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Does anyone know if there are concrete plans to reconnect Liverpool to XC network? No speculation!

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Djgr

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Not that long ago, somebody posted a link to the results of the Consultation that was run on the franchise renewal. I skimmed through it, and could find no mention at all of a recommendation that Liverpool be re-added to the XC network, either as part of a direct award, or of a new franchise.

The trouble now is that there is no scope for adding Liverpool trains (or trains from the rest of the North West of England, which also lost their XC services) unless it was at the detriment of the 2tph service to Manchester, which would simply not be palatable. There's a very small possibility that portion workings could be used, but these would need to be at Stafford, rather than Crewe, since virtually all Manchester XC services are routed via Stoke, not Crewe. But I can't see that being welcomed.

At least Liverpool now has a regular hourly (and soon to be half-hourly) link to Birmingham International and Coventry, which I think is useful, and hopefully from May this will become more robust with the planned longer dwell times at Birmingham New Street.

But I think that Liverpool to Reading / Bournemouth / Bristol / West of England direct services are now a thing of the past, unless the clockface pattern services on XC are abandoned completely.

Well where there's a will there's a way (see Liverpool to Glasgow directs after many many years of lobbying).
 
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Gareth

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The main issue with the Liverpool-Birmingham services is not so much that they don't run through to Bristol or the south coast*; rather, it's the slowness of the services and the type of rolling stock which, though good units, are essentially outer suburban rather than intercity or regional express. Hopefully, when LNW get the 350/4s, the route will be mostly worked by these.

The unreliability introduced by running through to London is another unwelcome development that I hope will be reversed in the near future.

*although when it comes to Liverpool vis-a-vis designated regional capitals like Manchester and Leeds: what's good for the goose is never good for the gander.
 
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Class 170101

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The wording in the consultation, (which is now cancelled so I’m unsure why it’s still online), was pretty lukewarm:

I read it as a bit of sop to “stakeholders”, and there’s no real intention of expanding, indeed there’s even a suggestion of cutting back from Bournemouth, justification being SWR run 3 tph anyway...

Of the three destinations mentioned in your post Swansea would be the easiest inn the sense that you would extend the Cardiff trains through to Swansea but as for Liverpool what service would you route there if any - The Bournemouth or the Bristol? As for Bradford maybe one or two at the extremities of the day but that would be it.
 

Johnny Lewis

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Just remember that it was the Strategic Rail Authority, not Virgin, that pulled the plug on Cross Country and Arriva Trains Wales from continuing to serve Liverpool, as well as truncating the Liverpool - Birmingham - Stansted Airport services, so that they became a glorified commuter service. This was done with deliberate intent: those responsible regarded Liverpool as a "declining city" - just about the time it was voted to be European Capital of Culture.
It's also worth pointing out that, prior to the 2008 West Coast Pendolino timetable, Virgin would have sooner increased the London to Liverpool service to 2 trains per hour ahead of increasing the Manchester service to the current 3 trains per hour timetable. Again, the SRA (or DfT) insisted on boosting the Manchester service. In recent years, Virgin also tried to introduce extra Liverpool trains, but were prevented from doing so. It's the DfT that are preventing the expansion of Liverpool services in certain franchises - not the train operators themselves.
 

Johnny Lewis

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I'll also point out that I worked as part of the Railtrack / Network Rail Train Planning team that wrote the initial timetables for the WCML when the Voyagers and Pendolinos were introduced. So this isn't just another pro/anti-Liverpool sob story: I know the individuals who were responsible for chopping virtually every long-distance service from Liverpool at that time.
 

JonathanH

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Just remember that it was the Strategic Rail Authority, not Virgin, that pulled the plug on Cross Country and Arriva Trains Wales from continuing to serve Liverpool, as well as truncating the Liverpool - Birmingham - Stansted Airport services, so that they became a glorified commuter service. This was done with deliberate intent: those responsible regarded Liverpool as a "declining city" - just about the time it was voted to be European Capital of Culture.

They took a strategic view of how to service each route with a regular service that was the same each hour rather than some complicated mix of a service one hour and not the next.

It's also worth pointing out that, prior to the 2008 West Coast Pendolino timetable, Virgin would have sooner increased the London to Liverpool service to 2 trains per hour ahead of increasing the Manchester service to the current 3 trains per hour timetable. Again, the SRA (or DfT) insisted on boosting the Manchester service. In recent years, Virgin also tried to introduce extra Liverpool trains, but were prevented from doing so. It's the DfT that are preventing the expansion of Liverpool services in certain franchises - not the train operators themselves.

Would Wilmslow or the Stoke route have missed out as result?

