Dominic Cummings alleged breach of lockdown rules discussion

[Puffing Devil]

Is that her actual account though or one created by an over enthusiastic journo filling in gaps?

It seems the reports of him making multiple trips North were false. At least I assume they were as there’s no mention of them now.

That's her account from her article in the Spectator.

And referenced in the "i" here: https://inews.co.uk/news/mary-wakef...ings-wife-coronavirus-story-statement-2865961

Most people who have paid attention to this sorry debacle know about the Spectator article, unless you've been spending too long reading the Mail before it finally turned?

 

[Domh245]

Is that her actual account though or one created by an over enthusiastic journo filling in gaps?

It seems the reports of him making multiple trips North were false. At least I assume they were as there’s no mention of them now.

Her actual account, as published in the spectator (aus version linked so you can actually read it: https://www.spectator.com.au/2020/04/an-infectious-uncertainty/ )

Pulling out the relevant section:

My husband did rush home to look after me. He’s an extremely kind man, whatever people assume to the contrary. But 24 hours later, he said ‘I feel weird’ and collapsed. I felt breathless, sometimes achy, but Dom couldn’t get out of bed. Day in, day out for ten days he lay doggo with a high fever and spasms that made the muscles lump and twitch in his legs. He could breathe, but only in a limited, shallow way.

After a week, we reached peak corona uncertainty. Day six is a turning point, I was told: that’s when you either get better or head for ICU. But was Dom fighting off the bug or was he heading for a ventilator? Who knew? I sat on his bed staring at his chest, trying to count his breaths per minute. The little oxygen reader we’d bought on Amazon indicated that he should be in hospital, but his lips weren’t blue and he could talk in full sentences, such as: ‘Please stop staring at my chest, sweetheart.’

 

[bspahh]

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1265704622951411714 says:

A potentially viable PR strategy would have been:
1) Admission of wrongdoing;
2) Apology + resignation offer;
3) PM publicly chastises but refuses to accept resignation;
4) Message becomes: "Time to move on."

I'm not sure Step 4 works if you do opposite of 1 and skip 2 and 3.

 

[Swanny200]

I have been glued to this story since mumblings started doing the rounds on Friday evening. There are a lot of questions to be answered here, but unfortunately even if Dominic Cummings had been seen with a loaded gun in hand having gone on a killing spree, Johnson and the cabinet of MP's that love him, like Gove will make sure that he doesn't get sacked. The issue is this, his wife's family live not too far away, her brother and Sister-In-Law live about 10 minutes from their house, the rumour is that their son has Autism and needs to see the same faces etc... (as someone on the spectrum I can understand that, but how often do they visit Durham for that regular contact).

The government advice was to use your local authority hubs if you had symptoms of Covid-19 and had concerns about dealing with a young child, Cummings chose to ignore that advice and go to Durham. He claims he never stopped at all during that journey and got to his Mum and Dad's farm (not really as he part owns it and managed to secure a large EU farming subsidy on it) about midnight, this means roughly a 4-5 hour journey, unless he was speeding of course. This can easily be checked of course, Durham Police should be able to apply for ANPR data for the whole journey and if there are any time discrepencies in-between ANPR "hits" that cannot be explained for traffic etc... Then obviously he lied and then the next question would be so if he lied about this, what else has he lied to not just the public, but police about?. The reason I mention this is I have 3 children, 2 of which are on the Autistic Spectrum, you cannot tell me that a 4 year old in a car seat on a 4-5 hour journey did not ask for a pee once? OK he could have put the kid in a Pull-Up but maybe not.

Oh and does a Petrol powered Range Rover do 500 miles to a tank?

He didn't tell Johnson and when he spoke to Johnson days later, they never spoke about Cummings, or his family's health, or where he was, they just spoke "shop", I find that hard to believe from someone who is supposed to be a good friend as well as your boss.

The trip to Barnard castle... Well most people here know it is against the law and for Gove, Hancock and Raab to come out and make it out that it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do is just plain stupid, I bet if you went out in the car to "test your eyesight" and got stopped by the local constabulary and cited that reason, you would be up in court very quickly/
It was also his wife's birthday incidentally, his mother's birthday is around the same time.

