Dominic Cummings alleged breach of lockdown rules discussion

[Kendalian]

Durham police advice before the weekend of the Barnard Castle journey

Police are asking motorists to respect government advice

www.durham.police.uk

Shame none of the journalists at yesterday's news conference had that in front of them...especially this bit -

"Overall, the majority of people are adhering to the guidance, however there are a few who still seem to think this doesn’t apply to them."

IMHO the trip to Barnard Castle was a jolly for his wife's birthday and he had the "misfortune" to be spotted by a busy-body type, hence he came up with the ludicrous story about testing his eyesight.

If his physical presence in Downing Street was so essential and he had any doubts about his fitness to drive, why did he not ask for an official vehicle to collect him? If he's so important to the Government surely that wouldn't have been too much trouble?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of his actions in travelling to Durham, once there, his family had to use both the local Ambulance service and hospital emergency dept, placing an extra burden on the local NHS. Wasn't that a key reason behind the Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives slogan?

Remind me again who wrote that slogan....

 

[westv]

Here's the advice from the time on what do if you actually display symptoms: http://web.archive.org/web/20200328...-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection

Some key bits of note:



There's also the page on social distancing here: http://web.archive.org/web/20200327...dance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others

Quite how you can take any of that and use it to justify his actions, I don't know

You missed out this bit from

[Withdrawn] [Withdrawn] Stay at home: guidance for households with possible or confirmed coronavirus (COVID-19) infection

www.gov.uk

If you are living with children
Keep following this advice to the best of your ability, however, we are aware that not all these measures will be possible.
What we have seen so far is that children with coronavirus (COVID-19) appear to be less severely affected. It is nevertheless important to do your best to follow this guidance.

 

[Geezertronic]

If you're not even allowed to go food shopping, I don't see how driving to the other end of the country could in any way be acceptable.

Where does it say you cannot (or could not) go food shopping?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The 80s pop singer Rick Astley has confirmed that he was contacted by Cummings, just prior to setting off for Durham, seeking advice. Apparently Astley said ‘you know the rules, and so do I’

 

[PupCuff]

The thing is, I can sort of accept an argument to say that as a father and a husband he allowed his feelings to overtake his better judgement; and if he'd have sat there and admitted that yes, we told everyone not to go and isolate anywhere other than your primary residence, we told everyone not to make unnecessary journeys, we had police officers actively stopping and fining people etc etc, but when push came to shove I put what I thought was best for my family first at the time which in hindsight was a massive error of judgement - I might just be able to say at least he's acknowledged that what he has done goes against his own advice and has recognised the sacrifices that the vast majority of the general public have made, putting the health of the wider population ahead of their own family's needs. But the sheer arrogance of him sitting there explaining that he didn't believe what he did was wrong and coming up with quite ridiculous statements like driving 30 miles or whatever each way to a pleasure spot to check his eyes still work is nothing short of offensive to any reasonable person.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Do you know what? (And this is addressed to the press and media as much as anyone else)

I don't care one jot about the activites of one man/family regardless of who he is. There are far more important things to concern us all in fact.
Ultimately, we each have individual responsibility to ourselves and to each other. If "we" were collectively as rational as we perhaps like to think we are, we would not need rules and/or guidance. We would only need to be informed that there is a potentially lethal and incurable contagion "in the wild", how it is believed to be transmitted, and we would all then react rationally to avoid either catching or spreading it.

This ought not to be about political point-scoring, not about individual freedoms, not about media headlines. And if we were remotely rational beings, we would not pay any attention to any of those things.

As it is, sadly, we do have a media frenzy; we do have both media and politicians still trying to compete and score points with each other. It's all so utterly, utterly puerile. I say to them all: get a grip on reality.

 

[Geezertronic]

If you squint the trip to Durham might have a reasonable excuse. I don't think it is but I can see why some would.

It's the Barnard Castle trip which to me is where it all falls apart. Both quite possibly legal but certain within the spirit of the guidelines. I just don't see how there can be any legitimate argument that he drove for sixty miles with wife and son in the car to "test his eyesight" and "check his driving" when the same thing could have been achieved by following the same (or at least similar) test as on a driving test ("can read that number plate from 20m away please") followed by a short solo drive around the locality (i.e. staying within walking distance if he needs to stop and also avoiding any population) of where he was then living.

