Does the Rail hobby need a kick up the......

[HSTChris]

I don't intend this to be a plug so I hope the moderators don't see it that way... I run the Youth Rail Enthusiasts Association, and because of what I see through this I feel strongly that there's a lot of life left in this hobby yet!

We have a large group of young railway enthusiasts who visit us online regularly and talk about their travels and spottings. To me it just seems the way the hobby is done has changed, I don't think its got any less popular. There's a much bigger focus on videos and photos these days as opposed to crossing numbers off in a book. Young people these days seem more keen to go and do things like visit depots and boxes or record videos on the station rather than standing there with a book. There's a big focus on ranger and rover tickets too - not always just to cross off the units and locos, but just to visit new places and rack up rail mileage.

As for what types of train people follow, this seems to vary a lot. I do see a lot of interest in what I would describe as modern traction. Like people have already said in this thread you probably like what you grow up with. From my experience, people who like the older style locos tend to either have been brought into the hobbies by an older relative, or live near a preserved line where they can see these locos more frequently. Take your typical south coast resident like myself, I don't follow old locos so much simply because there are none around here so I've settled down with my units!

I hope this gives you a bit of an insight as to my point of view when running the youth group.

 

[sarahj]

As a aside, when I used to travel by train, I loved looking out the window at the sights. Ok, sometimes its a bit dull, but there can be highlights. A couple of weeks ago I was on a EC train from Alnmouth to York. There was a family sitting near, with two kids aged around the 8-10 mark. And they just sat and played on an I-pad. Bridge over the tyne at Newcastle, never looked up. Passing Durham and the sights, nope. And I bet they think train travel is boring.

 

[bb21]

If a young family visits a preserved railway they are looking to ride behind a steam locomotive, not a Class 37. This is why railways would rather spend their money restoring and repairing steam locos. Yes I agree that there will always be a place for diesels but steam is quite rightly the priority for restoration money.

What's wrong with 37's? Steam locomotives and diesel locomotives are both part of our heritage and are equally important. Some people prefer steam, and others prefer diesel. If a group of people who have some money to spend on the cause of railway preservation and decides to buy yet another 37 and not a kettle, and vice versa, so what?

 

[RichmondCommu]

What's wrong with 37's? Steam locomotives and diesel locomotives are both part of our heritage and are equally important. Some people prefer steam, and others prefer diesel. If a group of people who have some money to spend on the cause of railway preservation and decides to buy yet another 37 and not a kettle, and vice versa, so what?

From a commercial point of view steam haulage will always put bums on seats whether or not they are rail enthusiasts. Don't forget that many visitors to preserved railways are simply looking for a day out and they will naturally expect to see steam engines. Diesel haulage is far more of a niche market. Preserved railways cannot survive on the back of a niche market. This is why the normally diesel operated Wirksworth branch has hired a steam loco for the school holidays.

 

[bb21]

Of course, steam has its attractions, but that does not mean you cannot make it a successful day out with diesel engines.

I can quite easily understand people from an older generation generally preferring steam over diesel, but steam to many of the younger generation does not necessarily have the same association and connotation (and no, I don't mean enthusiasts). The world evolves. I have no objection against steam locos. I just don't think there should be such a mentality that one should necessarily be given more priority than the other. Anything preserved is a piece of heritage preserved.

 

[Boothby97]

It is sad to see our hobby dwindling so quickly, 17 locos scrapped in the last four months, especially as some of these were ETH fitted locos.

The ETH locomotives (37/4s and two 47s) were in a state, and were more useful as spares donors. It was uneconomical for most of them to be repaired. But, 15 (Class 68s) new locomotives will be arriving over the next 2 years which will have ETS.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Of course, steam has its attractions, but that does not mean you cannot make it a successful day out with diesel engines.

I can quite easily understand people from an older generation generally preferring steam over diesel, but steam to many of the younger generation does not necessarily have the same association and connotation (and no, I don't mean enthusiasts). The world evolves. I have no objection against steam locos. I just don't think there should be such a mentality that one should necessarily be given more priority than the other. Anything preserved is a piece of heritage preserved.

Whilst I respect your point of view I don't think you have a proper understanding of the preserved railways key markets. To a five year old child a diesel means very little. Show the same child a steam engine and things change very quickly. Adults with no real interest in railways will always be drawn to a steam loco. Without the tourist market (see above) the preserved railways that we as enthusiasts love cannot survive. Yes there will always be a place for diesels but you have to concentrate on your key markets.

 

[SussexSpotter]

I think steam is more worthy of preservation than diesel, coal will probably be around a lot longer than oil anyway!....

