Oxford Road to Preston via each route. Only calling at Wigan and/or Bolton.

 

[Elecman]

That electrification was mothballed in 2017 I think, that line was "Graylinged"
And plus the mega slow speed of Wigan Stn Jn isnt ideal(and probably even slower that Golborne Jn to Parkside Jn) and if you want to serve Wigan NW, just run via Chat Moss, Parkside and Golborne

How does the restriction at Wigan Station Junction compare with the severe restriction between Parkside and Golborne junctions? In speed and distance?

 

[Hey 3]

How does the restriction at Wigan Station Junction compare with the severe restriction between Parkside and Golborne junctions? In speed and distance?

One thing I know is that it crosses on the flat over a connection from the WCML to Wigan Wallgate and thus probably making the speed 10 mph?