Meanwhile we know that it was nice day and it was his wife's birthday and Barnard Castle (even if they didn't go into town) is a rather nice part of the world and perfect for a trip out for a bit of fresh air. Again, perhaps a reasonable excuse but certainly not within the guidelines where we were all being told to exercise locally and were guidance was issued that if you do travel then the exercise must be longer than the drive to the location.

His story about why he went to Durham I don't personally believe but I can agree to disagree on that. But Barnard Castle? I'm sorry but his explanation is just poppycock.

That is probably the best way of describing it so I thank you for your time in writing the above. I am neither in favour nor against the person in question, but there seems to be a lot of howling and emotive nonsense out there that anyone with just a passing glance cannot understand what is going on and why. It seems like those against are howling, and those for are supporting, both without actually being able to describe as you have done and without being able to actually define what rules were broken. Depending on whether they are supportive or against, depends on how this is being reported.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where does it say you cannot (or could not) go food shopping?

COVID-19 symptoms and what to do

Find out about the symptoms of COVID-19, what to do if you or your child has them and when to get medical help.

www.nhs.uk

specifically:

Can I leave my home if I'm self-isolating?
If you or someone you live with has symptoms of coronavirus:

• do not leave your home for any reason – if you need food or medicine, order it online or by phone, or ask someone to deliver it to your home
• do not have visitors in your home – including friends and family
• do any exercise at home – you can use your garden, if you have one

Basically, if you are symptomatic, the only way you leave your property is if an ambulance is needed to take you to hospital, or if your house is on fire. This might cause you some difficulties (e.g. you might have to eat food you're not used to, because all you can get delivered is pizzas, for example) but that is for the greater good.

 

[RT4038]

Do you know what? (And this is addressed to the press and media as much as anyone else)

I don't care one jot about the activites of one man/family regardless of who he is. There are far more important things to concern us all in fact.
Ultimately, we each have individual responsibility to ourselves and to each other. If "we" were collectively as rational as we perhaps like to think we are, we would not need rules and/or guidance. We would only need to be informed that there is a potentially lethal and incurable contagion "in the wild", how it is believed to be transmitted, and we would all then react rationally to avoid either catching or spreading it.

This ought not to be about political point-scoring, not about individual freedoms, not about media headlines. And if we were remotely rational beings, we would not pay any attention to any of those things.

As it is, sadly, we do have a media frenzy; we do have both media and politicians still trying to compete and score points with each other. It's all so utterly, utterly puerile. I say to them all: get a grip on reality.

Quite.

 

[The_Train]

Oh, so if you stumble on any question then you must be guilty! Are his eyes too close together too? Of course his notes were neatly typed up - he was giving a carefully prepared statement, to be followed by hostile questioning by top journalists, not a fireside chat. If you're not used to this sort of thing (as a politician would be) of course you will get confused and stumble.
Dominic Cummings is going to get a hard time because of his past attitude to journalists and MPs. Serve him right. But he is still a human being, and all of us do not think through how every action that they take will look with hindsight. If we want a culture of honesty and openness and humility then we need, as a society, to get away from the blame game. If you admit to making a mistake then you are to blame, and where there is blame there is a claim. Small wonder no-one is going to make that admission in the first place unless really forced to.

You're seriously telling me that what he was reading from was neatly typed up notes? I don't know about you but I've always been told that note making is all about short, sharp detail that is probably best bullet pointed. What I saw when he continually turned the pages over was blocks of paragraphs you would maybe associate with someone making a speech and it was clear that he read it word for word. I'm not suggesting that the stumbling makes him guilty but it doesn't look great when you have no issues with continuity when the words are written in front of you but struggle when that is not the case.

I take your point about him being a human and the fact that we will make decisions that lead to mistakes. What I have always said though is it isn't necessarily always about the mistake, it is about the reaction you make to the mistake. I always have a lot of respect for people who are man (and woman) enough to own up to a mistake, able to be apologetic and even remorseful where necessary, about a mistake compared to those who will just build lie upon lie onto a mistake to try and conceal things and to con people. And unfortunately Cummings has taken the latter approach, along with Johnson and Gove et al, and that is why the public have responded in the way they have.

 

[baz962]

Do you know what? (And this is addressed to the press and media as much as anyone else)

I don't care one jot about the activites of one man/family regardless of who he is. There are far more important things to concern us all in fact.
Ultimately, we each have individual responsibility to ourselves and to each other. If "we" were collectively as rational as we perhaps like to think we are, we would not need rules and/or guidance. We would only need to be informed that there is a potentially lethal and incurable contagion "in the wild", how it is believed to be transmitted, and we would all then react rationally to avoid either catching or spreading it.