The fact is now that over 40 Tory MP's are calling for his head, numerous others are staying tight lipped but making private musings to colleagues that he should go, but yet the cabinet are sticking by him is precisely what we should expect from this government, deny everything and hope it goes away.

I could go on... The breaches of the SPAD code of conduct, the Spectator column, the blog posts about Coronavirus that didn't exist before Sunday evening that have all of a sudden been added for effect to confirm his statement that he has been warning about pandemics and coronaviruses in particuar.

 

[bspahh]

Oh and does a Petrol powered Range Rover do 500 miles to a tank?

So long as it did 340 miles (London to Durham, 10 miles for to and from the hospital to collect his wife and son, and 60 for the Barnard Castle trip), then he would have been fine. Stopping for fuel would have been serious whilst he was in the quarantine period, and unwise on a non-essential journey.

However, the journey from Durham to London was allowed as he was going back to his home, and he would have been out of quarantine by then.

<Edited> He said that he stopped for fuel on the way back in answer to one of the questions, 1:43:25 into the press conference https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000jxm7/bbc-news-special-25052020

 

[kermit]

I have been glued to this story since mumblings started doing the rounds on Friday evening. There are a lot of questions to be answered here, but unfortunately even if Dominic Cummings had been seen with a loaded gun in hand having gone on a killing spree, Johnson and the cabinet of MP's that love him, like Gove will make sure that he doesn't get sacked. The issue is this, his wife's family live not too far away, her brother and Sister-In-Law live about 10 minutes from their house, the rumour is that their son has Autism and needs to see the same faces etc... (as someone on the spectrum I can understand that, but how often do they visit Durham for that regular contact).

The government advice was to use your local authority hubs if you had symptoms of Covid-19 and had concerns about dealing with a young child, Cummings chose to ignore that advice and go to Durham. He claims he never stopped at all during that journey and got to his Mum and Dad's farm (not really as he part owns it and managed to secure a large EU farming subsidy on it) about midnight, this means roughly a 4-5 hour journey, unless he was speeding of course. This can easily be checked of course, Durham Police should be able to apply for ANPR data for the whole journey and if there are any time discrepencies in-between ANPR "hits" that cannot be explained for traffic etc... Then obviously he lied and then the next question would be so if he lied about this, what else has he lied to not just the public, but police about?. The reason I mention this is I have 3 children, 2 of which are on the Autistic Spectrum, you cannot tell me that a 4 year old in a car seat on a 4-5 hour journey did not ask for a pee once? OK he could have put the kid in a Pull-Up but maybe not.

Oh and does a Petrol powered Range Rover do 500 miles to a tank?

He didn't tell Johnson and when he spoke to Johnson days later, they never spoke about Cummings, or his family's health, or where he was, they just spoke "shop", I find that hard to believe from someone who is supposed to be a good friend as well as your boss.

The trip to Barnard castle... Well most people here know it is against the law and for Gove, Hancock and Raab to come out and make it out that it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do is just plain stupid, I bet if you went out in the car to "test your eyesight" and got stopped by the local constabulary and cited that reason, you would be up in court very quickly/
It was also his wife's birthday incidentally, his mother's birthday is around the same time.

The fact is now that over 40 Tory MP's are calling for his head, numerous others are staying tight lipped but making private musings to colleagues that he should go, but yet the cabinet are sticking by him is precisely what we should expect from this government, deny everything and hope it goes away.

I could go on... The breaches of the SPAD code of conduct, the Spectator column, the blog posts about Coronavirus that didn't exist before Sunday evening that have all of a sudden been added for effect to confirm his statement that he has been warning about pandemics and coronaviruses in particuar.

Thank you for taking the time to set out such a clear and cogent account of this sorry saga. Ever since the emergence of the Trumpian era of flat-out unapologetic lying, it has felt to me as if the only way through is to place the truth firmly on record, so we are not "gaslit" by our own leaders.