 

[ModernRailways]

I believe Steam will have it's time. What I think will happen, is in 10 or 20 years when the older generations start to disappear, we will start to see the shift. In 10 or 20 years what will our Railways look like? Look back 10 years ago, slam doors were still common-place in the southern regions, now they have been replaced with modern Class 377s, Class 450's, Class 444's etc. This also brings a shift, people then started seeing slam doors as heritage trains, and whilst Joe public won't get their camera out right now if they saw one who is to say that in 10 or 20 years time they won't be (or telling their headset to record)?

Steam will always be a fan favourite and will always rake in the crowds, but so will diesels and dare I say it, Electrics. Preserved lines will just need to keep up and make sure they don't get stuck in the past like some are. Most preserved routes should have well made websites. People like to be able to look before they head out. Enthusiasts will likely look on a website for volunteer positions.

37s are still fairly common, same with 47s. You can tell by the amount of people who go out to see them. Their are a lot less. I can see Pacers becoming the new old love when they go. People hate them right now, but when they're gone, people will miss them, they will moan about their new (well old, from another area) trains.

I imagine 66s will also go be a favourite eventually when they start to disappear. Granted that won't be for a good while yet. GBRf have another order for some more I believe?

 

[Condor7]

I don't intend this to be a plug so I hope the moderators don't see it that way... I run the Youth Rail Enthusiasts Association

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember you run this voluntarily, more likely than not at a loss if you count the time you put into it.

I am not sure if the moderators will agree but why not give it a plug, it is as far as I can see the only organisation out there for young rail enthusiasts, and needs all the promotion it can get if we want to keep this hobby fit and healthy.

 

[HSTChris]

I am not sure if the moderators will agree but why not give it a plug...

Bah, I've been told off enough times already lol.

 

[theblackwatch]

I hope this gives you a bit of an insight as to my point of view when running the youth group.

Surely the YREA only has a limited lifespan? Or will you hand it over to someone else when you are 26?

 

[HSTChris]

Surely the YREA only has a limited lifespan? Or will you hand it over to someone else when you are 26?

I will indeed hand it on, 6 years to to yet though

 

[DarloRich]

Of course, steam has its attractions, but that does not mean you cannot make it a successful day out with diesel engines.

I can quite easily understand people from an older generation generally preferring steam over diesel, but steam to many of the younger generation does not necessarily have the same association and connotation (and no, I don't mean enthusiasts). The world evolves. I have no objection against steam locos. I just don't think there should be such a mentality that one should necessarily be given more priority than the other. Anything preserved is a piece of heritage preserved.

I think that "normals" equate a preserved railway with a steam train railway. They dont want to see a diesel and expect a steam train. They dont care what type or class or company the steam engine is from as long as it IS a steam engine.

THAT makes or breaks the day for many and determines if they put their hand in their pocket and pay for a ride.

 

[Temple Meads]

I think that "normals" equate a preserved railway with a steam train railway. They dont want to see a diesel and expect a steam train. They dont care what type or class or company the steam engine is from as long as it IS a steam engine.

THAT makes or breaks the day for many and determines if they put their hand in their pocket and pay for a ride.

Definitely, you need steam to be the predominant force at a railway in order to pay for its upkeep, regardless of whether steam is more worthy of preservation or not.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I recall my folks once digging out a photo of Young Sun Chariot at Quainton Road in the mid-'70s, looking decidedly wary of the enormous (to young eyes) beast, heat shimmer and forbidding eruptions of loud steam from various places. Fast forward to 2009, over in New Mexico, where I saw a father and his similarly wary-but-awestruck son in front of a K-36 on the Cumbres & Toltec.

A steam contraption is more alien and fascinating to an uninitiated youngster. And, as several have already written, more marketable to the average family who simply want to be entertained and enjoyed.

One generation on from Young Sun Chariot, the fact that the preservation movement can command comparable support for diesel weekends and steam galas alike, is testament to the efforts by all volunteers and visitors - regardless of their preferred propulsion.

When I were a lad, you just got what you were given - one or two engines and be grateful....

 

[tbtc]

Whilst I respect your point of view I don't think you have a proper understanding of the preserved railways key markets. To a five year old child a diesel means very little. Show the same child a steam engine and things change very quickly

I dunno.

From my experience of kids at that age, something big and noisy is impressive.

Fire engines are amazing for a large number of five year olds, for example. Its not just about steam engines.

 

[Bob Ames]

There is however a Question that needs to be asked here as to the legality of our hobby being scrapped, yes these companies legally own the locos and can scrap them if they want, but what they don’t have is the right to do is destroy some ones hobby.

On that basis, I should have sued (or rather, my parents should have sued, since I was only 12 at the time) my high school headmaster, who thought attending school was more important than spending quality time in rail yards or spotting at stations! His ultimatum that I would be expelled if I was caught spotting at Manchester Piccadilly during a school day (again) decimated my spotting 'career'! Yes, I was legally required to attend school, but they had no right to destroy my hobby!

