Docklands Light Railway to Bromley and Euston?

[Class377/5]

From The Wharf

http://www.wharf.co.uk/2013/03/docklands-light-railway-to-bro.html

Euston would link east London with both High Speed 2 and Crossrail 2, while an extension southbound from Lewisham would give commuters from Bromley a 25 minute journey to Canary Wharf.

The DLR's head of development and planning Robert Niven said there was "a push for extending" the route from Bank to Euston after Mayor Boris Johnson announced his support for a Crossrail 2 line from Hampton Court in the south to Cheshunt in the north via Euston.

Crossrail 2 would complement HS2 - due to open in 2026 - which will have a Euston interchange.

"It's important to look at inward connections," said Mr Niven.

"It's fine getting people to the West End but without further investment - and I'm not saying DLR is the only solution - there will not be a proper link to the City and Canary Wharf

"We haven't done much more work on this because Crossrail 2 is still being discussed but we have to look at how it can be done."

A link to Bromley is also being looked into. Currently commuters face journeys involving buses and the Tube that take around an hour.

"At the moment extending the DLR to Bromley is the most credible option," said Mr Niven.

"It's still progressing in terms of what it will look like, what it will cost and the benefits.

"There is significant journey time advantages but it will come back to the affordability of the scheme."

Other much-discussed DLR extensions include routes to Eltham and Dagenham Dock.

Mr Niven said Greenwich Council, which came up with the original idea for Eltham, needed to carry out "more groundwork" before the scheme could move forward.

The Dagenham extension, meanwhile, has been talked about for years. However, they are progressing.

"We're looking at revising the plans but with a different scope focussed on how we can facilitate redevelopment of Barking Reach," said Mr Niven.

"There's land ideal for new homes in that area which needs to be unlocked.

"It's in its infancy but we are looking at whether it's feasible.

"What will make it happen is to look at what homes can be built and whether there is a cheaper alternative to the DLR."

 

[ian1944]

It seems an expensive alternative to improving rail links between Bromley N and Lewisham, if indeed there is a demand anyway.

 

[Ivo]

First I've heard of routes to Bromley and Eltham hock:

 

[Clip]

"It's fine getting people to the West End but without further investment - and I'm not saying DLR is the only solution - there will not be a proper link to the City and Canary Wharf

Bank is in the City and does have a direct link to Canary Wharf, every couple of minutes. All day.

Im still a fan of going eastwards over and above more tunneling through the city with the DLR.


ETA: I think they may be lucky to secure any funding for any tunneling extensions within 10 years or so as was reading yesterday that the Mayor would like to do the extension of the Bakerloo line into Peckham and beyond next.

 

[jopsuk]

Extending the DLR from Lewisham will be tricky- though not impossible- and will likely involve shutting the station for a while. The line is level with the A20, there's a canal to be negotiated, and a railway viaduct.

Presumably the Bromley idea would involve a route to Grove Park and then taking over the Bromley North branch? It will be tricky, even with extensive single track sections, surely?

 

[bronzeonion]

Certainly hope not!

 

[Clip]

Extending the DLR from Lewisham will be tricky- though not impossible- and will likely involve shutting the station for a while. The line is level with the A20, there's a canal to be negotiated, and a railway viaduct.

Presumably the Bromley idea would involve a route to Grove Park and then taking over the Bromley North branch? It will be tricky, even with extensive single track sections, surely?

The canal is the biggest hurdle as you say. And iirc it would be down the bromley north section. Single track working isn't too much of an issue with the dlr as its speedy but they could probably form a loop at a station like they have round by pudding mill lane too.

 

[34D]

I think they may be lucky to secure any funding for any tunneling extensions within 10 years or so as was reading yesterday that the Mayor would like to do the extension of the Bakerloo line into Peckham and beyond next.

Is there still a proposal to extend the Northern line from Kennington to Battersea?

I can see benefits to taking the DLR beyond Lewisham, but we'll have to see what happens.

What route would Bank to Euston take I wonder, and would there be a station at Kings Cross?

 

[jopsuk]

Northern Line extension is pretty much go go go now. Hopefully. Funded in part by the Battersea development.

Euston will be interesting. The turnback for the DLR at Bank lies under the Central Line, so that bit is taken care of. But from there on though there's few lines to cross, it's a busy place underground- especially with Crossrail.

Is there any scope for DLR trains ever getting longer than 3-units (86.4m)?