 

[Swanny200]

So long as it did 340 miles (London to Durham, 10 miles for to and from the hospital to collect his wife and son, and 60 for the Barnard Castle trip), then he would have been fine. Stopping for fuel would have been serious whilst he was in the quarantine period, and unwise on a non-essential journey.

However, the journey from Durham to London was allowed as he was going back to his home, and he would have been out of quarantine by then. I think he said that he stopped for fuel on the way back in answer to one of the questions.

True, but then were we not still at that time, in a situation where we were told regardless of whether or not we had symptoms, to effectively stay off the road, had he been stopped near Leeds for instance and told an officer "Yes I'm on my way to Durham to London" even for work, would he not got told to go back, for a government who seem to do briefings on skype all the time during this crisis, would the better option not have been to do what we were all be told and work from home if possible, what need does he have to be at no 10 when the advice was stay at home apart from to inflate his ego and bark orders at people.

 

[NeilCr]

In terms of whether or not the son is autistic this is from the Guardians media editor

Jamie Retweeted




Jim Waterson

@jimwaterson

"I have no insight into other people's health and don't want it... but for journalistic record the source for 'autism' claim appears to be a now-deleted Twitter account who says they heard it on LBC yday between 7am and 7.25am. Just listened back and there was no mention on LBC'

 

[bspahh]

True, but then were we not still at that time, in a situation where we were told regardless of whether or not we had symptoms, to effectively stay off the road, had he been stopped near Leeds for instance and told an officer "Yes I'm on my way to London from Durham" even for work, would he not got told to go back, for a government who seem to do briefings on skype all the time during this crisis, would the better option not have been to do what we were all be told and work from home if possible, what need does he have to be at no 10 when the advice was stay at home apart from to inflate his ego and bark orders at people.

The law at that time http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/2020-03-26 says "During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse." One of the reasonable excuses is "to travel for the purposes of work [...] where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;"

On his journey from London to Durham, he could have been told that his reason to leave his home was not valid and that he should turn around, but once he was living in Durham, and had to work in London, travelling was OK.

 

[Swanny200]

I do agree with that partly, but then the same advice which is still in place now, is work at home if you can... Dominic Cummings can work from home or his father's cottage in Durham, all you would need is a laptop and wifi access, his parents are not broke, I live in the area and the internet is pretty good round here so to me, that is not a good enough reason to undertake a 200 and odd mile journey with a 4 year old and "potentially dodgy eyesight" that could have happened again halfway down the A1/M1

 

[DelW]

Hopeless Hancock is being reported by the BBC as having said today, apparently with a straight face, that it is everyone's "civic duty" to co-operate with the test-and-trace system from Thursday, and to self isolate at home for 14 days if told that they have been in contact with someone who has tested positive.

Evidently the alternative of driving the length of the country to stay with relatives, and enjoying a day trip to a local beauty spot, is still only available to senior members of the government.

 

[Domh245]

Oh and does a Petrol powered Range Rover do 500 miles to a tank?

It'd be impressive if it did, but they won't. A Diesel powered discovery sport (as he has...) will however tie up with his story.

Which SUVs have the best real-world fuel economy?

We've used What Car?'s True MPG calculator to work out how Dominic Cummings' Land Rover can go before it empties its fuel tank - and reveal seven rival mid-size SUVs that are more frugal.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

• We calculate the gallons of diesel needed to Mr Cummings to drive 264 miles
• Calculations suggests a journey from North London to Durham could be completed with half a tank of fuel in his Land Rover Discovery Sport
• Using real-world economy figures, a 528-mile round trip would have been impossible without stopping for fuel

The revelation that Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief adviser, drove from Islington in London to County Durham during lockdown restrictions with his wife suffering from coronavirus has been headline-grabbing news since Friday.

Some have questioned if the 264-mile journey was feasible in his diesel Land Rover Discovery Sport without having to stop for fuel after Mr Cummings claimed during a press conference on Monday that he may have only filled up once during the return trip to the family home in the capital.

We've used What Car?'s True MPG calculator to work out how far his Land Rover can go before it empties its fuel tank - and reveal seven mid-size SUVs with the more frugal engines in real-world driving conditions that are best for long-haul drives outside of lockdown.

