Esker-pades
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Police questioning doesn't mean the person being questioned has broken the law...
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Dominic Cummings alleged breach of lockdown rules discussion
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The police "considered" that he broke the law when he left his second home to go to Barnard Castle. It is not the job of the police to say if this was correct or not. That is for a court to decide. This is why the press release from the police said that he "might" have broken the law.
The press release also explains how if the police had met him in Barnard Castle, they would have told him to go back to his (second) home, and if he did that, that would have been the end of the matter. If he refused, then he would have been given a fine.
squizzler
Established Member
Even if the backbenchers got their way they would still be led by a complete shower in cabinet (shower cabinet, LOL). They would do better to copy what Churchill did in 1904 and cross the floor to sit with the Liberal Democrats for a while.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
They would have to have a convenient epiphany on Brexit before the LibDems would have them.
squizzler
Established Member
With out wishing to sidetrack the thread to discuss Europe they might find that the opinion polls favour making such a volte-face.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Wow, that really is an appalling letter. I'm shocked by that. I don't blame him for doing a standard response because most MPs are getting hundreds of letters about Cummings and won't have time to write individual responses to each one. But what he says shows no understanding - or even attempt to understand -the anger people feel or why. I wonder if he's sent exactly the same letter to people who have suffered individual bereavements or similar situations but obeyed the rules.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
However Cummings was detected, and the police investigated it. It is therefore very surprising that they have chosen not to pursue it, when you consider how heavy-handed their colleagues at Newcastle station were.
He very likely did, especially the Barnard Castle trip, as the trip as he reported it does not fit into any of the permitted reasons for leaving home. I don't think the Durham trip does either, but it is less clear cut given how full of holes the English legislation was.
But the police cannot say he did as a fact, because only a court can decide that.
Of course the English law is so weak he could have used "going for a walk" as a valid defence, but that isn't what he said.
Luckily for Dommy C, the police have even less spine than Boris.
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delt1c
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If Covid app had been in place then it could have shown the potential implication. My other half is a Nurse dealing daily with covid so on the front line and individuals disregarding the recommendations puts her , me and the rest of our family at risk. So i am experiencing this epidemic from the front line.
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If you read this article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-tam-lockdown-rules-apply-to-all#maincontent
It appears to be the case that Prof Jonathan Van Tam, Deputy Chief Medical Officer, has (tactfully) gone against the grain of government ministers and other advisors including Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and Jenny Harries, and took the opportunity to remind everybody that the rules apply to everyone.
For context, he was asked by Toby Helm from the Observer:
I think it was a very tactful and professional way to approach the question, clearly conveys his opinion but not being antagonistic.
Immediate edit: This was from the Downing Street Press Conference today, 30th May.
It appears to be the case that Prof Jonathan Van Tam, Deputy Chief Medical Officer, has (tactfully) gone against the grain of government ministers and other advisors including Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and Jenny Harries, and took the opportunity to remind everybody that the rules apply to everyone.
For context, he was asked by Toby Helm from the Observer:
Professor Van Tam replied:
I think it was a very tactful and professional way to approach the question, clearly conveys his opinion but not being antagonistic.
Immediate edit: This was from the Downing Street Press Conference today, 30th May.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
In isolation, what Dommy C did wasn't crime of the century. But the precedent it set leads to this:
www.thenorthernecho.co.uk
Durham Police can't exactly fine any of them now, can they.
It's now a government-sanctioned free for all.
Police close road due to congestion involving at least 200 cars
DURHAM Police have been forced to close a road in Teesdale due to congestion and Military Police were drafted in to help control the visiting…
Durham Police can't exactly fine any of them now, can they.
It's now a government-sanctioned free for all.
All Boris Johnson had to do was ask for Cummings' resignation - he resigns and reappears in 6 months time when people would've long forgotten. Instead they lied time and time again to protect Cummings, asking cabinet ministers to support and that whole house of cards has collapsed. Respect for social distancing gone, respect for the rules and guidelines gone, respect for the government gone.
We're not heading for a second wave as we prematurely allow easing of restrictions, even though today we had more deaths than the rest of Europe combined. An embarrassment.
We're not heading for a second wave as we prematurely allow easing of restrictions, even though today we had more deaths than the rest of Europe combined. An embarrassment.
HSTEd
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The lockdown was collapsing anyway.
We have members of SAGE screaming "it's too soon", because their are too many cases, but refuse to tell the public what level of cases is likely to be acceptable.
A cynic might suggest that they are scared they will be blamed when the inevitable second peak occurs (and it is inevitable beyond an eternal lockdown continuing indefinitely) but know that they will never be blamed for economic collapse - so are never going to suggest a releasing of measures because they are covering themselves.
I'm afraid it seems very likely, barring a miracle emerging from the vaccine studies, that continuing with the Suppression strategy means a de-facto lockdown continuing almost forever.