The 'simplicity' of the current timetable structure works fairly well - it is clear which operator runs which route. Would London Midland have run from Birmingham alternately to Manchester and Liverpool if you had had your way? Would you take one of the London Northwestern services off the Liverpool route now?

I'll also point out that I worked as part of the Railtrack / Network Rail Train Planning team that wrote the initial timetables for the WCML when the Voyagers and Pendolinos were introduced. So this isn't just another pro/anti-Liverpool sob story: I know the individuals who were responsible for chopping virtually every long-distance service from Liverpool at that time.

So, why didn't Liverpool get an hourly Cross Country service as part of the Voyager revolution? If it had had a credible long distance service in the first place in September 2002 - ie a train every hour - it might have been easier to maintain the Cross Country service.

On this point, is there a book I can read about how the 'dream' for Cross Country was cut back to what actually happened in September 2002? Looking back to timetables from the time, the early promise of a expansion of the Cross Country network through 2001 and the summer of 2002 turned out to be nothing of the sort in the September 2002 timetable.
 

cle

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I wonder how much detrimental affect this has had on the city, in terms of economic growth.
Probably zero in terms of shuffling old biddies down to Poole.

But to the original question, the answer is yes, but in a different form as the railways have evolved:

TPE via Preston to Glasgow (3tpd)
TPE via York to Edinburgh (a few tpd, hourly coming soon)
Cardiff via Halton curve (two hourly, coming soon)

Not sure what the highest frequencies ever were, but these were the three biggest city gaps often mentioned. The South Coast was never that big a deal for regular travellers, but Oxford/Reading/Southampton perhaps. I'd say Bristol might be the next biggest hole now.
 

tbtc

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Just remember that it was the Strategic Rail Authority, not Virgin, that pulled the plug on Cross Country and Arriva Trains Wales from continuing to serve Liverpool, as well as truncating the Liverpool - Birmingham - Stansted Airport services, so that they became a glorified commuter service. This was done with deliberate intent: those responsible regarded Liverpool as a "declining city"

We've seen a simplification of services over the years, some places gained whilst other lost out.

For example, the "East Anglia - Hope Valley - North West" corridor (which used to have eastern destinations such as Cambridge/ Ipswich/ Harwich, sometimes running via Loughborough instead of Grantham, western destinations such as Blackpool or up the WCML to Scotland) coalesced into a simple hourly Liverpool service - i.e. Liverpool gained an hourly service whilst Blackpool/ Cumbria lost their direct service to Sheffield/ East Midlands/ East Anglia.

But people living in a place don't appreciate the "gains", they can only perceive the "losses" - hence Liverpudlians complaining about the loss of an XC service that was at best every two hours (and, in BR days, used 158s at times) but not appreciating when they gained at the expense of other places.

Same is true of other coastal destinations - Hull and Sunderland have lost a number of longer distance links over the years - Swansea lost its Bristol/ Birmingham services when Wales & Borders remapped the franchises (some of the Bristol services ran beyond there to Devon/ London) - but there's not the same "narrative" made about these other coastal places seeing their range of longer distance services downgraded/ lost.

By definition, the railway simply cannot cater for where everyone wants to go. However hard the industry tries, in all its parts, if you're not willing/able to change trains - despite the availablity of assistance to do so at all major stations - then your options are always going to be limited.

It's about doing what's best for the majority, and providing support for the minority as best is possible, not pandering to the whims of those who would like a once a day service from x to y, because it would suit them.

Agreed.

Some combinations of large places deserve a regular link (e.g. Manchester to London)... some combinations of large places have a link through luck/accident (e.g. Stoke to Watford)... some combinations of places don't have a direct link because there's no way we can link everywhere to everywhere and on a busy railway then increasing the service to one city comes at the opportunity cost of another city).

I'm perfectly relaxed about National Express coaches filling the gap for the kind of "time rich" passengers (pensioners etc) who have all day to wait around for one daily direct service for a journey like Bournemouth to Birkenhead - the railway can't link everywhere and the railway shouldn't try to link everywhere - if that means losing a few passengers at the margins then IMHO it's worth doing so if it means significantly more are attracted to simple reliable patterns.

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to the kind of elderly passengers who'd be too anxious to deal with a rail journey that will nowadays require multiple changes, but that's a market that National Express can cater for much better (hence the reason that their coach services are a weird and wonderful combination of desperate destinations - good luck to them - they can fill that gap in the market - let heavy rail do what it does best.
 

frodshamfella

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Probably zero in terms of shuffling old biddies down to Poole.