 

[Condor7]

Bah, I've been told off enough times already lol.

While I don't doubt you I am amazed, and if any moderators are reading this I would appreciate there comments.

On this forum, Tom from Realtraintimes is often on here informing us of changes and future developements, as is Mark from Freightmaster, and someone most months promotes Traction magazine by highlighting the latest issue, so why are you being picked on, especially as the last two mentioned are commercial operations.

Personally I would be very disappointed if any of the above were curtailed, as they are very useful information.

I will be interested in moderators views.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I dunno.

From my experience of kids at that age, something big and noisy is impressive.

Fire engines are amazing for a large number of five year olds, for example. Its not just about steam engines.

When my children were growing up (they are now into their mid to late teens) the trains that would take us into Waterloo would hold their attention for no more than a few seconds. However, a steam engine was different for a number of reasons; they could see moving parts, it emitted smoke, made them jump if the safety valves went off and they could relate it to Thomas The Tank Engine. Years later even my two teenage daughters will stop and wave at a steam train despite having no real interest in trains.

My 19 year old son is a volunteer on a local preserved railway and yet has no interest in today's railway. However his interest in steam engines developed into an interest in engineering and he's now studying Mechanical Engineering at Nottingham University.

With regard to a five year olds fascination with Fire Engines, well there are a few reasons for this which makes them stand out from a Class 37. It's red, often has a ladder (children love climbing), Fire Engines often attend school fete's and more than anything else, Fireman Sam! Not to mention that a lot of young mum's have a thing for Firemen!

 

[Johnuk123]

On a trip to a preserved line with my 2 young grandchildren both under 5 one a girl and one a boy both of them liked all the trains but steam was the one that really got them excited.

I think it's a combination of the big moving driving wheels, the smell, the smoke, the whistle and noise.
Basically the same thing that got me hooked in the 1960's.

 

[Antman]

On a trip to a preserved line with my 2 young grandchildren both under 5 one a girl and one a boy both of them liked all the trains but steam was the one that really got them excited.

I think it's a combination of the big moving driving wheels, the smell, the smoke, the whistle and noise.
Basically the same thing that got me hooked in the 1960's.

My two year old grandaughter loves any sort of train, watching them or riding on them........I'm sure she'll grow out of it

 

[Muzer]

While I don't doubt you I am amazed, and if any moderators are reading this I would appreciate there comments.

On this forum, Tom from Realtraintimes is often on here informing us of changes and future developements, as is Mark from Freightmaster, and someone most months promotes Traction magazine by highlighting the latest issue, so why are you being picked on, especially as the last two mentioned are commercial operations.

Personally I would be very disappointed if any of the above were curtailed, as they are very useful information.

I will be interested in moderators views.

I'm obviously not a moderator, but I would use common sense - if it's vaguely relevant to a discussion or it's advertising some new feature that people might be interested in, I wouldn't see why it should be disallowed. If it's just constant blatant plugs with no context, that's when posts should be deleted. IMHO.

 

[DeeGee]

If a young family visits a preserved railway they are looking to ride behind a steam locomotive, not a Class 37. This is why railways would rather spend their money restoring and repairing steam locos. Yes I agree that there will always be a place for diesels but steam is quite rightly the priority for restoration money.

I'm a young family!

We have a preserved railway near us and I take my son. he likes to ride on the carriage - he's not bothered about the traction.

It's seven quid each for me and the wife, and four quid for the boy.

For a pound more each I can have a diesel-hauled day out to Market Rasen. I'm not interested in the railways for anything other than transportation, so sitting on someting diesel-hauled for a mile doesn't appeal. If I'm paying money I'd rather do something different - hence why if I'm going to travel on a train with no particular aim I'd rather go by steam.

 

[wensley]

To me it's the diversity of this hobby that makes it what it is, I can't 'get' wagon spotting or accumulating mileage for example, but I'm sure that there are plenty of people who don't see the point behind taking photos!

I think there are plenty of young people involved in the hobby, I would still fall into the 'young' enthusiasts category, but that still covers a pretty broad spectrum! Sort of 5 years ago or a bit more I can now see what an excitable, annoying little twerp I must have seemed to some of the more seasoned individuals - it makes me just cringe thinking about it My personal opinion is that you don't really achieve anything by standing on a platform end taking numbers, I have found the most rewarding part of the hobby teaching myself how to take photos of what can be a very difficult subject matter. Now I enjoy getting around some of the nicest parts of the country, walking or biking into the middle of nowhere and waiting for that one shot.

I'm in a bit of a different boat to some, as I also work in the rail industry, and the role I'm currently in means I do like to observe what's going on around me or my train when I'm travelling or on stations - especially when it comes to delays and regulation And there is certainly nowhere better than a railway station for people watching!

