DOO ECS moves in passenger service

[Melancholia]

I've always wondered why don't DOO ECS trains run in passenger service? I understand trains that require a guard or a train manager, but if it's DOO, why not use those moves as a fast service to another station? I also know some ECS runs require the trains to go through non-passenger lines, or be stabled at a siding for a short time before going back into service.

Thanks!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always wondered why don't DOO ECS trains run in passenger service? I understand trains that require a guard or a train manager, but if it's DOO, why not use those moves as a fast service to another station? I also know some ECS runs require the trains to go through non-passenger lines, or be stabled at a siding for a short time before going back into service.

They sometimes do. No DOO here, but the 0713ish (it varies each timetable by a minute or two either way for no apparent reason) Bletchley to Euston is a Tring semifast service that might as well run fast Bletchley-Tring in service rather than running ECS, because the unit and crew comes from Bletchley. I suspect if the Tring local services (this one isn't a stopper for some reason) end up on Crossrail this one will go away.

 

[87015]

It usually costs more in track (and station if applicable) access charges for a passenger train against ECS.

 

[Melancholia]

There are a lot of Class 3 DOO ECS runs on the LTV part of the GWML (Maidenhead/Twyford - Paddington). Most of them go direct into a Paddington platform, so I (and from the POV of a passenger) see this as a waste of a perfectly good non-stop service.

 

[Bromley boy]

I've always wondered why don't DOO ECS trains run in passenger service?

Looking at my TOC (and specifically DOO ECS moves) this is exactly what they do, wherever possible. There are some passenger services (usually counter-peak) with unusual stopping patterns which are clearly stock positioning moves running in passenger service to bolster the timetable.

ECS moves are kept to a minimum and typically:

- start or end at depots/stabling points (some originate ECS from a depot and go straight into passenger service at an intermediate station);

- may be booked to take longer than passenger services between point A and point B due to a choice of possible routes and waiting between stations;

- (as you have identified) may be booked to run via loops not usually used in passenger services;

- are movements of defective stock, unfit for passenger service, to maintenance depots/stabling points.

 

[infobleep]

Looking at my TOC, this is exactly what they do wherever possible. There are some passenger services (usually counter-peak) with unusual stopping patterns which are clearly stock positioning moves running in passenger service to bolster the timetable.

ECS moves are kept to a minimum and typically:

- start or end at depots/stabling points (some originate ECS from a depot and go straight into passenger service at an intermediate station);

- may be booked to take longer than passenger services between point A and point B due to a choice of possible routes and waiting between stations;

- (as you have identified) may be booked to run via loops not usually used in passenger services;

- are movements of defective stock, unfit for passenger service, to maintenance depots/stabling points.

I sometimes see 455s running fast on South West Train lines but I don't know if they just have hardly any or no passengers on board; are without a guard or a guard is on his break.

South West Trains did put some ECS trains into passenger service in the last couple of years. These were trains heading back to Woking in the morning.

Out of interest, would it be possible to extended 18.48 arrival into Woking so that it runs from Waterloo to Farnham rather than terminating at Woking? It's a stop service between Surbiton and Woking.

Currently it goes to Farnham Depot as an ECS beyond Woking but I don't know if their is still a guard on it who has hours they can work.

My reason for asking isn't to prove an additional train to Farnham, as there is an 1853 to Alton, but to speed up the departure of the train on platform 5. If the 18.41 arrival from Waterloo is running late and thus the 18.48 is also late, it can cause issues for the 18.52 arrival from London. This means one might miss the 18.58 to Portsmouth, which should use the he same platform but in some disruptions cam switch platforms or leapfrog the 18.52 arrival.

Before the 18.51 ECS can leave, all the doors have to be locked out of use and the train swept of people still on it, so I believe. By running to Farnham, this wouldn't be necessary. If they ran this train fast to Farnham, it wouldn't in theory delay the Alton train. Obviously if the Alton train left first it would get stuck behind it but as it isn't connecting with anything, being non stop to Farnham would be less of an issue.

But it would need a guard with hours spare.