This ought not to be about political point-scoring, not about individual freedoms, not about media headlines. And if we were remotely rational beings, we would not pay any attention to any of those things.

As it is, sadly, we do have a media frenzy; we do have both media and politicians still trying to compete and score points with each other. It's all so utterly, utterly puerile. I say to them all: get a grip on reality.

So what you are saying is we should of all socially distanced , stopped working , close our businesses etc , without being asked. And yet one of the few people that has access to the figures and fact's about the contagion , decided to not use his common sense and decency and act rationally.

 

[The_Train]

Do you know what? (And this is addressed to the press and media as much as anyone else)

I don't care one jot about the activites of one man/family regardless of who he is. There are far more important things to concern us all in fact.
Ultimately, we each have individual responsibility to ourselves and to each other. If "we" were collectively as rational as we perhaps like to think we are, we would not need rules and/or guidance. We would only need to be informed that there is a potentially lethal and incurable contagion "in the wild", how it is believed to be transmitted, and we would all then react rationally to avoid either catching or spreading it.

This ought not to be about political point-scoring, not about individual freedoms, not about media headlines. And if we were remotely rational beings, we would not pay any attention to any of those things.

As it is, sadly, we do have a media frenzy; we do have both media and politicians still trying to compete and score points with each other. It's all so utterly, utterly puerile. I say to them all: get a grip on reality.

So you are quite happy to just ignore the fact that one of the most powerful people in this country, a man who drew up the guidelines for us all to follow for our safety has managed to disregard these guidelines and just do as he pleases? This is probably at the extreme end of things, but isn't this the sort of behaviour we would all be very negative towards if we read of it occurring in places like North Korea, China or some of the backwards Middle East nations?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Do you know what? (And this is addressed to the press and media as much as anyone else)

I don't care one jot about the activites of one man/family regardless of who he is. There are far more important things to concern us all in fact.

I mean, one of the most senior advisers to government (and arguably the person with the most power in the country atm) ignoring government advice that he was helping to shape and potentially breaking the law, is something many people would care about and is a pretty important thing in itself surely?

 

[DelW]

There was no restriction in England about the length of time you could drive at the time. 4 days after the journey the police published guidelines for officers in how to deal with people, which clarified the situation that driving was allowed, but this did not change the law.

I took my first bike ride of the year on 6th April (a week before Easter). By that time, most of the countryside car parks here in Surrey had been blocked off with concrete barriers. Where that wasn't practical, there were police notices fixed to the fences around them, saying (from memory): "Go Home! Do NOT park here for exercise. It is not permitted to drive for exercise, you must only exercise within walking or cycling distance of your home." So they were clearly already prohibiting the sort of trip that Cummings made a week later.

 

[RT4038]

You're seriously telling me that what he was reading from was neatly typed up notes? I don't know about you but I've always been told that note making is all about short, sharp detail that is probably best bullet pointed. What I saw when he continually turned the pages over was blocks of paragraphs you would maybe associate with someone making a speech and it was clear that he read it word for word. I'm not suggesting that the stumbling makes him guilty but it doesn't look great when you have no issues with continuity when the words are written in front of you but struggle when that is not the case.

I take your point about him being a human and the fact that we will make decisions that lead to mistakes. What I have always said though is it isn't necessarily always about the mistake, it is about the reaction you make to the mistake. I always have a lot of respect for people who are man (and woman) enough to own up to a mistake, able to be apologetic and even remorseful where necessary, about a mistake compared to those who will just build lie upon lie onto a mistake to try and conceal things and to con people. And unfortunately Cummings has taken the latter approach, along with Johnson and Gove et al, and that is why the public have responded in the way they have.

I said that his neatly typed up notes were a carefully prepared statement. I would hope that the delivery would have had no continuity issues whilst reading out this! I am sure I would have great difficulty in not stumbling (suffering from a stutter in stress myself) when I know a pack of top journalists are asking me questions with the express purpose of trying to catch me out, to determine my honesty or (preferably) not. And so they should have been too.
DC has not exactly helped himself (with his known impatience towards others, particularly Journalists and MPs) and this is salutary lesson. He is a human being also, and we should not be expecting a higher degree of performance from him than we could do ourselves in the circumstances (other than in Technical knowledge etc). Anything else is hypocrisy.
As you, I have also a lot of respect for people who are man (and woman) enough to own up to a mistake, able to be apologetic and even remorseful where necessary, but sadly our society has turned into one of crucifying people/companies who do that. Mistake=Blame=Claim/Sacking. It is therefore little surprise that we get the responses that we do.

