Does the UK have the largest third rail network in Europe/world?

[zuriblue]

I know they used electro-diesels when they ran into Grand Central - do they still do that into Penn?

Yes. Diesel traction isn't permitted in NYC.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes. Diesel traction isn't permitted in NYC.

How enlightened - then the Republican Party has had no great sway there for decades. Hope that can still be said after this autumn.

 

[najaB]

How enlightened - then the Republican Party has had no great sway there for decades. Hope that can still be said after this autumn.

Hate to spoil a joke with facts, but if memory serves correct NYC had two Republican mayors in the last couple of decades.

 

[D1009]

Just a small correction to the OP, Paris isn't home to the only third rail use in France. The metre-gauge Cerdagne line (better known as Le petit train jaune or The Little Yellow Train, is electrified at 650v DC and runs from Villefranche-en-Conflent to Latour-de-Carol-Envietg on the Spanish border (the only place where standard, Iberian and Metre-gauge routes meet). The line also includes the highest station in France at Bolquère-Eyne. I'd thoroughly recommend a ride if you get the chance.

Also highly recommended:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Gervais–Vallorcine_railway
850v dc side contact.

 

[Busaholic]

Hate to spoil a joke with facts, but if memory serves correct NYC had two Republican mayors in the last couple of decades.

I was aware of that and, even before that, they had one of the most popular mayors ever anywhere in John Lindsay, as an antidote to Tricky Dicky, but I'd still say the Republicans as a whole have had virtually no leverage in NYC since the days of Eisenhower. Trump, however, if he secured the presidency (and I sincerely hope, pray even, he doesn't) might change all that.

 

[snowball]

Yes. Diesel traction isn't permitted in NYC.

Hence the Manhattan Transfer.

 

[yorksrob]

Hence the Manhattan Transfer.

Chanson d'amour (ra ta ta ta ta)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Hate to spoil a joke with facts, but if memory serves correct NYC had two Republican mayors in the last couple of decades.

Including a very popular Rudy Giuliani.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Including a very popular Rudy Giuliani.

Though his popularity varies depending on who you ask!

 

[AM9]

Though his popularity varies depending on who you ask!

As does Boris Johnson,s, but what has that got to do with 3rd rail?

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed Grand Central was able to be built because the tracks were electrified, the money made from selling the airrights above the platforms and tracks being very lucrative

The US was a pioneer in electric railways, hence much of the American involvement in the London Underground at the turn of the 20th century

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the SWML, 100 odd miles (all the way Weymouth-Waterloo), that's got to be one of the longest 3rd rail lines anywhere even when including subways/metros

 

[contrex]

They also had an extra-large luggage van area (with a small window between the double doors and the passenger section), which made them easy to identify once on the southern.

The imediate giveaway was the headcode window, smaller than on the EPBs supplied new to the Southern Region. Not to mention the unit numbers, 5781 - 5795 (later 6281 - 6295).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's the SWML, 100 odd miles (all the way Weymouth-Waterloo), that's got to be one of the longest 3rd rail lines anywhere even when including subways/metros

142 I believe, the same distance roughly as London to Crewe.

 

[mr_jrt]

OLE in the tunnels, changeover at Wimbledon, existing DC on the SW.

Certainly initially, agreed. If there are any branches or lines that end up CR2-only though then I'd imagine there would be a good case for some small-scale conversions.

 

[OxtedL]

Yes. Diesel traction isn't permitted in NYC.

I don't think that's quite correct - there is an unelectrified branch used by passenger trains down the West side of Manhattan, for example.

What does seem to be true is that diesel trains are required to use electric power with Grand Central and Penn terminals, because they are enclosed and providing adequate ventilation would be too difficult. The passenger diesel locos that run this way typically have third rail shoes for this purpose. I think the whole of Penn is dual overhead/third rail electrified, for the other routes it serves.

The third rail networks running out of each (Metro-North's Hudson/Harlem services, and Long Island respectively, both of which are only partially electrified) actually use different collection methods - bottom and top contact respectively. They represent a lot of miles between them, but not as extensive a network as the UK.

 

[jopsuk]

on the Long Island Railroad, do the loco hauled trains use the DC for the entire extent of the electrification, or just for the approaches through the tunnels? Impression I've got from reading articles is that it's the latter for some reason?

 

[edwin_m]

Do the LIRR diesels even go into Penn? I seem to remember they either finish up at a terminus in Brooklyn or everyone has to change onto an electric somewhere further out.

 

[Busaholic]

Including a very popular Rudy Giuliani.