 

[Clip]

Is there still a proposal to extend the Northern line from Kennington to Battersea?

I can see benefits to taking the DLR beyond Lewisham, but we'll have to see what happens.

What route would Bank to Euston take I wonder, and would there be a station at Kings Cross?

The Northern line is a given now which is good, not to me as it doesnt go far enough and is only for the track, not the trains.

Going beyond Lewisham is a good thing but going east is what they should do first.

I can see the route from Bank to Euston or The Cross being too much of an effort as the DLR is really deep at Bank anyway and Poplar is too small to be a depot to facilitate extra vehicles to be berthed there, for starters. And the route to Euston would be too deep, given crossrail 2 and such.

Northern Line extension is pretty much go go go now. Hopefully. Funded in part by the Battersea development.

Euston will be interesting. The turnback for the DLR at Bank lies under the Central Line, so that bit is taken care of. But from there on though there's few lines to cross, it's a busy place underground- especially with Crossrail.

Is there any scope for DLR trains ever getting longer than 3-units (86.4m)?

From what I know, they wont get longer than a 3 car consist. It took them an age to get the 3 cars to work properly and they still have issues with them, especially sliding, so until they sort that then no joy.

East is the only way ATM.

 

[Daz28]

First I've heard of routes to Bromley and Eltham hock:

The suggested route to Eltham is to include the DLR in any new crossing at Blackwall, and then follow the A2 on stilts to Eltham.

Greenwich Council commissioned a report into the options, but I don't think it has any momentum yet.

http://853blog.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/elthamdlr001.pdf

 

[jopsuk]

Building the DLR under the Thames there would properly kill off the idea of the dangleway as a serious transport concern...

In fact, for real fun, adding a chord to allow trains to run from Eltham onto the alignment along by Excel might actually be a useful transport link, especially if the line is extended out to Dagenham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I know, they wont get longer than a 3 car consist. It took them an age to get the 3 cars to work properly and they still have issues with them, especially sliding, so until they sort that then no joy.

If they had the platform length (or potential platform length) to run longer trains, it would of course be possible for the next build (and future builds) to be longer units. This would be operationally awkward admittedly.

 

[Class377/5]

The suggested route to Eltham is to include the DLR in any new crossing at Blackwall, and then follow the A2 on stilts to Eltham.

Greenwich Council commissioned a report into the options, but I don't think it has any momentum yet.

http://853blog.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/elthamdlr001.pdf

Thanks for that. Haven't head of that extension but provides there is plenty of places the DLR can go to.

 

[theageofthetra]

As the DLR trains are a tramway type vehicle could it not be routed through Lewisham high St? And then once in Bromley down Kentish way through Bromley Common and as far as the college on reserved track? This road is wide and would replace 1000's of bus journey's.

 

[Class172]

I can't really see the point in making all the effort to extend the DLR to Euston. Is it really to much effort to change at Bank onto the Northern Line in order to get to Euston?

Personally I would much rather see the existing underground lines extended out into the SE of London, than the DLR. You could extend the Victoria Line from Brixton; Bakerloo Line from Elephant & Castle; even reusing the old Jubilee Line spur from Charing Cross...

 

[telstarbox]

As the DLR trains are a tramway type vehicle could it not be routed through Lewisham high St? And then once in Bromley down Kentish way through Bromley Common and as far as the college on reserved track? This road is wide and would replace 1000's of bus journey's.

The DLR trains take electricity from ground-level contact rails, not overhead wires, so the line has to be segregated from everything else for safety.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
If you look at the various maps (eg: the excellent Carto.Metro map it seems to show that the overrun / reversing tunnel at Bank heads northwestwards towards Moorgate.

For an extension westards this could be used along with the old Moorgate - Farringdon allignment. This would need only about 1/2 mile of new tunnel to link Moorgate & Bank. There would need to be a tight turn at Moorgate and probably a large incline but the DLR seems able to cope with these.
There could then be a station at Barbican and the DLR station at Farringdon could easily go on the existing allignment and use the virtually disused underground sidings just to the east of the current station.

A DLR link to Farringdon could be amazingly handy I'd guess?
I can't see any fundamental reasons why this couldn't happen (business case aside!) - have I missed something obvious?

Cheers,
Jason

 

[jopsuk]

The DLR trains take electricity from ground-level contact rails, not overhead wires, so the line has to be segregated from everything else for safety.