 

[craigybagel]

My TOC isn't DOO (thankfully!) but we have a few jobs where Conductors travel on ECS movements. In every case, they either run at times when noone is likely to travel, or owing to them using diversion routes (which even on paper vary depending on the day of the week for route knowledge retention purposes and are routinely diverted due to engineering work anyway) trying to timetable them, and replace them with buses if required would be more hassle than it's worth. Also, if cross depot working is taking place with conductors then they may not be on the ECS.

 

[Bromley boy]

Out of interest, would it be possible to extended 18.48 arrival into Woking so that it runs from Waterloo to Farnham rather than terminating at Woking?

I'm unsure if your question was general or addressed to me. If the latter I wouldn't know, I'm afraid, I don't work for SWT!

 

[coxxy]

Have to remember that if a train is booked to run as ECS then network rail have a lot more flexibility with pathing when engineering works may affect the passage of trains. If it's an advertised service then network rail and the responsible TOC would have to supply alternative transport for people that would have caught the train, where as if engineering work meant an ECS train had to differ it's path or be stabled elsewhere then they only need to worry about re planning traincrew.

 

[TEW]

Out of interest, would it be possible to extended 18.48 arrival into Woking so that it runs from Waterloo to Farnham rather than terminating at Woking? It's a stop service between Surbiton and Woking.

Currently it goes to Farnham Depot as an ECS beyond Woking but I don't know if their is still a guard on it who has hours they can work.

My reason for asking isn't to prove an additional train to Farnham, as there is an 1853 to Alton, but to speed up the departure of the train on platform 5. If the 18.41 arrival from Waterloo is running late and thus the 18.48 is also late, it can cause issues for the 18.52 arrival from London. This means one might miss the 18.58 to Portsmouth, which should use the he same platform but in some disruptions cam switch platforms or leapfrog the 18.52 arrival.

Before the 18.51 ECS can leave, all the doors have to be locked out of use and the train swept of people still on it, so I believe. By running to Farnham, this wouldn't be necessary. If they ran this train fast to Farnham, it wouldn't in theory delay the Alton train. Obviously if the Alton train left first it would get stuck behind it but as it isn't connecting with anything, being non stop to Farnham would be less of an issue.

But it would need a guard with hours spare.

That ECS movement does have a guard on board. They and the driver have to go both go to Farnham to work the 19:58 back up to Waterloo. The arrival an hour later at Woking also goes ECS to Farnham with a guard. I've often thought it would make more sense for them to terminate at Farnham, where they are far more out the way.

Similarly there is a 22:08 arrival at Woking, an 8-car 455. This is given just 2 minutes before running ECS to Guildford. The same driver, guard and train then go back in to passenger service from Guildford to Waterloo. The time it takes at Woking often delays the 22:13 Portsmouth service.

 

[Starmill]

There are certainly some trains which probably could run in passenger service, such as SuO 3A45 1632 from Leeds to Harrogate. The previous train was at 1554 so I'm sure at least a few people would find it useful at that time of day.

 

[najaB]

I've always wondered why don't DOO ECS trains run in passenger service?

How would you know? If what would otherwise be a positioning move runs in passenger service, then it would just appear to be a passenger service. I reckon there are a lot of first/last services of the day that fit this category.

 

[TheEdge]

How would you know? If what would otherwise be a positioning move runs in passenger service, then it would just appear to be a passenger service. I reckon there are a lot of first/last services of the day that fit this category.

I think OPs point is simply why would a DOO operator ever run an ECS service when an ECS service already has a driver and a train. Many decent and truthful reasons have been given.

 

[GW43125]

Another reason I could think of for keeping some services ECS-isn't a turnaround time for empty to loaded a couple of mins shorter than loaded to loaded? Though of course if it's a long train that could be negated. I don't know.

 

[Melancholia]

The ECS runs I've had in mind are the ones in the LTV area. For instance:

1N40 16:09 PAD - MAI, arrives at MAI at 16:42, then departs as 3N40 MAI - PAD at 16:46.

It isn't going through non-passenger lines, and just chugs along the reliefs all the way to Paddington. It has a 4 min turnaround time at Maidenhead, so would be enough to pick up some passengers. Right behind it is a stopping service towards Paddington.