Yes, individuals and not the party - much the same could be said for Boris J, many people who voted for him might never vote for a Tory again in their lives. I even happen to notice that one Donald J Trump hardly came up through the party system.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I believe there is one ex tyneside EPB still in existence and if i recall correctly, its in Coventry

 

[HSTEd]

It would have been interesting if the 6.7kV 25Hz system used by one south london railway (can't remember which off the top of my head) had been more succcesful than the 750V third rail system.

That might have concievably have become the overall national standard.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe there is one ex tyneside EPB still in existence and if i recall correctly, its in Coventry

There is. Quite a remarkable survivor, given how little suburban electric stock has gone into preservation.

 

[contrex]

It would have been interesting if the 6.7kV 25Hz system used by one south london railway (can't remember which off the top of my head) had been more succcesful than the 750V third rail system.

That might have concievably have become the overall national standard.

The pre-Grouping London, Brighton and South Coast Railway electrified most of its suburban network and had plans for Brighton, Worthing, Eastbourne, Newhaven and Seaford, and Epsom and Oxted when Grouping happened. I often wonder what the Southern would have been like if it had been chosen over 3rd rail. SUBs with pantographs? I think they would have needed to up the voltage eventually and go over to 50 Hz (the 11 Kv distribution system to the trackside substations was 25 Hz until the 1950s I believe). At least they would have had the gantries etc in place for upgrades to take place.

 

[HSTEd]

I think they would have needed to up the voltage eventually and go over to 50 Hz (the 11 Kv distribution system to the trackside substations was 25 Hz until the 1950s I believe). At least they would have had the gantries etc in place for upgrades to take place.

I am not so sure - 25Hz has advantages in that it allows universal motor use which means that you can do regenerative braking with AC using technology from before the war.
Moving to 50Hz would sacrifice that advantage and not really gain much that I can think of.
After all you would already have the distribution system in place for the effective single phase load represented by traction systems.

Amtrak tried to convert to 60Hz in the US in the 90s and gave up when it realised how much it would cost.

 

[contrex]

25Hz has advantages in that it allows universal motor use which means that you can do regenerative braking with AC using technology from before the war.

Universal motors are less than ideal. They are inefficient and have a lot of disadvantages from a maintenance point of view, brushes and commutators, sparking, need for laminated pole pieces and are noisy. Also the low-frequency transformers carried on locos/emus are heavier than 50 Hz ones. The Germans, already heavily into 16 2/3 Hz, electrified the Hollenthal line at 20 kV 50 Hz in 1936 with rectifier locos having DC motors for reasons like those, (also it would eliminate rotary converter stations) and the French who occupied that part of Germany after the war, were impressed. A British party including Riddles and Warder saw the first French line in the ealy 50s. The rest is history. having said all that, I love the sound of the preserved Swiss Crocodiles.

 

[HSTEd]

The early mercury rectifier locomotives hardly distinguished themselves in the reliability stakes either however.

It seems likely that any extensive 25Hz system would have survived simply by virtue of being expensive to replace

 

[edwin_m]

The early mercury rectifier locomotives hardly distinguished themselves in the reliability stakes either hower.

It seems likely that any extensive 25Hz system would have survived simply by virtue of being expensive to replace

May well have been. The only alternative to low frequency AC at the time it was introduced would have been DC at a lower voltage (more substations and greater resistance losses) or some complicated three-phase system. The advent of reliable rectifiers that could be used on train (particularly semiconductor ones in the 1960s) meant that AC could be supplied at the grid frequency, which removed some complication but probably not enough to make it worth the hassle of converting the older systems. As far as I know Switzerland/Germany/Austria have no plans to convert, although presumably any new high speed projects are 25kV 50Hz as per the TSI.

 

[30907]

As far as I know Switzerland/Germany/Austria have no plans to convert, although presumably any new high speed projects are 25kV 50Hz as per the TSI.

No, they're at the existing voltage, not surprisingly as 25kV-only traction would be unable to reach them. I presume this will apply to the proposed Dresden-Usti nad Labem line too, which will connect to the DC part of the Czech network.

 

[zuriblue]

Do the LIRR diesels even go into Penn? I seem to remember they either finish up at a terminus in Brooklyn or everyone has to change onto an electric somewhere further out.

The times I encountered them most diesel hauled LIRR trains terminated at Jamaica station in Queens and passengers transferred to EMUs.

There are some direct trains from the Port Jefferson, Oyster bay and Montauk branches which are diesel hauled but switch over to third rail through the tunnels as diesel power is prohibited there. The trains are hauled by dual mode EMD DM30AC locos, LIRR have 23 of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_DE30AC_and_DM30AC