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Does the current system actually encourage TOCs to cancel trains in bad weather

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PhilipW

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I was reading elsewhere that on stormy days like today train companies may still incur financial penalties if their trains are late, but if they cancel them then there are no penalties.

So announcing that there will be no trains until 09:00 is far better proposition for them than announcing that they will just run a 50% service from 07:00 knowing that in all likelihood a fair number may arrive late ....... but at least the passengers will get there.

Can this be true ? Surely it is illogical to penalise companies for acts of nature.
 
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Monty

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The majority of lines down in the south are blocked in various locations, it's not practical nor is it safe to run any trains until the lines are clear. There is absolutely no point in trying to run a full timetable.
 

PhilipW

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The majority of lines down in the south are blocked in various locations, it's not practical nor is it safe to run any trains until the lines are clear. There is absolutely no point in trying to run a full timetable.

Point taken. I am not attempting to question any particular TOC about what they are doing today. It is a more general question about how the system operates.
 

NSEFAN

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Well if we want to assign blame, then Network Rail would take the delay minutes as it is their responsibility to keep the line clear. ;)
 

High Dyke

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If the TOC cancels services it also means that Network Rail aren't being penalised for flooding, fallen trees - anything affected by adverse weather basically. Delay attribution set-up means NR have to pay for trains delayed by these acts of nature.
 

Monty

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Point taken. I am not attempting to question any particular TOC about what they are doing today. It is a more general question about how the system operates.

Ah okay :), apologises if it sounded like I was having a go. As you can imagine its been a busy morning!
 

Taunton

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If the TOC cancels services it also means that Network Rail aren't being penalised for flooding, fallen trees - anything affected by adverse weather basically. Delay attribution set-up means NR have to pay for trains delayed by these acts of nature.
Don't think it's all acts of nature. Many flooding incidents are due to inadequate maintenance of drainage, that only becomes apparent in heavy weather. Likewise lineside vegetation not kept cut back, and similar.
 

PhilipW

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If the TOC cancels services it also means that Network Rail aren't being penalised for flooding, fallen trees - anything affected by adverse weather basically. Delay attribution set-up means NR have to pay for trains delayed by these acts of nature.

OK, Thanks for that. I did not know that. Good information.

Can I put another situation.
Suppose by 10:30 this morning all lines are clear but there is still a fair chance of delay for one reason or another.
Does the TOC:
a) start running services as soon as it can ? Will it be penalised or Network Rail have to pay compensation if some run late ?
b) wait until it knows that it has a very good chance indeed of running on time so that no penalties will be incurred.

I would like to think that a TOC will resume services as soon as it can and that all penalties will be waived for the day
 
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E16 Cyclist

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In this case i don't think finance played any part in the decision to suspend services instead it says more about the current health and safety culture we live in. If Network rail allowed services to run and one of them hit a fallen tree at line speed then they would have left themselves open to corporate manslaughter charges. So in the circumstances they made the right pragmatic decision
 

Dolive22

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I would assume that delays caused by trees on the line and flooding remain the responsibility of Network Rail, including knock on effects ad infinitum (or ad nauseum if you have to balance Network Rail's budget).
 

ChiefPlanner

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Without going into too much detail , contractually , the timetable is known as "The plan of the day" - once this has been mutually cancelled due to agreement between operators and Network Rail , - a differing monitoring arrangement applies.

Yes - operators can start running again once conditions and traincrew / stock balances etc allow - and these will be monitored.

Note the operators have to record all this , and there will be a follow up by the DfT Franchise managers as part of their monthly , quarterly cycle. I assure you they ask some probing questions.
 

455driver

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Its all very well trying to run trains 'coz the line is clear' but where has the train come from and is that line clear or is any other line the train needs to use clear?

If any one would like to drive the first train down the Pompey direct line at 90 (or even 50)mph after a storm like last night then fine do it, I am not going to put my life or the lives of everyone else on that train in jeopardy just because some people are too naive or stupid to understand the dangers of trying to run a train at any sort of speed on lines that are not known to be clear!
Just because the line has been walked or a train has already worked over it before doesnt mean the line is still going to be clear when your train gets there, trees have a nasty habit of falling down when they want to and not when the railways want them too.
 

jon0844

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Seems Bob has succeeded in getting this talked about today then.

I was actually thinking earlier that, irrespective of how it works, TOCs will have still paid all of their staff today - and quite possibly had a massive drop in ticket revenue (as well as giving refunds to season ticket holders etc) so there would need to be some system of compensation in place, no?
 

Bald Rick

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I'm sure the 3 colleagues who sit opposite me sorting out all the delays would welcome the pay that would be due to an 'army of lawyers'
 

Mojo

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Network Rail told them not to run trains.... So no it is not true.
It is interesting that, at least according to the article, both the ORR and RDG said that the Tocs will receive payments from Network Rail. Elsewhere in this thread we have been told that they will not.
 

ChiefPlanner

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They certainly will today as a result of poor railhead conditions - though NR did their very best in clearing the lines of fallen trees , damaged OLE and so on.The amount of sludgy leaves down yesterday was quite striking + temperatures have dropped this evening.
 
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Network Rail told them not to run trains.... So no it is not true.

Network didn't tell them not to run trains, more like advised them not to run trains and this would perhaps include the freight companies too

If NR told them not to run trains they would have followed that up with action the during Monday themselves by keeping every signal on red, dont forget NR can stop the network quite easily, believe me NR will always will

However during the day wise had a situation where freight trains were running the same tracks as the cancelled passenger ones would have done, also we had CC and EMT running services as normal in the Ely area although the latter was erratic

One thing I would throw in the mix is that I would be surprised if some companies including NR doesnt have some sort of insurance in place for situations like this, it would more likely be an add on to their expensive liability insurance
 

Bald Rick

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No insurance for this; it's cheaper to self insure.

The amended train plans were all agreed between NR and operators in the 72 hours prior to Monday. Nevertheless, any change to a planned schedule in the 'applicable timetable' attracts compensation of some form, the amount varying by the size of the change and the notice given. Schedules confirmed by 2200 the previous evening are those that count towards PPM, ie if cancelled before then they are not a PPM failure. However (discounted) compensation is still due.

Notwithstanding the agreement to vary the schedules, severe weather that affects (or lands on) the infrastructure is NRs fault in delay attribution terms. So the compensation flows NR to operator.
 
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