Doncaster-Sheffield (Finningley) Airport Proposed Station

[Tracked]

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk...ion-for-doncaster-sheffield-airport-1-8286699

Doncaster Sheffield Airport plans to compete with major rivals such as Manchester airport by opening a train station that will speed up its links with the South-East.

The airport hopes the Government will support its plans for a new railway station, which would mean that travellers from London King’s Cross could arrive at the airport in about 90 minutes.

The airport’s bosses say the planned station would ease congestion on cross-London rail routes by encouraging more people to fly from the relatively quiet airspace above Doncaster Sheffield.

A report about the airport’s future – The Vision for Transformational Growth – says: “Government support for these proposals would demonstrate a strategic and better balanced approach to the provision of future air capacity for the long term.”

The airport, which is owned by Peel Group, said that initial estimates suggested it could cost between £100m and £150m to re-align the nearby East Coast main line and create a station by the airport.

Not sure about realigning the ECML though, surely they mean an extension off the Gainsborough line back onto the ECML? (not sure how much green ink, etc ... )

 

[GRALISTAIR]

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk...ion-for-doncaster-sheffield-airport-1-8286699



Not sure about realigning the ECML though, surely they mean an extension off the Gainsborough line back onto the ECML? (not sure how much green ink, etc ... )

No - agreed - that is a big ask.

 

[lincolnshire]

Its a long way from the airport, even what used to be Finningley station when it was open is a decent walk to the terminal building.

You can catch a service bus from Doncaster Interchange right behind the new platform 0 at Doncaster through to the airport right up to the terminal building.

 

[johnnychips]

Its a long way from the airport, even what used to be Finningley station when it was open is a decent walk to the terminal building.

You can catch a service bus from Doncaster Interchange right behind the new platform 0 at Doncaster through to the airport right up to the terminal building.

Yes, it's the new X4 half-hourly service, which takes 22 minutes (doable except in the peaks). Used it twice and seen it about a lot, never more than six people on it. The majority of users of the airport use taxis, get dropped off by friends, or park up (apparently it's quite cheap).

The reasoning in the article seems rather bizarre. Doncaster has many Eastern Europe routes by Wizz, sun routes by Thomson, and city/sun routes by Flybe. All these destinations are served to a large extent by Leeds, East Midlands and Birmingham; certainly all are by Luton and Stansted. Why on earth would anyone travel from anywhere south of Derby unless the prices were cheaper?

A direct service from Sheffield has often been mooted, but as we all know, this would involve horrendous cross-ECML flows, that really need some sort of a flyover - not cheap and to be honest, not urgent. This explains the very poor service levels to Lincoln on EMT.

 

[bradders1983]

An utterly pointless station unless the current service level of five (?) services a day on the line, with none on Sundays, is improved.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The BBC version of the story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-38300598) says:

It would involve a four-mile (7km) diversion to the main London to Scotland railway line, which runs just a mile away from the airport site.

rather than a station on the GN/GE joint (Gainsborough) line.

 

[bradders1983]

Well no services except long distance VTEC/Grand Central/Hull Trains ones run over the Doncaster/Retford section of the ECML as far as I know, they want those to start calling there?

Hmm, cant see it meself, especially with VTEC.

Might be scope for perhaps one of the stoppers from the north of Doncaster to be extended one station to terminate in a bay at the new proposed station, depending on if the paths on the ECML allow it.

Also the airport is very quiet, is it all worth it? I just looked at the arrivals and departures for today and there is a grand total of:

- SEVEN arrivals between 1155 and 2205
- EIGHT departures between 0820 and 2145

In the case of the above there are huge gaps (e.g. no departure between 1635 and 2100)

Yes, tomorrow looks a little busier but the extra departures are leaving between 6-7am which probably isnt of much use to a train service when you factor in time needed to check in etc.

Suppose the argument is that a train station may attract more airlines to use it.

 

[eastwestdivide]

That's what they're proposing, to get the long-distance services to call - the BBC article also says "The rail connection would mean a travel time to Newcastle or London of around 90 minutes"

It is still only a proposal from the airport company though.

 

[glbotu]

Also, £100m isn't really enough for a wholescale "realignment" of the ECML, or even a flying junction. I'd suggest they'll end up with a station on the GN/GE and maybe a better service there for that kind of money.