But to the original question, the answer is yes, but in a different form as the railways have evolved:

TPE via Preston to Glasgow (3tpd)
TPE via York to Edinburgh (a few tpd, hourly coming soon)
Cardiff via Halton curve (two hourly, coming soon)

Not sure what the highest frequencies ever were, but these were the three biggest city gaps often mentioned. The South Coast was never that big a deal for regular travellers, but Oxford/Reading/Southampton perhaps. I'd say Bristol might be the next biggest hole now.

I was wondering about the TFW Cardiff service as I use their newish service from Frodsham to Liverpool quite often, it seems to have taken off with passengers well, however it was always planned to go further. Do you know when this might be ?
Agree with you Bristol / Southampton would be good to have too.
 

krus_aragon

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I was wondering about the TFW Cardiff service as I use their newish service from Frodsham to Liverpool quite often, it seems to have taken off with passengers well, however it was always planned to go further. Do you know when this might be ?
It's part of a big timetable recast planned for December 2022, once the new Class 197 stock has been introduced.
 

londonteacher

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1 train to Manchester, changing at Piccadilly, then 1 to the South Coast. Just saying.

Is there enough demand for the service from Liverpool to the South Coast? Probably not.
 

frodshamfella

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1 train to Manchester, changing at Piccadilly, then 1 to the South Coast. Just saying.

Is there enough demand for the service from Liverpool to the South Coast? Probably not.

That is going round the houses, and frankly no one would do it.

There is another post on here about Flybe, primarily talking about Newquay flights. My mum flew from Liverpool to Newquay with flybe last summer. It was by far the easiest and most comfortable way to do it.

I think there would certainly be enough demand from Liverpool, Runcorn, Crewe to Devon/Cornwall in the season, I would say its more holiday traffic going here.

However Southampton, Oxford, Reading, Bristol is a different story, there would be year round demand.
 

Djgr

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1 train to Manchester, changing at Piccadilly, then 1 to the South Coast. Just saying.

Is there enough demand for the service from Liverpool to the South Coast? Probably not.


Indeed, plenty of other options that involve a single change of train (Birmingham, Stafford etc.) or crossing London.
There would not be enough traffic for say an hourly service but two or three times a day, undoubtedly.

(Every time I go into Liverpool at a weekend it feels as if every other person is a visitor)
 

frodshamfella

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Indeed, plenty of other options that involve a single change of train (Birmingham, Stafford etc.) or crossing London.
There would not be enough traffic for say an hourly service but two or three times a day, undoubtedly.

(Every time I go into Liverpool at a weekend it feels as if every other person is a visitor)

That's true enough, there are many tourists arriving in Liverpool from all over these days.
 

cle

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That is going round the houses, and frankly no one would do it.

There is another post on here about Flybe, primarily talking about Newquay flights. My mum flew from Liverpool to Newquay with flybe last summer. It was by far the easiest and most comfortable way to do it.

I think there would certainly be enough demand from Liverpool, Runcorn, Crewe to Devon/Cornwall in the season, I would say its more holiday traffic going here.

However Southampton, Oxford, Reading, Bristol is a different story, there would be year round demand.

I agree - but frequent services can't operate for one-off seasonal journeys unless there is a lot of scale. I could see an XC Southampton/Reading service running to Liverpool if there was another frequency to Manchester via EWR, one day.

The other development I didn't mention (more regional than XC, but way more obvious and important for Liverpool) from Halton is the direct North Wales routes. That will add more new places back onto the destination board, with South Parkway being here now and adding more journey possibilities - so that is another new route to consider as coming online. So Liverpool is getting a fair few new services in the next few years.

I can see the Halton services becoming 2tph in time - a slow to Chester/Wrexham and a fast to N/S Wales. Or an hourly Coast and an hourly Wrexham/South. But that region is hugely connected to Liverpool and I think there is a lot of suppressed demand.
 

frodshamfella

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I agree - but frequent services can't operate for one-off seasonal journeys unless there is a lot of scale. I could see an XC Southampton/Reading service running to Liverpool if there was another frequency to Manchester via EWR, one day.

The other development I didn't mention (more regional than XC, but way more obvious and important for Liverpool) from Halton is the direct North Wales routes. That will add more new places back onto the destination board, with South Parkway being here now and adding more journey possibilities - so that is another new route to consider as coming online. So Liverpool is getting a fair few new services in the next few years.

I can see the Halton services becoming 2tph in time - a slow to Chester/Wrexham and a fast to N/S Wales. Or an hourly Coast and an hourly Wrexham/South. But that region is hugely connected to Liverpool and I think there is a lot of suppressed demand.

Yes.i agree..I use the Halton Curve service often it appears to be catching on.nicely
 

gray1404

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I find the best way to connect to Cross Country Services from Liverpool is at Stafford. Time it right and its possible to connect with the service to Exeter, Bristol or Bournemouth
 
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