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Does being stranded for several hours constitute false imprisonment?

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nanstallon

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I am frequently appalled by hearing of people being stuck on trains that have failed or been held up by a signalling or other infrastructure failing I speak from experience, having been stuck on a train for five hours with no fresh air on a hot day, and the buffet car not even giving out water except at the usual extortionate price. Other trains went past us on the other track, including ones going in the same direction using a cross-over.

Now I read of passengers travelling across Yorkshire being stranded on trains for up to five hours with no access to a toilet, water or food after damaged overhead cables caused chaos just outside Leeds. A train from Ilkley stopped at Armley Junction at around 7.40am. They had to turn power off so the train got really hot and there could be no use of toilets as they are electric. People were not rescued until mid-day. Needless to say, police were called, presumably to prevent anyone from daring to attempt an escape.

I find it an absolute disgrace that people are abandoned by TOCs in this way. It rather puts me off rail travel.
 
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Darandio

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Are you saying that you were stuck on a train for five hours on a hot day and the only way to obtain water was to buy it?

Sorry to be blunt but I don't believe a word of it.
 

dilbertphil

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I think you will probably find it's a very rare occurrence.
 
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nanstallon

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Are you saying that you were stuck on a train for five hours on a hot day and the only way to obtain water was to buy it?

Sorry to be blunt but I don't believe a word of it.

It did happen - I wrote to the local newspapers and got some compensation for it.
 
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dilbertphil

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When did this occur? Give us some details so people can look at it for you.
 
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DarloRich

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I am frequently appalled by hearing of people being stuck on trains that have failed or been held up by a signalling or other infrastructure failing I speak from experience, having been stuck on a train for five hours with no fresh air on a hot day, and the buffet car not even giving out water except at the usual extortionate price. Other trains went past us on the other track, including ones going in the same direction using a cross-over.

Now I read of passengers travelling across Yorkshire being stranded on trains for up to five hours with no access to a toilet, water or food after damaged overhead cables caused chaos just outside Leeds. A train from Ilkley stopped at Armley Junction at around 7.40am. They had to turn power off so the train got really hot and there could be no use of toilets as they are electric. People were not rescued until mid-day. Needless to say, police were called, presumably to prevent anyone from daring to attempt an escape.

I find it an absolute disgrace that people are abandoned by TOCs in this way. It rather puts me off rail travel.

Some details of your "imprisonment " would be useful.

Ps it isnt false imprisonment.
 
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nanstallon

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When did this occur? Give us some details so people can look at it for you.

27th March 2007; a Virgin Cross-country Trains morning service from Penzance to Manchester (I think; may have been somewhere else in the North, but I was only going to Plymouth). The train failed just east of Bodmin Parkway.
 
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Greg Read

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I have a feeling that if he gave details of train and date, whereby those that have access can double check, may fall a little wide of the mark.

Just seen...... 2007 ! LOL :)
 

Bertie the bus

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I think you will probably find it's a very rare occurrence.
I think you’ll find it isn’t that rare at all. It happens several times per year. Normally it gets little attention and so things carry on as normal but on the rare occasions it does get media coverage or the passengers make a break for it the rail industry has a think about it for a good 35 seconds, claim they’ve learnt lessons and then exactly the same thing happens again. They keep getting told to ensure passengers aren’t kept on a failed train indefinitely and they keep doing nothing to prevent it from happening.
 
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nanstallon

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I think you’ll find it isn’t that rare at all. It happens several times per year. Normally it gets little attention and so things carry on as normal but on the rare occasions it does get media coverage or the passengers make a break for it the rail industry has a think about it for a good 35 seconds, claim they’ve learnt lessons and then exactly the same thing happens again. They keep getting told to ensure passengers aren’t kept on a failed train indefinitely and they keep doing nothing to prevent it from happening.

My original post was about the general problem, and I merely stated my own experience.
 
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LAX54

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Looks like it was 1S67 failed at 1045, did have a rescue unit, but that made the failure worse, on the move at 1525 almost 12 years ago, nowadays when there is trouble, trains are supposed to be held in stations where possible, and food and drink is given out after an hour or so.