Also since the new timetable, due to the Marlow branch junction redesign, most through trains to Bourne End are terminating at Maidenhead, then running as ECS to either Paddington, or Reading. Another example:

1N44 17:42 PAD - MAI, with a 5 min turnaround time, then going back to Paddington as 3H62 18:19 MAI - PAD. Again, no non-passenger lines.

At Twyford, we have the same happening.

2H49 18:17 HOT - TWY mysteriously terminates at Twyford, then continuing as 3R77 18:33 TWY - PAD.

Later, we have this:

1N52 18:42 PAD - MAI, which normally terminated on Pl.3 at Maidenhead (unsure why it was routed onto P4 that day, maybe due to the signalling problem at Paddington causing delays to trains coming out of London), which is the platform that goes towards Reading anyways. It then turns into 5N52 19:18 MAI - RDG. This example I don't understand the most, since it doesn't need to be turned around, and continues to Reading anyways, but not in passenger service past Maidenhead.

Another example of a Henley-on-Thames - Twyford, then to Paddington as ECS:

2H53 19:18 HOT - TWY & 3P10 19:32 TWY - PAD

That concludes the PM Peak examples I have that caused me to start this thread.

From the view of a passenger, it's just strange that if I wanted to travel to London from Henley, I need to change at Twyford, even though the train continues onwards to Paddington anyway.

 

[racklam]

This http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W33120/2017/02/17/advanced used to be an ECS. I'm not sure when exactly it switched but good to see SWT putting it into passenger service.

I suspect it's also the only train to stop at North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes but not Wandsworth Town. Presumably by Putney the ex-Reading train behind it has nearly caught up.

 

[Deepgreen]

How would you know? If what would otherwise be a positioning move runs in passenger service, then it would just appear to be a passenger service. I reckon there are a lot of first/last services of the day that fit this category.

Presumably by whether it appears in the timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

The ECS runs I've had in mind are the ones in the LTV area...

From the view of a passenger, it's just strange that if I wanted to travel to London from Henley, I need to change at Twyford, even though the train continues onwards to Paddington anyway.

Isn't it likely to be an advance change for when the mainline part of the service switches to EMU operation? What seems odd now may become quite logical over the course of this year...

 

[6Gman]

Just a thought but if you've got ... say

a 1710 Paddington - Reading 1800

which then returns ECS at 1804 to Paddington 1845

to form an

1855 Paddington - Maidenhead

Could running the Up train ECS be to minimise the chance of delay?

No passengers - no TPI, no fares arguments, no chance of passenger being taken ill etc etc

(Not familiar with detail of that route so timings plucked out of the air)

 

[swt_passenger]

This http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W33120/2017/02/17/advanced used to be an ECS. I'm not sure when exactly it switched but good to see SWT putting it into passenger service.

I suspect it's also the only train to stop at North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes but not Wandsworth Town. Presumably by Putney the ex-Reading train behind it has nearly caught up.

An odd example, a few years ago SWT took an afternoon service that ran ECS from Southampton to Havant (to provide a Waterloo service), and turned it into a passenger service from Fareham to Waterloo via Havant. According to the track access application at the time, this was to help the signallers out - because they had sometimes misrouted the ECS at Cosham.

There was another early service around two or three years ago that had originally run ECS to Ascot from Clapham Jn before heading off to Aldershot or Guildford, and I think that was initially brought into passenger use from Richmond to Ascot, and later from Clapham Jn (and possibly now even Waterloo).

Obviously these aren't DOO, but the basic principle of 'warming up ECS' is the same; I think there's quite a few more similar that have happened during this franchise, even as far as Weymouth...

 

[najaB]

Presumably by whether it appears in the timetable.

What I meant was that there are likely already a lot of services that would be ECS moves in guarded-territory but run on service in DOO-land. The one that don't are for the reasons listed already.

 

[bunnahabhain]

A lot of old Regional Railways ECS runs now operate as passenger services due to the allocation of 15x counting ECS mileage against regions. So you have such unusual services like the 0456 Nottingham to Norwich via Loughborough (really just for Stamford commuters onwards), the 0510 Nottingham to Spalding via Grantham, and your 0538 Nottingham to Leicester, which is fast to Loughborough. A lot of these used to run ECS but now carry a handful of passengers and take little extra time to run. In recent years the first Lincoln to Sleaford was changes from ECS to a fast passenger run at the suggestion of a Lincoln guard as it wouldn't cost any extra to run but added benefits to getting to Sleaford, Grantham and Boston.