 

[Holmevalley]

More chance of seeing those flying pigs land there than realigning the track

 

[thenorthern]

I don't think a Doncaster-Sheffield Airport station would ever work, there is planning permission for a station on the Doncaster to Lincoln line but Network Rail don't want to build a station for 4 trains per day in each direction.

Given how well East Midlands Parkway hasn't worked for East Midlands Airport I don't think as Doncaster Airport Parkway would work.

Manchester Airport station has been a big success but that is an airport serving a large city with direct links to most the north of England and a large amount of incoming passenger traffic from outside the United Kingdom who don't have a car. I don't think many tourists from Europe come to visit Doncaster.

 

[Grimsby town]

A 4 mile diversion suggests that the new line will diverge just north of Bawtry and then join the Gainsborough Line just north of the airport. If this is the proposal and I can't think of any other possible route, the time penalty for ECML trains to use it will surely be too large.

This area of the country needs a railway station but I think a more sensible solution would be a parkway station just north of Bawtry on the ECML.

 

[bradders1983]

A 4 mile diversion suggests that the new line will diverge just north of Bawtry and then join the Gainsborough Line just north of the airport. If this is the proposal and I can't think of any other possible route, the time penalty for ECML trains to use it will surely be too large.

I suppose it may be possible that they will keep the existing bit open and then trains will have 2 routes: the existing one, and the one you describe. Only trains stopping at the station would use the one you describe (surely no more than one an hour, one of the Leeds-London services?), with the rest continuing as before.

Not that I think any of this will happen anyway.

 

[Dvorak]

The argument for a station and realignment has nothing to do with current service levels of trains nor planes. Or with people wanting to visit Doncaster. Or go to Poland or on their holidays. There are capacity issues with many airports in the UK and especially those in the south-east. Doncaster Sheffield has a big runway, an underused terminal and room for expansion. Land a big plane every hour, most of whose passengers want to go to London and the train is the only economic/practical way to get there, 200 boarding an hour for 15 hours a day, (and the same arriving) there's over 2 million train passenger journeys a year. And that would be just taking a small fraction of London bound air passengers.

Is 90 minutes too long a journey? It's stretching things but no worse than some journeys for eg New York, Paris, Rome. And there's quite an attraction in using a small efficient airport which is quick to pass through and quick onto outbound transport.

Does it justify realigning the main line? I don't know. Putting a station on the existing mainline near the airport and a people mover might seem an option but studies show that putting that extra step in puts a massive dent in the attractiveness of the proposition (Edinburgh wrestled with these issues for years and came up with an unsatisfactory solution).

Think of the DSA of twenty years hence as not so much a rival to Manchester, or even Leeds-Bradford, but a further flung Luton, with a better train service.

 

[sheff1]

I have seen some bizarre proposals from Peel Group over the years but this must be the best yet. Why do they imagine that people would travel to an airport "reachable from Kings Cross in about 90 mins" when said airport has a very limited range of destinations, all of which can be reached from one or more airports rather closer to Kings Cross. Never mind the 'London' airports at Luton, Stansted, City, Gatwick & Heathrow - Birmingham airport is less than 90 mins from Kings Cross and has far more flights than DSA.

People from the NE, who already have Newcastle airport, are also not going to be swarming to DSA.

If Peel want to attract more custom they need to concentrate on areas where the potential is real. Despite having Sheffield in its' name, its attraction is small to the people of Sheffield. Even those who use the car will take the rather difficult roads to Manchester because the vastly superior range of destinations. For public transport users Manchester Airport is much easier to get to from Sheffield than DSA.

Edit: I note dvorak's comments above, but the linked article makes no mention of such ideas and I have not seen any such proposals elsewhere either.

 

[DimTim]

Totally agree that Peel have promised much delivered little.
They have failed to attract a hub operator. Initially Thomson based 3 aircraft there but pulled out after a few years. Wizz do have numerous routes but fly in & out - not based there. Ryanair, EasyJet, Jet2 have not been attracted although Flybe appear to be giving it a go.
Until a greater number of arrivals/departures can be attracted a station in not going ,to see much use. Recently a spur has been constructed of the M18 but the final part of the direct route is still awaiting a start.

 

[Dvorak]

Another quote from Steve Gill, Chief Executive of DSA, made in October:

"Our airport, one of the fastest growing in the UK, is uniquely placed to take significantly more of the UK’s aviation capacity needs, thanks to the unconstrained expansion potential of our airport site for passengers and freight, with limited environmental impact and available air space."