Cummings' car used for the 264-mile trek north was his 2019 Land Rover Discovery Sport diesel.

The seven-seat SUV has a 2.0-litre engine linked to a mild-hybrid drivetrain, a 9-speed automatic gearbox and four wheel drive.

His D180 model is an R-Dynamic HSE specification, which costs from £48,300 in showrooms today.

The Discovery Sport has a 65-litre (14.3-gallon) fuel tank and the official fuel economy based on a lab test is a claimed 38.9mpg - though What Car?'s real-world test found the figure would be closer to 33.6mpg when driving on the road.

We calculated that in order to cover 264 miles with the official fuel economy statistics of 38.9mpg, the Land Rover Discovery Sport would only use approximately 6.8 gallons of fuel from its 14.3-gallon tank.

Using the What Car? True MPG figure of 33.6mpg, the trip to Durham from the capital could be completed using 7.9 gallons.

That means, even with around half a tank, Mr Cummings would have been able to drive to his parents' home without pulling over for fuel - though only he will know how much diesel was in his Land Rover before he set off.

However, would Mr Cummings have been able to drive all the way home again without visiting a filling stations?

A simple calculations shows it would have been very difficult for Boris Johnson's chief aide to complete the 528-mile round trip back without needing to stop.

With Land Rover's official 38.9mpg claim, just 0.7 gallons of fuel would remain in a brimmed 14.3-gallon fuel tank after a drive of that duration - without taking into account other trips completed between the two journeys, such as driving to Barnard Castle to test his eyesight.

Using What Car?'s more realistic fuel economy figure, the Discovery Sport would need 15.7 gallons of diesel to go from Islington to Durham and back.

That means Mr Cummings would need to pump an extra 1.4 gallons into his car to prevent him and his family from being stranded on the side of the road.

 

[fgwrich]

Further to the main row over Boris's backing of Cummings, we now have another row breaking out with Emily Maitlis's replacement from the BBC's Newsnight after presenting what the BBC claims as a breach of it's impartiality rules.

Emily Maitlis replaced for Newsnight episode after Cummings remarks

Katie Razzall stepped in after BBC reprimanded host over ‘breach of impartiality rules’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd be concerned if his family ended up in an ambulance and hospital, where they could spread the infection that they picked up in London, to Durham.

Do I take it that Durham was a relatively Covid-19-free enclave, where an incoming family could introduce this virus? Your mention of the ambulance above certainly asks the question of how ambulances and their staff who transport people suffering from Covid-19 have laid-down instructions that govern the transportation of those infected contaminees.

 

[bspahh]

Do I take it that Durham was a relatively Covid-19-free enclave, where an incoming family could introduce this virus? Your mention of the ambulance above certainly asks the question of how ambulances and their staff who transport people suffering from Covid-19 have laid-down instructions that govern the transportation of those infected contaminees.

This graph is from https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1265576249591844865

It shows a sharp increase in cases in County Durham in early April.

If they had stayed at home in London, there would have been less chance of passing on an infection to an ambulance in Durham.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This graph is from https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1265576249591844865

It shows a sharp increase in cases in County Durham in early April.

If they had stayed at home in London, there would have been less chance of passing on an infection to an ambulance in Durham.

Does anyone know what the full procedures are taken to deep clean ambulances after transporting Covid-19 affected people and the time taken to do this, which would cause the said ambulance to be out of commission? How are ambulance staff treated when they have transported such affected people?

 

[NorthOxonian]

This graph is from https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1265576249591844865

It shows a sharp increase in cases in County Durham in early April.

If they had stayed at home in London, there would have been less chance of passing on an infection to an ambulance in Durham.

That's a spurious connection. County Durham, along with Gateshead, Sunderland, and several other neighbouring authorities have been badly hit since early in the crisis. I don't think Dominic Cummings is responsible for dozens of extra new cases every day. Bear in mind that Durham city itself is just one small part of the county - he won't have been spreading the virus in Consett, Peterlee, or any of the countless other towns and villages around there.

