Doncaster to Barton-on-Humber - is it (or should it be) valid via Hull?

[alistairlees]

Doncaster to Barton on Humber has routeing points of Doncaster (of course) and Habrough. A journey via this route is around 49 miles.

However, Doncaster to Barton on Humber via Hull (taking the bus from Hull to Barton on Humber - it's in the data for every day except Saturday, for some reason) can be quicker and offers more options (at least hourly). The rail distance from Doncaster to Hull is around 40 miles, and buses don't count for distance calculations, according to the routeing guide. So, as this is no more than 3 miles more than the shortest distance (49 miles) by rail, this should be valid.

Or should it? Does the three mile shortest distance rule only apply if the mapped constraints (the routeing points) have also been complied with? In other words, the three mile rule does not apply on this particular example.

Thoughts?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Doncaster to Barton on Humber has routeing points of Doncaster (of course) and Habrough. A journey via this route is around 49 miles.

However, Doncaster to Barton on Humber via Hull (taking the bus from Hull to Barton on Humber - it's in the data for every day except Saturday, for some reason) can be quicker and offers more options (at least hourly). The rail distance from Doncaster to Hull is around 40 miles, and buses don't count for distance calculations, according to the routeing guide. So, as this is no more than 3 miles more than the shortest distance (49 miles) by rail, this should be valid.

Or should it? Does the three mile shortest distance rule only apply if the mapped constraints (the routeing points) have also been complied with? In other words, the three mile rule does not apply on this particular example.

Thoughts?

Mapping and Routeing Points doesn't come into shortest routes. Condition 13.1.2, which (alongside the Routeing Guide) defines a shortest route as being a permitted route, is ambiguous as to whether the entire journey must be made by rail. But I am minded to suggest that the shortest route must be one that is entirely by rail. Otherwise, what is to prevent a passenger on a lower-priced route - e.g. Honiton to London - using their ticket from somewhere like Bristol, and claiming that they can use it from there having taken a bus, taxi etc. from Honiton, since that is a shorter route than Honiton to London.

I'm afraid I don't think this is permitted, unless it is something that is explicitly intended - e.g. in the case of route "TILBRY&GRAVESND" tickets.

 

[JB_B]

...But I am minded to suggest that the shortest route must be one that is entirely by rail. Otherwise, what is to prevent a passenger on a lower-priced route - e.g. Honiton to London - using their ticket from somewhere like Bristol, and claiming that they can use it from there having taken a bus, taxi etc. from Honiton, since that is a shorter route than Honiton to London...

I think what prevents it is that an arbitrary bus or taxi leg like that wouldn't be in the data ( so the route doesn't exist ) - the Hull to Barton bus link is in the data.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks both. That's exactly my point here - Doncaster to Barton-on-Humber does exist in the data, and is the shortest route (because a significant part is on a bus, but that's what the rules say). So it should be valid. But I can't get it to be valid on any site.

 

[John @ home]

it should be valid. But I can't get it to be valid on any site.

I agree with ForTheLoveOf that the shortest route, defined in the paragraph "CALCULATING SHORTEST DISTANCES" on page 1 of the National Routeing Guide Instructions, is the shortest route wholly by rail. That is the only way that it is possible to calculate "the throughout distance for travel between every station by any route".

 

[JB_B]

Just had a quick look and Trainline seems to sell this route as the default.

 

[alistairlees]

I agree with ForTheLoveOf that the shortest route, defined in the paragraph "CALCULATING SHORTEST DISTANCES" on page 1 of the National Routeing Guide Instructions, is the shortest route wholly by rail. That is the only way that it is possible to calculate "the throughout distance for travel between every station by any route".

Rail replacement buses would not count?

 

[Haywain]

Rail replacement buses would not count?

Rail replacement buses would count because, by their nature, they replace the rails and in calculating the journey distance the rail distance is what would be used.

 

[John @ home]

Rail replacement buses would not count?

I don't see how rail replacement buses can play any role in the calculation of the shortest route between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket. The provision of a rail replacement bus for part of a journey does sometimes open up a journey opportunity which would not normally be permitted with a particular ticket, but I don't think that's dependent on the shortest route rule.