 

[baz962]

I said that his neatly typed up notes were a carefully prepared statement. I would hope that the delivery would have had no continuity issues whilst reading out this! I am sure I would have great difficulty in not stumbling (suffering from a stutter in stress myself) when I know a pack of top journalists are asking me questions with the express purpose of trying to catch me out, to determine my honesty or (preferably) not. And so they should have been too.
DC has not exactly helped himself (with his known impatience towards others, particularly Journalists and MPs) and this is salutary lesson. He is a human being also, and we should not be expecting a higher degree of performance from him than we could do ourselves in the circumstances (other than in Technical knowledge etc). Anything else is hypocrisy.
As you, I have also a lot of respect for people who are man (and woman) enough to own up to a mistake, able to be apologetic and even remorseful where necessary, but sadly our society has turned into one of crucifying people/companies who do that. Mistake=Blame=Claim/Sacking. It is therefore little surprise that we get the responses that we do.

Except it wasn't a mistake. If you are a senior advisor that helped to make the coronavirus guidance , I would expect your would know it with your eye's closed (preferably not 30 miles away while driving).

 

[WelshBluebird]

and we should not be expecting a higher degree of performance from him than we could do ourselves in the circumstance

We absolutely should be expecting someone who helped form the rules and guidance to actually know the rules and guidance better than the rest of us.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As you, I have also a lot of respect for people who are man (and woman) enough to own up to a mistake

1. It was not a mistake at all. Maybe, just maybe, the initial isolating up North was. I don't think it was but I can see it making some kind of sense. But driving 30 miles to a known beauty spot / tourist hotspot around the time of his wife's birthday to "check his eyesight and to make sure he was fit to drive" is not a "mistake". Neither is editing a blog post to make it look like you knew of the risks that were coming.
2. He did not own up to it being a mistake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I took my first bike ride of the year on 6th April (a week before Easter). By that time, most of the countryside car parks here in Surrey had been blocked off with concrete barriers. Where that wasn't practical, there were police notices fixed to the fences around them, saying (from memory): "Go Home! Do NOT park here for exercise. It is not permitted to drive for exercise, you must only exercise within walking or cycling distance of your home." So they were clearly already prohibiting the sort of trip that Cummings made a week later.

That was in fact Police Forces making up the law.

 

[underbank]

Do you know what? (And this is addressed to the press and media as much as anyone else)

I don't care one jot about the activites of one man/family regardless of who he is. There are far more important things to concern us all in fact.
Ultimately, we each have individual responsibility to ourselves and to each other. If "we" were collectively as rational as we perhaps like to think we are, we would not need rules and/or guidance. We would only need to be informed that there is a potentially lethal and incurable contagion "in the wild", how it is believed to be transmitted, and we would all then react rationally to avoid either catching or spreading it.

This ought not to be about political point-scoring, not about individual freedoms, not about media headlines. And if we were remotely rational beings, we would not pay any attention to any of those things.

As it is, sadly, we do have a media frenzy; we do have both media and politicians still trying to compete and score points with each other. It's all so utterly, utterly puerile. I say to them all: get a grip on reality.

Fully agree. Time to move on. Other things that are far more important aren't getting the media attention they deserve - like all the hospital/GP services that are still closed meaning ill people aren't getting the treatment they need.

 

[Kendalian]

We absolutely should be expecting someone who helped form the rules and guidance to actually know the rules and guidance better than the rest of us.

Not sure you whether you intended it WB, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. He does think he knows the rules and guidance better than the rest of us!

Durham Old Bill are fully investigating on the orders of the Police Commissioner and I'm coming to the conclusion the best outcome would be they decide there is sufficient evidence to prosecute him (assuming he refuses a fixed penalty). That way he can be tried freely and fairly in a court, not in the media, and be given free and fair opportunity to defend himself.

Johnson made it clear they are joined at the hip, so where that leaves the PM if he were to be convicted.....

 

[underbank]

DC has not exactly helped himself (with his known impatience towards others, particularly Journalists and MPs)

Nail on the head. This is all about the media "luvvies" wanting to get back at DC - they've been waiting for the opportunity. To most people outside the media, it's a non story and it's time to stop the circus.