Short of embracing the disciplinarian style of Ferdinand Schörner, the lockdown could have lasted at most another couple of weeks.
And given a caseload of ~8,000 per day, and a likely R value approaching 0.9 - waiting will have almost no effect anyway.
We have members of SAGE screaming "it's too soon", because their are too many cases, but refuse to tell the public what level of cases is likely to be acceptable.
A cynic might suggest that they are scared they will be blamed when the inevitable second peak occurs (and it is inevitable beyond an eternal lockdown continuing indefinitely) but know that they will never be blamed for economic collapse - so are never going to suggest a releasing of measures because they are covering themselves.
I'm afraid it seems very likely, barring a miracle emerging from the vaccine studies, that continuing with the Suppression strategy means a de-facto lockdown continuing almost forever.
Short of embracing the disciplinarian style of Ferdinand Schörner, the lockdown could have lasted at most another couple of weeks.
And given a caseload of ~8,000 per day, and a likely R value approaching 0.9 - waiting will have almost no effect anyway.
Well, the NHS is preparing for a second wave early in July, which when it happens in will require a return of some restrictions, - maybe quite a few, mainly to maintain a capability for non-COVID-19 cases, which there have been great concerns for. Before anyone asks for evidence, you won't get it because it isn't in the public domain yet.
The continual hankering for 'returning to normal' is putting this weak administration under pressure to make decisions that it knows will risk the second wave being worse than the first, - but ho hum, it's the will of the (noisiest section) of the public.
I just sense, and it's only a feeling with little facts to back it up, that what this government says and, in particular, what is "allowed" in the path to 'returning to normal' is increasingly irrelevant. More and more people are making up their minds that the lockdown has ended, in one way or another, and are acting according to their own desires and interpretation of reality as they see it.
Again, it's just a feeling, but the increasing irrelevance of the government started about a week ago.
The government can only govern with the consent and acquiescence of the governed, and these don't exist any more.
Even things that the government might be able to control, like reopening schools, isn't happening as they want it to because of local resistance.
Alongside this, the voices of people who speak sense and should be listened to are being drowned out, or tainted by association with those who talk increasing nonsense. Saying that it's "civic duty" to isolate when asked to in future is not stupid, but has become laughable in the mouth of this government.
Again, it's just a feeling, but the increasing irrelevance of the government started about a week ago.
The government can only govern with the consent and acquiescence of the governed, and these don't exist any more.
Even things that the government might be able to control, like reopening schools, isn't happening as they want it to because of local resistance.
Alongside this, the voices of people who speak sense and should be listened to are being drowned out, or tainted by association with those who talk increasing nonsense. Saying that it's "civic duty" to isolate when asked to in future is not stupid, but has become laughable in the mouth of this government.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
...because Cummings didn't follow his civic duty.
Does he realise he has potentially killed thousands by his actions and his following arrogance?
Does he realise he has potentially killed thousands by his actions and his following arrogance?
I really don't think he does realise this, and I agree with you that this is one of the potential outcomes of his actions, however the implications have been vastly magnified by the actions of the Prime Minister, who is the real villain of the piece for me. Making a mistake and being sacked for it swiftly would have had few consequences on real people and their lives. Even Nicola Sturgeon worked this out in a few hours, having initially made totally the wrong call.
Johnson is just a figurehead leader, he can't sack the real head of the government.
I think if we had a real head of government behind the scenes, we might be in a better position than we are. I see Johnson as a woefully inept leader, whose cabinet is appointed in his own image to support him unquestioningly, with little real ability from him or any of them. I liked last week's Guardian comment (https://www.theguardian.com/comment...nic-cummings-boris-johnson-terrified-sack-him):
I'm arrogant enough not to believe a word he or his government says, but make up my own mind and act accordingly. I haven't been beyond the end of my driveway for two months. But others who are, like me, arrogant enough to make up their own minds will come to different conclusions and act accordingly. The Dominic Cummings episode has been the catalyst to provoke large numbers of people to make up their own minds and, in my opinion, come to the wrong conclusions.
Sadly, though, I see Johnson as incapable of doing the job, and by his many mistakes many people will have died unnecessarily.