Which touches on another issue, it's not just ground capacity, it is traffic in the air. Taking a flight to an airport where the near certainty is that your plane will land in its slot and not circle over London (or Manchester) for half an hour or more has quite an appeal.

"Fastest growing" admittedly is a bit of chutzpah as it is due to a large fall when EasyJet left and a bounceback, but given that all UK air traffic took a hit with the financial crisis and is only now passing levels of several years ago, DSA's figures overall are not out of line.

 

[DimTim]

Cargo is possibly an area they could target. There is a huge railport planned on the M18 spur. Doncaster has good rail links that could move freight quickly but would need road transport from airport to railport. East Midlands has built up a night time business with UPS DHL etc. With greater capacity DSA may find a niche here.

 

[thenorthern]

Given the region is a very car dependent region I don't think having a station will solve the issue of lack of usage at Doncaster Airport. At least though they have dropped the Robin Hood Airport branding as it never really worked as a name.

Given that Sheffield City Airport never worked, Leeds Bradford Airport is used much less that most airports in places the size of Leeds let alone with Bradford as well plus Humberside Airport is quiet as well maybe Yorkshire and The Humber is not suitable to have an airport.

Peel Airports is a strange thing as Liverpool John Lennon Airport has been relatively successful, Durham Tees Valley Airport is a big failure, Sheffield City Airport was a failure and Doncaster Airport has been relatively unsuccessful maybe Peel should stay outside of airports and stick to other things.

 

[backontrack]

If this proposition is a goer, then Rossington and Bawtry in the area could both justify stations. We can throw that in there too if there's to be a new stopping service.

 

[Ianno87]

A 4 mile diversion suggests that the new line will diverge just north of Bawtry and then join the Gainsborough Line just north of the airport. If this is the proposal and I can't think of any other possible route, the time penalty for ECML trains to use it will surely be too large.

This area of the country needs a railway station but I think a more sensible solution would be a parkway station just north of Bawtry on the ECML.

Quantifying the journey time disbenefits to ECML passengers from a diversion via the airport (and disruption costs) into £££ will rapidly make the "£100m" figure look like loose change....

 

[johnnychips]

If this proposition is a goer, then Rossington and Bawtry in the area could both justify stations. We can throw that in there too if there's to be a new stopping service.

There isn't the line capacity to accommodate stoppers, unfortunately. I have no doubt these places could justify a stopping service if there were four tracks now, but there aren't; if this extravagant proposal were considered, you could have a station at Bawtry, rebuilt to take 9 car trains (or whatever they will be) but not at Rossington - it would be bypassed.

 

[Bevan Price]

Just another dreamland suggestion, I think. I cannot see any TOC wanting to delay their services by adding additional stops to ECML services.

Now if only Peel wanted to pay £ xxx,000,000 to divert the Doncaster - Gainsborough line, build a new airport station, and support the cost of an hourly Donaster - Lincoln service............

 

[PrinceBishop]

This is one of the most far fetched schemes I've encountered. I suspect Peel Group know full well the idea of Doncaster Sheffield ever being a major international airport regularly attracting passengers from as far afield as London and Newcastle is a nonsense. Perhaps they're hoping they can fool Network Rail into buying into their pipe dream and provide them with a station on the ECML, not sure what their angle is. Frankly, I would not be pleased if taxpayers money was spent on this.

There is an idea that's been growing in popularity recently that the problems of airport capacity in the South East can be solved by high quality transport links to airports in other parts of the country. I am highly sceptical of this idea. I remain convinced that in order to serve highly populated areas airports need to be located in or near those areas. Although trying to get more people to use public transport to get to airports is a laudable enough aim, and may well see some success, the fact is a significant proportion of passengers will still drive, and they're not going to travel across country without good reason. Stansted is a far more likely candidate for major expansion to pick up South East capacity than any non-London area airport.

