Does Finsbury Park count as Via London

[adambowie]

I want to travel from Enfield Chase to Cambridge. At the moment, you need to change to a bus for the Hertford North - Stevenage section between Mondays and Fridays, so I'd like to travel via Finsbury Park. One change, and no buses.

But the cheapest tickets are for travel "NOT VIA LONDON - Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals."

Would Finsbury Park count? I don't think it counts as a London Terminal.

Incidentally, if you try to force this route asking for tickets "via Finsbury Park" on most online ticketing services, it won't offer you a ticket for sale via this route. Yet it's actually the fastest route to travel. That "NOT VIA LONDON" ticket is only displayed for routes via Hertford and Stevenage.

Any thoughts?

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Finsbury Park would be OK in general for a Not London fare, but it's not on any valid route from Enfield Chase to Cambridge. Unfortunately the fastest route is occasionally not valid, it would make things a lot simpler if the rules were changed!

 

[hkstudent]

Finsbury Park would be OK in general for a Not London fare, but it's not on any valid route from Enfield Chase to Cambridge. Unfortunately the fastest route is occasionally not valid, it would make things a lot simpler if the rules were changed!

Great Northern has specified the ticket acceptance of via Finsbury Park during Watton On Stone - Stevenage engineering work period
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/a.../trains-between-stevenage-and-watton-at-stone

 

[RJ]

I want to travel from Enfield Chase to Cambridge. At the moment, you need to change to a bus for the Hertford North - Stevenage section between Mondays and Fridays, so I'd like to travel via Finsbury Park. One change, and no buses.

But the cheapest tickets are for travel "NOT VIA LONDON - Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) London Terminals."

Would Finsbury Park count? I don't think it counts as a London Terminal.

Incidentally, if you try to force this route asking for tickets "via Finsbury Park" on most online ticketing services, it won't offer you a ticket for sale via this route. Yet it's actually the fastest route to travel. That "NOT VIA LONDON" ticket is only displayed for routes via Hertford and Stevenage.

Any thoughts?

You'll be ok. London Terminals has a specific technical definition where it comes to tickets. In your case, you can't travel to or through St Pancras, Kings Cross or Drayton Park on that ticket, but Finsbury Park is fine to change trains while that replacement bus service is in operation.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Finsbury Park would be OK in general for a Not London fare, but it's not on any valid route from Enfield Chase to Cambridge.

This is not true; there is a LONDON mapped route from Alexandra Palace (origin routeing point) to Cambridge. This has been discussed on the forum before in the context of "The routes LONDON and NOT LONDON are not mutually exclusive" - my opinion is that since you don't have to do the full doubleback to London, it is fine to change at Finsbury Park on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket.

 

[RJ]

This is not true; there is a LONDON mapped route from Alexandra Palace (origin routeing point) to Cambridge. This has been discussed on the forum before in the context of "The routes LONDON and NOT LONDON are not mutually exclusive" - my opinion is that since you don't have to do the full doubleback to London, it is fine to change at Finsbury Park on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket.

Does this apply when there is a fare available that is valid via London, or there is a mapped route that avoids London?

 

[adambowie]

Thanks for the clarifications. In particular the fact that during the Stevenage engineering work period, there's specific dispensation to change at Finsbury Park or Alexandra Palace. Useful to know.

 

[Andrew1395]

Won't you doubleback through Alexandra Palace if you go via Finsbury Park?

 

[sheff1]

Won't you doubleback through Alexandra Palace if you go via Finsbury Park?

Doesn't matter. Travel is specifically allowed via Finsbury Park for the duration of the works.

 

[Andrew1395]

Apologies, I was referring back to the comment below, that I had not realised was referring specifically to the engineering period.

"There is a LONDON mapped route from Alexandra Palace (origin routeing point) to Cambridge......that since you don't have to do the full doubleback to London, it is fine to change at Finsbury Park on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket."

 

[Paul Kelly]

Does this apply when there is a fare available that is valid via London

If there were two fares available, routed VIA LONDON and NOT VIA LONDON, and travel via London was only permitted by virtue of the VIA LONDON route requiring it, then I think that would be a different case and it would not implicitly allow a doubleback from Finsbury Park on the NOT VIA LONDON fare.