They can be fitted with pantographs. Well, the original stock could- one unit was fitted for a trial in Manchester, and the whole ex-fleet now operates on OHL elsewhere.

Assuming there's enough clearance in the tunnels, adding a pantograph is probably physically doable with the current stock. Doesn't even need dual voltage equipment

 

[Ivo]

Hi,
If you look at the various maps (eg: the excellent Carto.Metro map it seems to show that the overrun / reversing tunnel at Bank heads northwestwards towards Moorgate.

For an extension westards this could be used along with the old Moorgate - Farringdon allignment. This would need only about 1/2 mile of new tunnel to link Moorgate & Bank. There would need to be a tight turn at Moorgate and probably a large incline but the DLR seems able to cope with these.
There could then be a station at Barbican and the DLR station at Farringdon could easily go on the existing allignment and use the virtually disused underground sidings just to the east of the current station.

A DLR link to Farringdon could be amazingly handy I'd guess?
I can't see any fundamental reasons why this couldn't happen (business case aside!) - have I missed something obvious?

Cheers,
Jason

There was a plan previously to extend the line through Bank to pierce the central area more effectively. I believe the idea was for trains to call at Ludgate Circus (for City Thameslink), Aldwych and Charing Cross.

The worry is that the DLR vehicles would be too small to cope.

At the minute, my opinion is that the most sensible extension would be the route through to Dagenham Dock, although I would then send it up to (and via) Heathway and build a new c2c station there.

 

[Caertroia]

The canal is the biggest hurdle as you say.

The river Ravensbourne, to be precise, not a canal. the DLR station at Lewishsm goes under the National Rail station and aims direct for the A20 bridge over the Ravensbourne. Hard to cross without rebuilding the last few 100 yds of the DLR to raise it above the road and the river and the railway, which is on a viaduct over the A20. Cant see how they'd do it.

 

[12CSVT]

Hi,
If you look at the various maps (eg: the excellent Carto.Metro map it seems to show that the overrun / reversing tunnel at Bank heads northwestwards towards Moorgate.

For an extension westards this could be used along with the old Moorgate - Farringdon allignment. This would need only about 1/2 mile of new tunnel to link Moorgate & Bank. There would need to be a tight turn at Moorgate and probably a large incline but the DLR seems able to cope with these.
There could then be a station at Barbican and the DLR station at Farringdon could easily go on the existing allignment and use the virtually disused underground sidings just to the east of the current station.

A DLR link to Farringdon could be amazingly handy I'd guess?
I can't see any fundamental reasons why this couldn't happen (business case aside!) - have I missed something obvious?

Cheers,
Jason

And how far down would it have to go to avoid all the other Underground tunnels in that area (ie, Northern Line, Central Line, Waterloo & City, Circle Line, Great Northern Moorgate branch, FCC Thameslink route, plus the now defunct Post Office railway)? And soon there will be yet another tunnel for Crossrail.

 

[NathanPrior]

The DLR to Eltham would be hard as they'll have to stick it in the middle of the A2 and that's impossible. Although hopefully it happens to make it easier to get up London from there for me

 

[Class377/5]

As the DLR trains are a tramway type vehicle could it not be routed through Lewisham high St? And then once in Bromley down Kentish way through Bromley Common and as far as the college on reserved track? This road is wide and would replace 1000's of bus journey's.

No as they are automatic trains. They'd need to be fenced off so better to keep up in air and not take road pace.

I can't really see the point in making all the effort to extend the DLR to Euston. Is it really to much effort to change at Bank onto the Northern Line in order to get to Euston?

Personally I would much rather see the existing underground lines extended out into the SE of London, than the DLR. You could extend the Victoria Line from Brixton; Bakerloo Line from Elephant & Castle; even reusing the old Jubilee Line spur from Charing Cross...

Jubilee Line Spur is useless for DLR as its the wrong gauge for a start. Also would rob Jubilee of a good escape clause. Otherwise if you had any problems at say Westminster, you'd have to turn back north of Central London

Idea is to provide new alternatives with a direct Canary Wharf to Euston link not just replace the Northern Line. Not to mention Bank could do with the relief.

They can be fitted with pantographs. Well, the original stock could- one unit was fitted for a trial in Manchester, and the whole ex-fleet now operates on OHL elsewhere.