I'm arrogant enough not to believe a word he or his government says, but make up my own mind and act accordingly. I haven't been beyond the end of my driveway for two months. But others who are, like me, arrogant enough to make up their own minds will come to different conclusions and act accordingly. The Dominic Cummings episode has been the catalyst to provoke large numbers of people to make up their own minds and, in my opinion, come to the wrong conclusions.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's your prerogative (for now; unless you're retired or a home worker anyway you're going to have to choose returning to work or being destitute at some point). However, it is totally unnecessary to restrict yourself to that extent (or imply that others should) unless you are shielding.
mailbyrail
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If the research by Alex Tiffin is to be believed, then it would seem a whole range of breaches have been occurring
universalcreditsuffer.com
Black Isle Media - Cummings spare cottage has no Planning or Council Tax
The "spare cottage" which Dominic Cummings claimed to stay at on his father's farm, has no planning permission nor pays any council tax.
universalcreditsuffer.com
VauxhallandI
Established Member
Rosie Duffield: Labour MP steps down as whip after admitting lockdown breach
news.sky.com
That’s the way to do it Rosie
Rosie Duffield: Labour MP steps down as whip after admitting lockdown breach
Canterbury MP Rosie Duffield has apologised and says she has been "attempting to navigate a difficult personal situation".
news.sky.com
fgwrich
Established Member
Rosie Duffield: Labour MP steps down as whip after admitting lockdown breach
That’s the way to do it RosieRosie Duffield: Labour MP steps down as whip after admitting lockdown breach
Canterbury MP Rosie Duffield has apologised and says she has been "attempting to navigate a difficult personal situation".
Indeed, and a clever tactic to continue the undermining of Boris & Cummings.
Speaking of. While we are pretty much aware that Boris doesn't care what the public seem to think of him at the moment, the public are very much aware.
Tory poll lead collapses as voters say Cummings should go
More than two-thirds of voters want Dominic Cummings sacked and Tory lead over Labour plummets
Indeed, and a clever tactic to continue the undermining of Boris & Cummings.
Speaking of. While we are pretty much aware that Boris doesn't care what the public seem to think of him at the moment, the public are very much aware.
Tory poll lead collapses as voters say Cummings should go
More than two-thirds of voters want Dominic Cummings sacked and Tory lead over Labour plummetswww.theguardian.com
There won't be an election till 2024/2025. People have short memories, believe you me if they want to vote Tory then they will regardless of what they are saying now.
fgwrich
Established Member
That maybe so, and while the Cummings business may easily be forgotten about in 4 years time, I don't think the governments handling of the Covid19 business will wash away as easily as Boris thinks it will. What's also interesting about the poll published in todays Observer is the amount of disdain within the party at the moment too.
Busaholic
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I know how wrong I was before about Cummings going but I feel more than ever that it will happen soon, as Johnson gets the message that it could well be him, otherwise: don't forget, unlike Labour, Tory MPs have it in their power to rid themselves of a leader, regardless of whether that leader is a P.M. When you get a brownnosing MP like mine, Derek Thomas, not only openly declaring that Johnson should have 'got a grip' on the Cummings debacle far sooner but that Hancock was also out of order in being so rude to Labour's mental health spokesperson in the Commons you realise that many of them are s*it scared. That Committee of 100 could be arranging a secret vote within weeks, possibly days, otherwise. Watch the Tories sink in the opinion polls; unfortunately, probably taking the rest of us with them..
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I agree that with potentially at least 4 years to go to an election, there's plenty of time for people to change their minds. However, I think this is long-term significant. Over the last year Boris has been electorally almost impregnable in part because of a gloss surrounding him where people see him as an anti-establishment figure who isn't a typical politician and who gets things done (look at the numbers of people who supported him when he basically took an axe to the constitution and the role of Parliament over Brexit). I'd say that's in part why he's been able to get away with so many obvious direct lies. A bit similar to Trump, although to a lesser degree.
But that has now gone. By supporting Cummings, in the eyes of many people who had supported him, he has become part of the establishment, part of the so-called 'elite' that many people like to make conspiracy theories about. That gloss surrounding him has suddenly gone. That's going to be very hard for him to recover from, and I suspect it will have long term implications in making it harder (though not impossible) for him to win an election even in 4 or so years' time.
CaptainHaddock
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Interesting reports today that of the two witnesses who claimed to have seen Dominic Cummings breaking the lockdown, one had broken the lockdown himself by driving 250 miles to see his daughter and the other has confessed to making up his story for a joke!
Three wrongs don't make a right of course, but it just goes to show you can't always believe what you read in the press!
Three wrongs don't make a right of course, but it just goes to show you can't always believe what you read in the press!
HSTEd
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The lockdown was never going to hold indefinitely.
thejuggler
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Including reports that a witness drove 250 miles and making out this was somehow a problem.
He drove to pick up a student from her digs which was permitted and within the guidance.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I kinda agree that his actions are indirectly going to lead to many more deaths, and that is atrocious on Cummings's[1] part . But I would kinda hesitate about ascribing blame entirely to him. Remember, the people who subsequently break social distancing while using Cummings as an excuse are really the people who will more directly be responsible for those likely deaths, and we shouldn't absolve those people of the blame.
[1] As a total aside, I've just realised I'm not quite sure how the grammar works for turning a name that ends in 's' into a possessive.
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