 

[westv]

According to Wiki, Durham is the 7th most populated district in England.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a spurious connection. County Durham, along with Gateshead, Sunderland, and several other neighbouring authorities have been badly hit since early in the crisis. I don't think Dominic Cummings is responsible for dozens of extra new cases every day. Bear in mind that Durham city itself is just one small part of the county - he won't have been spreading the virus in Consett, Peterlee, or any of the countless other towns and villages around there.

Correlation does not, as they say, imply causation. There's an amusing book on that.

 

[bspahh]

That's a spurious connection. County Durham, along with Gateshead, Sunderland, and several other neighbouring authorities have been badly hit since early in the crisis. I don't think Dominic Cummings is responsible for dozens of extra new cases every day. Bear in mind that Durham city itself is just one small part of the county - he won't have been spreading the virus in Consett, Peterlee, or any of the countless other towns and villages around there.

In late March, County Durham was not as badly hit by the virus as London.

I don't know if the Cummings family infected people when they were in Durham. I am sure they would not have done if they had stayed at home.

 

[Swanny200]

It'd be impressive if it did, but they won't. A Diesel powered discovery sport (as he has...) will however tie up with his story.

Which SUVs have the best real-world fuel economy?

We've used What Car?'s True MPG calculator to work out how Dominic Cummings' Land Rover can go before it empties its fuel tank - and reveal seven rival mid-size SUVs that are more frugal.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Apologies on that one, I have seen the picture of him driving a Discovery, but also one of him driving an Evoque, the thing that made me say petrol, was his insistence that he said he stopped for petrol in his interview, most people who drive diesel cars say diesel not petrol.

That's a spurious connection. County Durham, along with Gateshead, Sunderland, and several other neighbouring authorities have been badly hit since early in the crisis. I don't think Dominic Cummings is responsible for dozens of extra new cases every day. Bear in mind that Durham city itself is just one small part of the county - he won't have been spreading the virus in Consett, Peterlee, or any of the countless other towns and villages around there.

Sunderland and South Tyneside were coupled in one area and believe me it has been badly hit, some of it has been down to people ignoring advice and believe me, plenty more will do it now he is getting away with it.

 

[westv]

plenty more will do it now he is getting away with it.

When I was younger my mum would have answered with "If he jumped under a bus would you do that too?"

 

[NorthOxonian]

In late March, County Durham was not as badly hit by the virus as London.

I don't know if the Cummings family infected people when they were in Durham. I am sure they would not have done if they had stayed at home.

I don't see how one family would be responsible for hundreds or even thousands of cases over the course of a couple of weeks across what is one of our biggest counties. I'm not saying they didn't infect anyone, but being in close proximity to some of the worst affected boroughs in the country (like Gateshead, where I'm from) is probably far more responsible for the rise in cases.

 

[Swanny200]

When I was younger my mum would have answered with "If he jumped under a bus would you do that too?"

Or the ubiquitous jumped of a cliff. I have not been out of the house in 9 weeks, we self isolated a week before lockdown as 1 child has asthma and one of the others had a cough (just a cough), my father passed in November from cancer and had he still been here, this would have sent all our mental health off the scale. I can well understand people being irate with Cummings over this, I am one of them and I fear that we may hit a peak again sometime before July, unfortunately unless something is done about him now, the lockdown may not be as effective next time round.

 

[alex397]

Further to the main row over Boris's backing of Cummings, we now have another row breaking out with Emily Maitlis's replacement from the BBC's Newsnight after presenting what the BBC claims as a breach of it's impartiality rules.

Emily Maitlis replaced for Newsnight episode after Cummings remarks

Katie Razzall stepped in after BBC reprimanded host over ‘breach of impartiality rules’

www.theguardian.com

Maitlis his since publically stated that she was not 'replaced' but 'asked for the night off'.

Emily Maitlis: I asked for night off from BBC's Newsnight

Presenter Emily Maitlis had been told her remarks about Dominic Cummings breached BBC guidelines.

www.bbc.co.uk

It still stands though that then BBC thought she 'did not meet the required standards of due impartiality'.

I think she reflected the current mood of the nation pretty well!