 

[Haywain]

Overall, I'm inclined to agree that the intended permitted route is wholly by rail and that Trainline are incorrect in offering a journey via Hull. Were such a journey to be valid I would expect to see much cheaper fares than are available for a journey from Hull to Barton-on-Humber, which is very clearly priced as a rail only journey.

 

[JB_B]

Rail replacement buses would count because, by their nature, they replace the rails and in calculating the journey distance the rail distance is what would be used.

Is that true? I understood that replacement bus legs count as zero mileage (and you sometime see unusual routes being offered because of this.)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is that true? I understood that replacement bus legs count as zero mileage (and you sometime see unusual routes being offered because of this.)

To a booking engine, it may count as zero mileage, but that does not necessarily mean that a ticket bought without an itinerary that follows an otherwise not permitted route is valid on said non-permitted route.

 

[JB_B]

To a booking engine, it may count as zero mileage, but that does not necessarily mean that a ticket bought without an itinerary that follows an otherwise not permitted route is valid on said non-permitted route.

Yes, perhaps we need to distinguish between questions of

(1) whether a journey is permitted by the public-facing NRG

and

(2) whether a correct implementation of the eNRG rules allows a planner to validate a journey

and accept that the answers might be different.

 

[alistairlees]

I agree with ForTheLoveOf that the shortest route, defined in the paragraph "CALCULATING SHORTEST DISTANCES" on page 1 of the National Routeing Guide Instructions, is the shortest route wholly by rail. That is the only way that it is possible to calculate "the throughout distance for travel between every station by any route".

I agree that the shortest route means "the shortest route wholly by rail". In this case the shortest route wholly by rail is Doncaster - Habrough - Barton on Humber, which is about 49 miles.

The question is: is any other route, that is no more than three miles greater than this, also valid? I thought the answer to this question was an unqualified "yes"; there is another recent post on here which asks whether side trips to places like Deganwy are valid, as they are still less than 3 miles extra - the answer from at least some forum members was "yes". As the route from Doncaster to Barton on Humber is -9 miles longer (i.e. 9 miles shorter), it comfortably fits this criterion. This only happens because bus journeys count as zero mileage, according to the routeing guide.

 

[alistairlees]

Is that true? I understood that replacement bus legs count as zero mileage (and you sometime see unusual routes being offered because of this.)

That was my understanding too. It happened with the recent engineering between Glasgow and Perth. Some quite odd routes (I forget which ones now) which sare not normally valid became valid because they had long rail replacement bus legs in them.

 

[Haywain]

I agree that the shortest route means "the shortest route wholly by rail". In this case the shortest route wholly by rail is Doncaster - Habrough - Barton on Humber, which is about 49 miles.

The question is: is any other route, that is no more than three miles greater than this, also valid? I thought the answer to this question was an unqualified "yes"; there is another recent post on here which asks whether side trips to places like Deganwy are valid, as they are still less than 3 miles extra - the answer from at least some forum members was "yes". As the route from Doncaster to Barton on Humber is -9 miles longer (i.e. 9 miles shorter), it comfortably fits this criterion. This only happens because bus journeys count as zero mileage, according to the routeing guide.

Is the bus from Hull to Barton on Humber included in the rail fare? If so, then I will concede that you have a point but if not I don't see how it could be considered part of the journey.

 

[JB_B]

Is the bus from Hull to Barton on Humber included in the rail fare? If so, then I will concede that you have a point but if not I don't see how it could be considered part of the journey.

I see that this was discussed (for Darlington to Barton on Humber) back in 2015 and the consensus then was that the bus was not included in the ticket. ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/darlington-to-barton-on-humber-via-hull-and-bus.120589/ )

FastJP still shows the buses as being operated by Northern (e.g service ID NT0273 ). It would be interesting to know what bus drivers would say to a printed Trainline itinerary - I wouldn't want to risk it myself.

 

[A Challenge]

I thought the journey couldn't end on a walking leg (so named-station tickets aren't valid to the other one in X STATIONS because of this), or am I mistaken?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Part of the confusion could be due to the history of the route, where through tickets were valid on the ferry which sailed under the BR badge. I recall travelling from Grimsby to Hull via the ferry.