Assuming there's enough clearance in the tunnels, adding a pantograph is probably physically doable with the current stock. Doesn't even need dual voltage equipment

Its doable but stock wasn't designed for it so you'd need to mod the whole fleet and get new safely case for fleet and OHE running as well. Not impossible but is it worth the effort? Note as well that when on OHE the one DLR was manually driven and the stock that did it is no longer in London but manually driven in Germany (on OHLE) so not 100% sure the current stock could be modified in this way.

Also there any be clearance in tunnels but the emergency walkway might not have the clearance so larger tunnels may be required.

There was a plan previously to extend the line through Bank to pierce the central area more effectively. I believe the idea was for trains to call at Ludgate Circus (for City Thameslink), Aldwych and Charing Cross.

The worry is that the DLR vehicles would be too small to cope.

At the minute, my opinion is that the most sensible extension would be the route through to Dagenham Dock, although I would then send it up to (and via) Heathway and build a new c2c station there.

DLR vehicles in three cars have same capacity as C stock Underground train, a stock noted for being good at dealing with crowds (although in part due to more doors).

IIRC there's two extensions planned from Bank with the spilt after City Thameslink with one to Victoria via Charing Cross and other to 'Euston Cross' area.

The DLR to Eltham would be hard as they'll have to stick it in the middle of the A2 and that's impossible. Although hopefully it happens to make it easier to get up London from there for me

Not impossible, just difficult. There's already a document linked to in this thread showing how it could be done.

 

[NathanPrior]

I've found a problem with the elevations idea, where would the entrance for Charlton Road & Sun In The Sands lead to. There's no way of doing this without a ramp such as the one linking Waterloo East to Waterloo.

 

[Clip]

:roll:

The river Ravensbourne, to be precise, not a canal. .

River,canal, stream, someone left a tap on its all still the same isnt it.:roll:

I've found a problem with the elevations idea, where would the entrance for Charlton Road & Sun In The Sands lead to. There's no way of doing this without a ramp such as the one linking Waterloo East to Waterloo.

Theres nothing wrong with a raised walkway. Every DLR station is accessible from street to platform already via lifts so there is no reason for that not to continue with any extension should they build it above ground like they have done elsewhere on the network.

Assuming there's enough clearance in the tunnels, adding a pantograph is probably physically doable with the current stock. Doesn't even need dual voltage equipment

Really wouldnt be worth it to modify the fleet as it stands and not sure if there is actual room on the vehicles as they stand - head height wise - for a pantograph to ever be fitted to the current fleet.

And unless you are suggesting stringing up the whole network then of course they would have to be dual voltage vehicles or you are severly restricting what can go where. One of the great things of the DLR is the position of POD. They have hot spares in there and at BED all day so should they have a train fault one can get out of either depot without much loss in service which is why their service delivery is up to around 99% most days of the week. So unless you string it all up you are scuppering your flexibility and that drops drastically.

Oh and not to mention the cost of installing OHLE.

 

[jopsuk]

And unless you are suggesting stringing up the whole network then of course they would have to be dual voltage vehicles or you are severly restricting what can go where.

Dual supply- yes. Dual voltage? Most modern tram systems use 750DC, which is what the DLR uses on its bottom contact third rail.

 

[NathanPrior]

Theres nothing wrong with a raised walkway. Every DLR station is accessible from street to platform already via lifts so there is no reason for that not to continue with any extension should they build it above ground like they have done elsewhere on the network.

There's no way you can put an entrance at Sun In The Sands, it's a massive roundabout with no pedestrian access

 

[Clip]

Dual supply- yes. Dual voltage? Most modern tram systems use 750DC, which is what the DLR uses on its bottom contact third rail.

Apologies, yes thats what I meant.

There's no way you can put an entrance at Sun In The Sands, it's a massive roundabout with no pedestrian access

Erm I think you'll find that the roundabout is named after the pub, which is where, I am assuming, because its the more rational of thought,the entrance would be.

 

[Daz28]

There's no way you can put an entrance at Sun In The Sands, it's a massive roundabout with no pedestrian access

Have you actually been there?

There is plenty of pedestrian access, with open air walkways below the roundabout but above the A102. There is even some greenery in the middle. There are houses overlooking the roundabout, the pub itself and Delacourt Road and Langton Way alongside.

Plenty of room to build a station in the centre of the roundabout across the A102.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Based on that map (link was posted earlier), surely it would be easier to go to Bromley North?