 

[Class 170101]

Just a thought but if you've got ... say

a 1710 Paddington - Reading 1800

which then returns ECS at 1804 to Paddington 1845

to form an

1855 Paddington - Maidenhead

Could running the Up train ECS be to minimise the chance of delay?

No passengers - no TPI, no fares arguments, no chance of passenger being taken ill etc etc

(Not familiar with detail of that route so timings plucked out of the air)

Arguably I would say the opposite. Running in service back to London means station staff don't have to check the train and throw off any sleepers, drunks etc to allow the ECS to depart.

 

[xotGD]

As was discussed in another thread, the ecs off the KX - Skipton is platformed at Leeds, so could run as an express passenger for anyone who has had an evening out in Skipton.

 

[Class 170101]

As was discussed in another thread, the ecs off the KX - Skipton is platformed at Leeds, so could run as an express passenger for anyone who has had an evening out in Skipton.

Wrong train operator so the other would complain of revenue abstraction.

 

[infobleep]

I'm unsure if your question was general or addressed to me. If the latter I wouldn't know, I'm afraid, I don't work for SWT!

It was general question.

 

[infobleep]

That ECS movement does have a guard on board. They and the driver have to go both go to Farnham to work the 19:58 back up to Waterloo. The arrival an hour later at Woking also goes ECS to Farnham with a guard. I've often thought it would make more sense for them to terminate at Farnham, where they are far more out the way.

Similarly there is a 22:08 arrival at Woking, an 8-car 455. This is given just 2 minutes before running ECS to Guildford. The same driver, guard and train then go back in to passenger service from Guildford to Waterloo. The time it takes at Woking often delays the 22:13 Portsmouth service.

Thanks

 

[infobleep]

An odd example, a few years ago SWT took an afternoon service that ran ECS from Southampton to Havant (to provide a Waterloo service), and turned it into a passenger service from Fareham to Waterloo via Havant. According to the track access application at the time, this was to help the signallers out - because they had sometimes misrouted the ECS at Cosham.

There was another early service around two or three years ago that had originally run ECS to Ascot from Clapham Jn before heading off to Aldershot or Guildford, and I think that was initially brought into passenger use from Richmond to Ascot, and later from Clapham Jn (and possibly now even Waterloo).

Obviously these aren't DOO, but the basic principle of 'warming up ECS' is the same; I think there's quite a few more similar that have happened during this franchise, even as far as Weymouth...

That train use to start at Clapham Junction but it's now Waterloo. I think it changed in the December timetable.

 

[Ianno87]

What I meant was that there are likely already a lot of services that would be ECS moves in guarded-territory but run on service in DOO-land. The one that don't are for the reasons listed already.

Good examples would be the 0803 and 0833 Liverpool Street-Cambridge - basically the back workings of the 0647 and 0717 Cambridge-Liverpool Street peak workings. They run in passenger service despite not really filling any real demand need (but they appear to ply a half decent trade in cheapo contra-peak advances for tourists on a day out to Cambridge - and still bags of room on the 12-car formations).

Of the equivalent return workings for the evening peak only one of the two works from Cambridge in passenger service (that for the 1807 ex-Liverpool St, off Cambridge about 1640). The stock for the 1737 runs as a Class 3 ECS all the way - because it has an elongated stop in Platform 1 at Broxbourne to alllow a Stansted Express to overtake, and is too long for the 8-car platform.

 

[Andyh82]

As was discussed in another thread, the ecs off the KX - Skipton is platformed at Leeds, so could run as an express passenger for anyone who has had an evening out in Skipton.

One issue, could be on occasions when the Skipton is cancelled at Leeds, you've currently got one partial cancellation on the books, if the ECS ran in service you've got one partial and one full cancellation. Also applies to late running performance stats.

Also could there be any crewing rota related issues with the on board train crew having to work an in service move rather than (not) working an ECS?