So yes lessons learnt and things changed (where possible). I think now when there is a failure a clock starts ticking, for a decision on detraining etc, which as most will agree is not always possible
 

dilbertphil

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I think you’ll find it isn’t that rare at all. It happens several times per year. Normally it gets little attention and so things carry on as normal but on the rare occasions it does get media coverage or the passengers make a break for it the rail industry has a think about it for a good 35 seconds, claim they’ve learnt lessons and then exactly the same thing happens again. They keep getting told to ensure passengers aren’t kept on a failed train indefinitely and they keep doing nothing to prevent it from happening.

Several times a year!! How many passenger trains run each year, and how many get delayed like this? Work out a percentage.
 
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LAX54

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Several times a year!! How many passenger trains run each year, and how many get delayed like this? Work out a percentage.


22, 500 per day (surprised me too) and over the year 8,212,500 ! 1.7 billion passenger journeys per year !
 
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fergusjbend

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False imprisonment requires an intention to deprive the victim of liberty. Loss of liberty resulting from an accident, or even negligence is not false imprisonment.
 

Belperpete

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It is not exactly uncommon that traffic gets stuck in a motorway jam for hours on end, with no access to refreshments, toilets, etc.
 

yorksrob

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False imprisonment, obviously not.

But there have been cases where passengers have been stranded on trains beyond what can reasonably be deemed acceptable. The case last year near Lewisham being the memorable one.
 

Surreytraveller

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Perhaps someone stuck in A&E for longer than it should have taken to be treated should be constituted as false imprisonment too?
 

Class1

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Perhaps someone stuck in A&E for longer than it should have taken to be treated should be constituted as false imprisonment too?
I'm not in anyway suggesting that being stuck on a train is equivalent to false imprisonment but to compare it to an extented stay in a+e is frankly ridiculous. The most obvious difference being that the doors to an a+e department aren't locked.
 

Bedpan

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I suppose it all boils down to how reasonable or unreasonable the delay is. Sometimes incidents happen and people are unlucky enough to get caught up in the aftermath, whether it be an accident blocking the carriageway of a motorway or a train grinding to a halt because the wires are down, in both cases I would expect the delay to run into hours (although hopefully not too many hours). On the other hand, when, as happened fairly recently at Clapham Junction, a faulty train ground to a halt when still within the platform, I think it inexcusable that the doors were not released to let people disembark for a full 40 minutes.
 

LAX54

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I suppose it all boils down to how reasonable or unreasonable the delay is. Sometimes incidents happen and people are unlucky enough to get caught up in the aftermath, whether it be an accident blocking the carriageway of a motorway or a train grinding to a halt because the wires are down, in both cases I would expect the delay to run into hours (although hopefully not too many hours). On the other hand, when, as happened fairly recently at Clapham Junction, a faulty train ground to a halt when still within the platform, I think it inexcusable that the doors were not released to let people disembark for a full 40 minutes.

I suppose if you are on the train that was involved in the initial incident, then you are always going to be the one stuck for longest, which could run into hours depending on the problem, wires wrapped around the train, is never going to be a quick fix, likewise the train in the same electrical section behind, others maybe able to set back to a station, and / or terminate at that location.
Assistance is always the first option, but again can take time to get a loco / unit to the scene, sometimes a simple failure can be assisted by the train that is following, if compatible, problem arises if the fault is transferred, which then has just doubled the problem at a stroke !
Detrain is always a last option, as it is fraught with possible problems / injury etc

Also I think sometimes in Control or the Crew etc, they get so engrossed in trying to get things moving, either the train fixed, or a rescue etc, that time flies past, and before you know it, 2 or 3 hrs have passed

It's difficult, but that of course is of no consolation to the passengers stuck on the train, and of course the railway runs so many trains now, there seems no 'fire break' if you have a 3 to 4 min headway, it will take just 'minutes' for a real tail-back of trains caught up in the failure.