The largest airports in this country will remain London area airports and Manchester due to the large populations around them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This is one of the most far fetched schemes I've encountered. ----
The largest airports in this country will remain London area airports and Manchester due to the large populations around them.

correct

1 London Heathrow 73,405,330 74,985,748 Increase 2.2%
2 London Gatwick 38,103,667 40,269,087 Increase 5.7%
3 Manchester 21,989,682 23,136,047 Increase 5.2%
4 London Stansted 19,965,093 22,519,178 Increase 12.8%
5 London Luton 10,484,938 12,263,505 Increase 17.0%
6 Edinburgh 10,160,004 11,114,587 Increase 9.4%
7 Birmingham 9,705,955 10,187,122 Increase 5.0%
8 Glasgow 7,715,988 8,714,307 Increase 12.9%
9 Bristol 6,339,805 6,786,790 Increase 7.1%
10 Newcastle 4,516,739 4,562,853 Increase 1.0%

WIKIPEDIA is the source - correct

 

[PrinceBishop]

correct

1 London Heathrow 73,405,330 74,985,748 Increase 2.2%
2 London Gatwick 38,103,667 40,269,087 Increase 5.7%
3 Manchester 21,989,682 23,136,047 Increase 5.2%
4 London Stansted 19,965,093 22,519,178 Increase 12.8%
5 London Luton 10,484,938 12,263,505 Increase 17.0%
6 Edinburgh 10,160,004 11,114,587 Increase 9.4%
7 Birmingham 9,705,955 10,187,122 Increase 5.0%
8 Glasgow 7,715,988 8,714,307 Increase 12.9%
9 Bristol 6,339,805 6,786,790 Increase 7.1%
10 Newcastle 4,516,739 4,562,853 Increase 1.0%

WIKIPEDIA is the source - correct

Yes. And I think they're out of date. I'm fairly sure that Manchester is over 25 million now and Stansted is over 20 million. Think the rankings are basically the same though and the big drop between Stansted and everything below still exists.

 

[thenorthern]

One thing though about Doncaster Sheffield Airport I have noticed though is public transport at the airport is rather poor as despite the airport having the name "Sheffield" in its title there are no direct public transport links to the airport on rail or bus.

Given that there are direct rail links from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, Liverpool South Parkway, Luton Airport Parkway, East Midlands Parkway and Southampton Airport Parkway transport links from Sheffield to Doncaster - "Sheffield" Airport are worse than poor.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

One thing though about Doncaster Sheffield Airport I have noticed though is public transport at the airport is rather poor as despite the airport having the name "Sheffield" in its title there are no direct public transport links to the airport on rail or bus.

Given that there are direct rail links from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, Liverpool South Parkway, Luton Airport Parkway, East Midlands Parkway and Southampton Airport Parkway transport links from Sheffield to Doncaster - "Sheffield" Airport are worse than poor.

So start with a real good bus service. Diverting the ECML is a non-starter.

 

[johnnychips]

So start with a real good bus service. Diverting the ECML is a non-starter.

This is a non-starter. It took years to get the very necessary road from the M18 approved and completed. A new railway line and station would be ridiculously complicated and expensive.

As for a bus from Sheffield, unless you live in the centre, it would probably be cheaper and certainly much more convenient to get a pre-booked taxi or get a mate to drop you off for petrol money if there are two or more of you.

If you are single? Get an all-day S Yorkshire First ticket - X78 and X4 - very slow 110 to 140 minutes; or get the train to Donny and then the half-hourly X4 to the airport - 60 to 100 minutes, depending how lucky you are with connections. Unfortunately I cannot see enough demand for a direct bus service from Sheffield.

 

[thenorthern]

Given that London is already served by London Stansted and London Luton both of which are served by the type of no frills airlines that serve Doncaster-Sheffield and at a cheaper price I don't see why someone in London would travel to Doncaster to get a flight.

I think its time for Peel to accept that maybe airports aren't their thing, they have tried run an airport only 25 miles from where there is currently an aiport (Humberside Airport) and serving an area where they already owned a failled airport (Sheffield City Airport). They gave it a ridiculous name (Robin Hood Airport) which meant they had to explain why a figure associated with Nottingham should feature in Doncaster airport's name, having to explain something when your selling it is never a good sign.

Doncaster-Sheffield Airport is one of the airport that poped up around the early 00s when money grew on trees and airports such as Liverpool, Sheffield City, Cambridge, Oxford, Coventry, Shoreham, Newquay, Manston Kent or whatever its called, Swansea, Plymouth, Durham Tees Valley, Dundee and Blackpool all of them did well for a while but then the finacial crisis came and they lost loads of passngers. Mind you though Carlisle Airport is going to take schedule flights soon which may join the list.

So start with a real good bus service. Diverting the ECML is a non-starter.

Indeed for starters the East Coast Main Line doesn't serve Sheffield.