When the bridge opened, the ferry leg was replaced by a bus service. This was also valid as a through ticket when the service started.

Has this been carried on into the current pricing model?

 

[D.K.TAYLOR]

Is the bus from Hull to Barton on Humber included in the rail fare? If so, then I will concede that you have a point but if not I don't see how it could be considered part of the journey.

Last time i tried to use a ticket from Barton to Hull was a rover ticket and was refused

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think the 3-mile route is a red herring here. Easement 700241 disallows this route: "Customers travelling from or via Barton On Humber to Hessle, Ferriby, Brough and beyond may not travel via Hull. This easement applies in both directions"

 

[alistairlees]

I thought I had looked at the easements. No idea how I missed that one. Thanks Indigo2

 

[moliones]

Do easements apply to routes which (might be) valid by virtue of being not 3 miles longer than the shortest route by rail?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Do easements apply to routes which (might be) valid by virtue of being not 3 miles longer than the shortest route by rail?

There isn't universal agreement on this, but I would certainly not rely on easement not applying to routes as described above. You are legally much more in the clear if you follow a route that is prohibited by an easement, if you are on the shortest route.

 

[alistairlees]

Well, it (Doncaster to Barton-on-Humber, via Hull) is the shortest route. At least if you count the bus leg as zero miles.

From a rather more practical point of view though, I don't think this fare is intended to be valid on this route (using the bus), given its pricing and the pricing of other fares in the area. And the negative easement is intended to ensure this is the case.

Though I'm not sure what is valid on the bus, or why it's in the data if there's nothing valid on it.

 

[clagmonster]

No rail tickets are valid on the bus. There are various tickets routed 'Humberlink not Bus' from Lincolnshire to East Yorkshire, for which the bus fare is to be paid separately or the passenger is to walk over the Humber Bridge.

For journeys from Barton (or Barrow Haven to avoid starting with an interchange) via York, Leeds or Cottingham the shortest route is via the bus, even counting the bus mileage as the mileage covered by the bus rather than zero, thus rail tickets are I believe valid via that route in line with the NRCOT, albeit with an additional fare paid on the bus.

There is a requirement for the connections with the bus to be advertised in the Northern franchise agreement, which will be the reason for the bus being in the data. Only the buses which connect with trains are in the data.

 

[clagmonster]

Do easements apply to routes which (might be) valid by virtue of being not 3 miles longer than the shortest route by rail?

The three mile rule appears only in the Routeing Guide, it is not enshrined in the NRCOT, thus I believe easements can apply to routes relying on it. Easements can't apply to the absolute shortest route as this route is valid in the NRCOT without reference to the routeing guide and hence the easements.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks clagmonster for the info about the "Humberlink not Bus" route and the suggestion about easement applicability.

 

[Paul Kelly]

For journeys from Barton (or Barrow Haven to avoid starting with an interchange) via York, Leeds or Cottingham the shortest route is via the bus, even counting the bus mileage as the mileage covered by the bus rather than zero, thus rail tickets are I believe valid via that route in line with the NRCOT, albeit with an additional fare paid on the bus.

I think I disagree with this; while I haven't checked the current wording of the NRCOT I would say it's only the shortest route by rail that's unequivocally valid without reference to the routeing guide and thus can't be overridden by a negative easement. For Barrow Haven to Leeds (for example) the shortest route by rail is via Barnetby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster and Wakefield. The route via the Humber bus is thus shorter than the shortest route by rail, making it (in my opinion) open to being overridden by a negative easement.

 

[JB_B]

I think I disagree with this; while I haven't checked the current wording of the NRCOT I would say it's only the shortest route by rail that's unequivocally valid without reference to the routeing guide and thus can't be overridden by a negative easement. For Barrow Haven to Leeds (for example) the shortest route by rail is via Barnetby, Scunthorpe, Doncaster and Wakefield. The route via the Humber bus is thus shorter than the shortest route by rail, making it (in my opinion) open to being overridden by a negative easement.

NRCOT refers to the shortest route by "scheduled passenger services"