Agree with 'Bedpan' if a train has failed, and part of it is still on the platform, just detrain as soon as you know it's not going anywhere soon ! (you can always put 'em back on if it's fixed)

Remember years ago, when GE had the 86's / DBSO's an 86 caught fire between Colchester and Manningtree, it was obvious that there would be no movement on any line anytime soon, so the mobile supervisor, and guard helped detrain, they were then walked through a field to the Main Road, and into the pub (Wooden Fender) where the Supervisor made sure everyone was comfortable, and even bought them all a drink, both hot and 'cold' :) (He DID keep the receipt tho ! ) I am not sure they were in much of a hurry for the replacement bus to turn up :)
 

londonboi198o5

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I think lessons have been learned from previous bad experiences so to speak with regards to pax “stuck” on trains for long periods.
After any major event most companies if not all will hold a conference call and a “lessons learnt” approach takes please. They will highlight good points and the bad points so as to not repeat the bad points again where possible.
Sadly it’s not always that easy because every incident will be different ie different location different times of day weather stock etc etc which can make an approach to a situation different.
Thankfully these incidents are pretty rare compared to the number of train journeys per day so chances of it happening to a train you are in is pretty slim.
It’s one of these cases were you deal with it as and if/when it happens
 
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Chrisgr31

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Also I think sometimes in Control or the Crew etc, they get so engrossed in trying to get things moving, either the train fixed, or a rescue etc, that time flies past, and before you know it, 2 or 3 hrs have passed

I think this tends to be what happens. Reality is Control tends to have very few staff on duty, because 99.9% of the time you dont need very many. On that occasion when something goes horribly wrong, ie beyond the normal, they are understaffed. Not only that but they are relying on reports coming in from a number of sources, some of which may be incorrect. They are being badgered etc. They will also probably be concentrating on getting the trains that are stationary moving again as in 99.9% cases thats quicker and easier for everyone than detraining. The chances are they are also being told by engineers etc if we do this it will be moving in 15 minutes etc. Detraining has to be the last resort and to an extent, although I understand this bit is impossible, its up to the passengers to realise that the TOCs actually want trains moving and dont want trains stuck anywhere.

You get the impression from social media on occasions that some passengers seem to have the view that TOCs deliberately try and foul it up!
 

PeterC

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It is not exactly uncommon that traffic gets stuck in a motorway jam for hours on end, with no access to refreshments, toilets, etc.
Indeed, I have never been held up on the railway for anything like delays that I have encountered on the M1 or M25.

I think this tends to be what happens. Reality is Control tends to have very few staff on duty, because 99.9% of the time you dont need very many. On that occasion when something goes horribly wrong, ie beyond the normal, they are understaffed. Not only that but they are relying on reports coming in from a number of sources, some of which may be incorrect. They are being badgered etc. They will also probably be concentrating on getting the trains that are stationary moving again as in 99.9% cases thats quicker and easier for everyone than detraining. The chances are they are also being told by engineers etc if we do this it will be moving in 15 minutes etc. Detraining has to be the last resort and to an extent, although I understand this bit is impossible, its up to the passengers to realise that the TOCs actually want trains moving and dont want trains stuck anywhere.

You get the impression from social media on occasions that some passengers seem to have the view that TOCs deliberately try and foul it up!
My experience in other industries is that the last thing that you need when trying to fix a time critical issue is people flapping around demanding how long it will take to fix. To which the real answer usually is "five minutes longer than if you hadn't interrupted me!"
 

driver_m

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Even back then, XC would have likely had a contingency cupboard on a Voyager for exactly the kind of issue that you mention. Would have had water , biscuits that sort of thing. How taking something up from 12 years ago is supposed to help is beyond me though....... That idea that people THINK they're imprisoned means they are more likely to detrain, and an uncontrolled detrainment is fraught with danger .The onboard safety advice rings very true and is there for genuine safety, not backside covering. One day an uncontrolled evac is going to have serious consequences.
 

Deafdoggie

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What annoys me is when they only trap you for 29 minutes and you can't claim Delay Repay :lol:
 

Bikeman78

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It is not exactly uncommon that traffic gets stuck in a motorway jam for hours on end, with no access to refreshments, toilets, etc.
At least you can get out of your car and pee on the verge rather than wet yourself. The people around Lewisham and St Johns last year didn't have that option and apparently some ended up wetting themselves where they stood. Hopefully the RAIB report will be out soon.
 

FGW_DID

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What does surprise me is that the TOC Controls don’t keep a database of all the experts that seem to frequent threads like this, so they can give them a call and get it sorted under ten minutes!
 

PR1Berske

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The short answer to the question in the title is, "no."

Imprisonment needs malicious intent, loss of liberty, and rejection of due process. All of which do not come anywhere close to a group of people on a train during a power cut.

Of course the industry could do more to improve the lot of passengers in that horrible situation. But to call it anything more than an inconvenience would be to walk into the realm of hyperbolic theatrics.
 
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