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'm confused as according to a lot of people the BBC are so incredibly left wing and biased and yet they have pulled Maitlis up publicly and she has been reprimanded without pressure to do so from any other forms of media. How does that figure?

 

[nlogax]

I can well understand people being irate with Cummings over this, I am one of them and I fear that we may hit a peak again sometime before July, unfortunately unless something is done about him now, the lockdown may not be as effective next time round.

I may have been a bit wrong last week when I downplayed how much the general population cared about his actions. That said, despite all the massive amount of noise and heat coming from the media, the general public and from across the political spectrum, Cummings isn't and won't be going anywhere. Many are intent on that changing but it..just...won't. The PM is terrified of him. Cummings' lack of concern or worry about his own reputation is winding everyone up, and I actually think he enjoys it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or the ubiquitous jumped of a cliff. I have not been out of the house in 9 weeks, we self isolated a week before lockdown as 1 child has asthma and one of the others had a cough (just a cough), my father passed in November from cancer and had he still been here, this would have sent all our mental health off the scale. I can well understand people being irate with Cummings over this, I am one of them and I fear that we may hit a peak again sometime before July, unfortunately unless something is done about him now, the lockdown may not be as effective next time round.

The implications of the final part of your posting seems to imply that many of the general public would deliberately follow a herd instinct to cause harm to themselves should lockdown scenarios occur once again as part of a blindly felt act of lack of public disobedience for reasons you state above.

In that, you may very well be correct, using the referendum to decide "leave or remain" in the EC, where whole swathes of the electorate chose to vote "leave" as a riposte to Cameron.

 

[edwin_m]

The implications of the final part of your posting seems to imply that many of the general public would deliberately follow a herd instinct to cause harm to themselves should lockdown scenarios occur once again as part of a blindly felt act of lack of public disobedience for reasons you state above.

In that, you may very well be correct, using the referendum to decide "leave or remain" in the EC, where whole swathes of the electorate chose to vote "leave" as a riposte to Cameron.

I think you may be right in your second sentence but I feel the situation is slightly different from what you suggest in the first one. Many people are annoyed by the restrictions but have given the government the benefit of the doubt and followed them because they believe it is acting in everyone's best interests. Now many people will wonder why it's worth obeying the lockdown when an elite figure such as Cummings who was instrumental in introducing the rules it doesn't consider it necessary to follow them.

 

[Swanny200]

The implications of the final part of your posting seems to imply that many of the general public would deliberately follow a herd instinct to cause harm to themselves should lockdown scenarios occur once again as part of a blindly felt act of lack of public disobedience for reasons you state above.

In that, you may very well be correct, using the referendum to decide "leave or remain" in the EC, where whole swathes of the electorate chose to vote "leave" as a riposte to Cameron.

Funny you mention the word Herd, I know it wasn't in this context but one thing I forgot from my original post that needs addressed too, one of the reporters on Monday directly addressed Cummings about Herd immunity, he denied that he had any involvement and basically denied saying anything about herd immunity when there is video evidence of him at a conference talking to the contrary.

The fact that Gove (whom Cummings worked with) and Johnson both are unwilling to throw Cummings under the bus when they all have to others including each other in the last leadership election says that Cummings has some dirt on both of them, it is also good to point out that Mary Wakefield's brother Jack is the former director for the Firtash foundation, run by a Ukranian who when fighting extradition for bribery and racketeering charges to the US all of a sudden happened to find the evidence against Joe Biden and his son that launched the Trump-Ukraine scandal.

Oh and like a lot of the so called "elite" that Cummings wants to oust from parliament, his wife is the daughter of a Baron who is married to a Baroness by birth.

Also going back to this car lark, say when he went home that day to see his wife and then returned to no 10 (a few days before he got ill but could still have been carrying the virus) and then decided "Balls to this, I'm outta here", got in his car and realised that he only had half a tank, he would have had to fill it up, so here is a man showing no symptoms but a couple of days away of being stuck in bed "Doggo" for days on end going to a petrol station to fill up possibly carrying the virus, there is more to this than people infected in Durham, there are people who could have been infected by him in no10, Islington, and a few other places before he set off on his Quarantine holiday