So, I suppose I am arguing that since the LONDON mapped route is defined in the routeing guide, it applies to all fares. Then it's a separate issue as to whether you are compelled to do the full doubleback when making use of the LONDON mapped route. I don't think the availability of other mapped routes avoiding London is relevant.

Apologies, I was referring back to the comment below, that I had not realised was referring specifically to the engineering period.

"There is a LONDON mapped route from Alexandra Palace (origin routeing point) to Cambridge......that since you don't have to do the full doubleback to London, it is fine to change at Finsbury Park on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket."

No, I wasn't specifically referring to the engineering period; I meant more generally - when there is a LONDON mapped route as far as I can see there is no problem with changing short of London where it would be advantageous. In this case you can't go via London without doubling back through Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Haringay and Finsbury Park; the question is whether you are compelled to doubleback through all of them or not.

 

[AlbertBeale]

If there were two fares available, routed VIA LONDON and NOT VIA LONDON, and travel via London was only permitted by virtue of the VIA LONDON route requiring it, then I think that would be a different case and it would not implicitly allow a doubleback from Finsbury Park on the NOT VIA LONDON fare.

So, I suppose I am arguing that since the LONDON mapped route is defined in the routeing guide, it applies to all fares. Then it's a separate issue as to whether you are compelled to do the full doubleback when making use of the LONDON mapped route. I don't think the availability of other mapped routes avoiding London is relevant.
No, I wasn't specifically referring to the engineering period; I meant more generally - when there is a LONDON mapped route as far as I can see there is no problem with changing short of London where it would be advantageous. In this case you can't go via London without doubling back through Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Haringay and Finsbury Park; the question is whether you are compelled to doubleback through all of them or not.

Sorry for ignorance, but what does "a LONDON mapped route" mean?

 

[jawr256]

This is not true; there is a LONDON mapped route from Alexandra Palace (origin routeing point) to Cambridge. This has been discussed on the forum before in the context of "The routes LONDON and NOT LONDON are not mutually exclusive" - my opinion is that since you don't have to do the full doubleback to London, it is fine to change at Finsbury Park on a NOT VIA LONDON ticket.

When the engineering works exception does not apply (eg. at weekends), is Alexandra Palace an appropriate routeing point for Enfield Chase? The routeing point calculator is unhelpful on the matter as it can't find any NFM64 fares, but I note that the present day Anytime Day Single for Alexandra Palace to Cambridge routed Not Via London (£24.10) is more expensive than the corresponding fare from Enfield Chase (£22.70).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Sorry for ignorance, but what does "a LONDON mapped route" mean?

Section C of the Routeing Guide (the yellow pages) lists the combinations of maps on which you are permitted to trace your route between every two pairs of routeing points. For some journeys, as well as (or instead of) a list of map combinations, it gives the special map code "LONDON", which means you can trace your route on any of the map combinations from your origin routeing point to London routeing group, and then on any of the map combinations from London routeing group to your destination routeing point.

I am suggesting that if you can trace such a route to and from London, it may not be necessary to do the full double-back, if you can change short of London (but still following mapped routes to and from London).

 

[RJ]

If there were two fares available, routed VIA LONDON and NOT VIA LONDON, and travel via London was only permitted by virtue of the VIA LONDON route requiring it, then I think that would be a different case and it would not implicitly allow a doubleback from Finsbury Park on the NOT VIA LONDON fare.

So, I suppose I am arguing that since the LONDON mapped route is defined in the routeing guide, it applies to all fares. Then it's a separate issue as to whether you are compelled to do the full doubleback when making use of the LONDON mapped route. I don't think the availability of other mapped routes avoiding London is relevant.
No, I wasn't specifically referring to the engineering period; I meant more generally - when there is a LONDON mapped route as far as I can see there is no problem with changing short of London where it would be advantageous. In this case you can't go via London without doubling back through Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Haringay and Finsbury Park; the question is whether you are compelled to doubleback through all of them or not.

I understand your logic but wasn't there a context that the only mapped route was LONDON in that case?

I think it's fine to trace a route that avoids London using LONDON map combos and yes, there is a dispensation to double back via London Terminals if you have a ticket that allows travel via London. What you're suggesting is tracing a route that goes via London Terminals, but given that ticket doesn't allow that, I don't think you get that right to double back south of Alexandra Palace.