 

[SteveM70]

A few observations:

1 - Johnson’s defence of Cummings as “a father following his instincts” is effectively in itself an admission he breached the rules. My instinct as a son was to drive 155 miles to see my parents when my mum was taken ill (not c19 related) but I didn’t because the government guidance said that I shouldn’t do so. I hope Starmer’s first question at PMQs next week is “could the prime minister tell the house the difference between instincts and the law”

2 - as virtually everyone else has said, the excuse for the trip to Barney is preposterous, bordering on the sort of excuses Blackadder used to come up with from time to time

3 - there’s no clear statement to the best of my knowledge that his son is autistic (I certainly don’t remember him mentioning it yesterday) and I suspect if he was it would’ve been mentioned as a big chunk of the justification for the trip to Durham

4 - anybody in a public or otherwise high profile position should have an inbuilt thought process that says “how could someone who doesn’t like me / my company / my football team / my government make this look” before taking a contentious decision. Indeed at places I’ve worked in it’s been included in some training courses. The fact that Cummings seems not to have done this (or did and didn’t change his mind) speaks volumes for his arrogance

 

[SteveM70]

Nail on the head. This is all about the media "luvvies" wanting to get back at DC - they've been waiting for the opportunity. To most people outside the media, it's a non story and it's time to stop the circus.

I really don’t think it is. Certainly for me it’s about someone saying “do as I say, not as I do”. When the Daily Heil turns on the Tories you know they’ve ballsed up. When did that last happen?

 

[underbank]

I took my first bike ride of the year on 6th April (a week before Easter). By that time, most of the countryside car parks here in Surrey had been blocked off with concrete barriers. Where that wasn't practical, there were police notices fixed to the fences around them, saying (from memory): "Go Home! Do NOT park here for exercise. It is not permitted to drive for exercise, you must only exercise within walking or cycling distance of your home." So they were clearly already prohibiting the sort of trip that Cummings made a week later.

Some police forces went beyond what the law said.

 

[baz962]

Nail on the head. This is all about the media "luvvies" wanting to get back at DC - they've been waiting for the opportunity. To most people outside the media, it's a non story and it's time to stop the circus.

That's not it at all. I am unhappy with it , because I want to know why he can do thing's I can't. Also if they lie about this , what else will they lie about. Putting our taxes up etc.

Nail on the head. This is all about the media "luvvies" wanting to get back at DC - they've been waiting for the opportunity. To most people outside the media, it's a non story and it's time to stop the circus.

To people outside the media , really. Did you miss the memo about Johnson's rating falling or MP's from all parties including his own , calling for him to go. Or the Tory minister that quit.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Is this the bloke that told us to get out from unelected bureaucrats?

 

[fgwrich]

I’d imagine childcare is a much greater issue when your 4 year old is autistic. I think he could justify relocating his family to Durham and the fact the police talked to the family and went away happy seems to back this up. The day out to Barnard Castle was stupid, he should have apologized for that and said he drove further than was necessary. He doesn’t appear to have broken the distancing rules, unlike the media outside his home who were probably trying to wind him up as he apparently reminds them to distance when he interacts with them.

I do wonder how much travel the rest of the Westminster circus has been doing in the last 6 months. Glass houses and all.

Again, the autistic comment was made by a rapidly deleted tweet on twitter (by a tory MP I beleive). It's amazing how the spread of Fake News can be used in the context of situations like this.

Is this the bloke that told us to get out from unelected bureaucrats?

Funnily enough it is. Amazing how some people will vote for a prime minister led by an un-elected bureaucrat telling us how bad the choices of another un-elected bureaucrat are.

 

[greyman42]

Nail on the head. This is all about the media "luvvies" wanting to get back at DC - they've been waiting for the opportunity. To most people outside the media, it's a non story and it's time to stop the circus.

This is true. I don't remember there being 10 pages of posts when Stephen Kinnock broke the lockdown rules, but then he was not the architect of Brexit and Boris Johnsons storming majority at the last election.

 

[WelshBluebird]

This is true. I don't remember there being 10 pages of posts when Stephen Kinnock broke the lockdown rules, but then he was not the architect of Brexit and Boris Johnsons storming majority at the last election.

One major difference is that I do not believe Kinnock was not supposed to be self isolating after having Coronavirus symptoms at the time!
Remember two other people involved in the UK's reaction to the virus (Dr Catherine Calderwood and Professor Neil Ferguson) did resign after breaking the rules.