I think there is actually more challenge to the hobby now than ever before, if you want to photograph something 'unusual' or heritage you tend to have to travel and I love trying to get a decent working, at a location where the light is right, with the sun blazing away! This kind of approach tends to mean I'm missing stuff now as I am getting steadily fussier and wanting the sun to shine. I don't know how everybody else approaches railway photography, but I am very much a perfectionist and the train is only a very small part of the overall image, I do quite often wonder why I spend so much time waiting to instantly delete the results - if you do it you do it right as far as I'm concerned now!

That probably sounds like a load of random rambling but that's how I see the hobby at the moment

 

[TrainBoy98]

In reference to the posts about a railway app, please see this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87080

 

[Beveridges]

My guess is the hobby has about 15/20 years left at the most before it goes into serious decline.
It is (as far as I can see, and I am prepared to be corrected on this) supported by mostly gentleman in their later years. Myself being one of them.
We were the train spotters of the 50's and 60's when platforms and line side always had a healthy group of boys pursuing the hobby.
Now those same ones are what you find on most platforms and line side today.

I think your right. The average age of a Spotting gang at Doncaster nowadays is about 65, maybe even 70.

( I chose Doncaster as my example because it probably draws the biggest crowds nowadays, but you can say it about anywhere )

I think it was the Class 66's that turned away most of the spotters. They have replaced most of the interesting locos and workings that used to run. In the 90's, anything could turn up! Nowadays its mostly 66's, apart from a handful of predictable workings that can produce other traction.

Then we also have boring modern Units that have replaced nearly every loco-hauled passenger train in the country.

There also seems to be less freight on the rails now than there used to be. I don't know about anyone else, but when I used to turn up at a busy "freight hotspot", there was rarely a dull moment. There was about 3X more freight trains than there is now, and loco-hauled passenger trains could fill in any gaps of inactivity at some locations. Nowadays I feel like I can be waiting for ages between freights & locos, and to be honest, any lengthy gaps are boring as hell and are not do-able if your on your own.

Real-time freight tracking devices such as RTT have re-activated my interest in the hobby somewhat, meaning I'm not stood there anymore like a dick head waiting for something that isn't going to turn up, and has allowed me to be at the right place at the right time, and it's encouraging me to go out more.

But the main reason the hobby is not getting any newcomers is there is not much that can get people into it anymore. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, it was the impressive sight and sound of a 37 thrashing past me that got me started. The older traction is/was spectacular to watch and listen to. I somehow doubt a multiple unit or a 66 is going to get too many people "into it", they are just too mundane.

My interests in railways have expanded much beyond "37s and thrash" over the years, but that is what got me started.

I've not read the entire thread yet as I don't have the time so maybe these points have been raised already.

 

[AlexS]

Real time trains does occasionally produce some interest for me as a platform bert, because it's not infallible

Every now and then I'll give the local spotters or polite visitors some gen off the computer. On one occasion very recently I was talking to a chap who told me he had no need for any of this as he could look at RTT on the phone.

As it happened, I knew a certain 37 was due to turn up in a few minutes hauling a certain teapot device. I chose not to say anything and my suspicions were proved correct - it hadn't downloaded on to RTT (I dunno if it was VSTP or something like that) and said chap bellowed like an ox when the snout poked round the corner, and ran like his arse was on fire up the platform to try and get a picture - only to get bowled out by a HST.

I just said 'I thought you knew everything that was coming through here', chuckled to myself and wandered off.

 

[Beveridges]

As it happened, I knew a certain 37 was due to turn up in a few minutes hauling a certain teapot device. I chose not to say anything and my suspicions were proved correct - it hadn't downloaded on to RTT (I dunno if it was VSTP or something like that) and said chap bellowed like an ox when the snout poked round the corner, and ran like his arse was on fire up the platform to try and get a picture - only to get bowled out by a HST

There has only been one occasion when I have known a train turn up that was not on RTT, strangely enough it was a working similar to the one in your example, a convoy between two preserved lines, though mine was all diesels, no Tea Pots involved!

But apart from that RTT has been great - almost like a mobile version of TRUST.

Before RTT it was guesswork and in 2013 there just isn't enough of interest to just turn up somewhere and "hope for the best" without knowing what is running. In the 90's and even early 00's you could just "turn up" at the busier places any time with no proper gen and get good results, but you certainly can't now!

 

[Temple Meads]

Before RTT it was guesswork and in 2013 there just isn't enough of interest to just turn up somewhere and "hope for the best" without knowing what is running. In the 90's and even early 00's you could just "turn up" at the busier places with no gen and get good results, but you certainly can't now!

I don't totally agree with that - Newport and Eastleigh usually always turn up something of interest in a three hour session, and plenty of passing "regular" freights - although probably depends on your definition of "interesting"!

Down here though, they are the only two places I'd specifically go out for freight without checking what's due first.