In this case, a right is given to double back between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park because of the engineering works, but I'm not convinced there is anything else that allows it and certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do that!

 

[Paul Kelly]

When the engineering works exception does not apply (eg. at weekends), is Alexandra Palace an appropriate routeing point for Enfield Chase? The routeing point calculator is unhelpful on the matter as it can't find any NFM64 fares

Very good question! Back in NFM64, the fares were defined from the Enfield Chase/Town fares group, rather than specifically from Enfield Chase, and it seems that the routeing point calculator can't handle that. Here are the fares:

Enfield Chase/Town to Cambridge
ANY PERMITTED
CDS £16.10
SDS £17.10
NOT LONDON
CDS £11.90
SDS £12.60

Alexandra Palace to Cambridge
ANY PERMITTED
CDS £12.40
SDS £14.50

The ANY PERMITTED fares are cheaper from AAP, so it passes the fares check. There are no NOT LONDON fares from AAP-CBG, so we also use the ANY PERMITTED fares for comparison, but that check fails because they are more expensive for both ticket types.

So it seems to me that:
Alexandra Palace passes the fares check when using the ANY PERMITTED fares, and fails when using the NOT VIA LONDON fares. So I think I need to take back what I said before - you can't travel via Finsbury Park on a NOT VIA LONDON fare, since Alexandra Palace is not an appropriate routeing point. You need to be travelling on an ANY PERMITTED fare. But I still maintain that you don't need to do the full doubleback to London!

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think it's fine to trace a route that avoids London using LONDON map combos and yes, there is a dispensation to double back via London Terminals if you have a ticket that allows travel via London. What you're suggesting is tracing a route that goes via London Terminals, but given that ticket doesn't allow that, I don't think you get that right to double back south of Alexandra Palace.

I wouldn't be totally against that interpretation either. It is certainly easier to argue. In any case having discovered that AAP fails the fares check for a NOT VIA LONDON fare I'm no longer arguing that you can do the Finsbury Park doubleback in this case...

In this case, a right is given to double back between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park because of the engineering works, but I'm not convinced there is anything else that allows it and certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do that!

Yes indeed. How would a passenger know to check that page on the Great Northern website? The easement should be given contractual basis by putting it in the Routeing Guide. Perhaps that will happen now that it has been raised here. As far as I can see, it needs both a routeing point easement to allow AAP on the "NOT VIA LONDON" fares, and a doubleback easement to allow the doubleback from Finsbury Park through Alexandra Palace, Horney and Haringay. Then as far as I can see the route will be entirely traceable on map KE and we won't need to worry about using the LONDON route and changing short.

 

[Paul Kelly]

After further thought, I may have made a mistake in my NFM64 logic. I think because there no NO LONDON fares from AAP-CBG to compare to, but the fares check passes for ANY PERMITTED, the correct course of action is to pass it for all fares. So it's only a doubleback easement that is needed.

 

[adambowie]

Well I'm glad that I wasn't asking a stupid question about all of this

Since there were a few questions about turning around at Alexandra Palace, it's worth noting that you absolutely could, but in many instances, the you'd be much faster getting a service from Finsbury Park that runs all the way to Cambridge and runs fast between Finsbury Park and Potter's Bar. Services that stop at Alexandra Palace are (nearly?) always going to terminate at Welwyn Garden City where you'd have to change trains anyway.

 

[hkstudent]

After further thought, I may have made a mistake in my NFM64 logic. I think because there no NO LONDON fares from AAP-CBG to compare to, but the fares check passes for ANY PERMITTED, the correct course of action is to pass it for all fares. So it's only a doubleback easement that is needed.

I think the issue is since the Stevenage - Watton-On-Stone works would be a short term one, so there's so easement for via Alexandar Palace / Finsbury Park be recorded in routing guide?
Of course, from Great Northern website I quoted, via Alexandra Palace / Finsbury Park should certainly be fine even for NOT VIA LONDON ticket.

 

[greatkingrat]

There are plenty of short-term easements for engineering work already in the Routeing Guide, so no reason why this one couldn't be added too.