Door controls: Do they do anything?

[edwin_m]

I like the door controls on the M5000 trams in Manchester and suggest that a lot of suburban rail stock could copy them.

You can push the open button at any time. It then flashes, and that door opens when released. Obviously, if you push it after the door is released, it opens immediately.

It means I can put down luggage, push the button and then pick it up again and have it in hand when the door opens so I don't block the doors picking stuff up after pushing the button.

It's a very good feature, shared by various Continental trams (the door button often also requests a stop) but no others in Britain as far as I know. But it does create a hazard. If the driver (or, on a train, the guard) opens the doors on the wrong side then no accident normally results unless a passenger also presses the "door open" button. However with this feature the door will open if someone has pressed the button previously.

A similar situation in respect of someone leaning on the door is probably why door controls on more recent trains don't operate if someone is holding the button down as they are released, but older trains do.

 

[po8crg]

Ah right. I think the side that the doors release is controlled by TMS on the trams, not by the driver pushing the correct button.

 

[MisterT]

I like the door controls on the M5000 trams in Manchester and suggest that a lot of suburban rail stock could copy them.

You can push the open button at any time. It then flashes, and that door opens when released. Obviously, if you push it after the door is released, it opens immediately.

It means I can put down luggage, push the button and then pick it up again and have it in hand when the door opens so I don't block the doors picking stuff up after pushing the button.

This is also used on the Stadler FLIRT and GTW trains, but the driver needs to select the side of the next platform for this feature to work.

 

[greaterwest]

I trust you do a bit more than just wait for the interlock light to illuminate. The driver of a DOO train carrying out self despatch is responsible for carrying out the same train safety check a guard or member of platform staff would.


Yes, it's an issue affecting Networker stock, and happened in the trap & drag incident at West Wickham.

The door controls on the GWR networkers are slowly being replaced with a safer system. I don't know what the plans are for the SE/GN ones.

 

[HLE]

Surely that's most non doo trains?

This.

Sprinter/Pacers to name two, I could go on....

 

[KingDaveRa]

I'm amazed just how varied the door controls can be. I'd honestly have assumed there'd be a few standards over the years, but it honestly seems pretty random.

 

[dgl]

This.





Sprinter/Pacers to name two, I could go on....

And of course all SWT stock.

 

[u10207420]

Ah right. I think the side that the doors release is controlled by TMS on the trams, not by the driver pushing the correct button.

No, the driver selects the appropriate side upon stopping and the opposite side if any buttons had been pressed, the lights stop flashing therefore not opening when that side is released in due course ...

 

[HLE]

And of course all SWT stock.

And our desiro's up here. In fact all of LM as far as I know.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Central Trains 170s had internal "Close" as well as "Open" buttons but these had stickers saying they were for staff use only. I assume this was to get round a mis-wording in the RVAR regulations, which made it illegal for the hustle alarm to sound if the door was closed by a passenger.

This was because Adtranz designed them with the Close button too high for the RVAR regs. and couldn't be reached by a passenger in a wheelchair. Subsequently a formal derogation was issued allowing them to be used.

 

[talltim]

One thing that amuses/annoys me is the way the open and close buttons are in different positions on 220/221s and 222s. Can't remember which way round it is, but one has open at the top and the other close at the top. I use both for my commute and am forever pressing the wrong one.

 

[43074]

One thing that amuses/annoys me is the way the open and close buttons are in different positions on 220/221s and 222s. Can't remember which way round it is, but one has open at the top and the other close at the top. I use both for my commute and am forever pressing the wrong one.

Did that on a 220 at Leeds recently after using quite a few 222s in the days before - 222s have the open button above the close button and 220s/221s are the opposite. As I say, I only noticed when the passenger behind me pressed the correct button, needless to say I made a rather quick exit

 

[greaterwest]

Did that on a 220 at Leeds recently after using quite a few 222s in the days before - 222s have the open button above the close button and 220s/221s are the opposite. As I say, I only noticed when the passenger behind me pressed the correct button, needless to say I made a rather quick exit

Not as bad as a few years ago when I was on a First Capital Connect service, I didn't really care for trains back then, I was hammering the close button when someone was trying to press the open button outside (I only realised it was the wrong one when the doors closed immediately after opening) at West Hampstead Thameslink I believe!

 

[BestWestern]

Small things can get caught as well, and you still get the interlock. Once, in the pouring rain at Swanwick, I'd just pushed the doors close button, when a punter ran onto the platform, holding a umbrella out in front. The doors closed on the umbrella, holding it in the door, sticking out at about chest height. The Bil (interlock) light went out. If I'd not seen the brolly sticking out as I was only one coach away, we could have gone, with it sticking out. I got the driver to release the doors, whence the brolly then fell on the track. Passenger (very posh and in an evening suit), complained that I called him an idiot. I said that anyone the other side of the door could have been injured by you running brolly pointy end first. :roll:

This, of course, is the weakness of the Driver closing doors system; those situations where a re-release is required. Time consuming at best, and potentially damaging to safety if it's a person trapped as opposed to an object. I often watch Voyagers being dispatched wondering what happens when a latecomer does the inevitable 'door charge' and gets trapped. TM can see it happening but, rather than simply hitting the release buttons, presumably has to send some sort of convoluted buzzer code to the Driver, who has to then respond and press his buttons, meanwhile somebody has a limb going slowly purple... Indeed, is there any official buzzer code for 're-release power doors' on stock where the Guard can't do it?

 

[rebmcr]

I like the door controls on the M5000 trams in Manchester and suggest that a lot of suburban rail stock could copy them.

You can push the open button at any time. It then flashes, and that door opens when released. Obviously, if you push it after the door is released, it opens immediately.

It means I can put down luggage, push the button and then pick it up again and have it in hand when the door opens so I don't block the doors picking stuff up after pushing the button.

It's a very good feature, shared by various Continental trams (the door button often also requests a stop) but no others in Britain as far as I know. But it does create a hazard. If the driver (or, on a train, the guard) opens the doors on the wrong side then no accident normally results unless a passenger also presses the "door open" button. However with this feature the door will open if someone has pressed the button previously.

A similar situation in respect of someone leaning on the door is probably why door controls on more recent trains don't operate if someone is holding the button down as they are released, but older trains do.

DLR trains (both types) open doors as soon as they are released if the button is being held down.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, it's an issue affecting Networker stock, and happened in the trap & drag incident at West Wickham.

I had a set of doors open on a 365 this week when the train arrived. Nobody was on the other side, which confused me for a second. After boarding, I pressed the close button, it started to close, then swung open after about a second.

Probably a problem with the door open button somehow making a connection by itself.

Certainly these trains have the issue where you can open the doors just before the driver closes them, meaning they'll swing back at some force!

It wasn't a refurbished 365 so I don't know if they've changed this on the ones with the newer 'buttons' on the doors and the new door open sound.

I'm amazed just how varied the door controls can be. I'd honestly have assumed there'd be a few standards over the years, but it honestly seems pretty random.

I thought newer trains had the open button lower down for accessibility reasons, but I'm sure I've seen new/refurbished stock which still has open above?

 

[edwin_m]

Certainly these trains have the issue where you can open the doors just before the driver closes them, meaning they'll swing back at some force!

Sounds like the issue behind the West Wickham accident.

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/serious-accident-at-west-wickham-station

I thought newer trains had the open button lower down for accessibility reasons, but I'm sure I've seen new/refurbished stock which still has open above?

Certainly the original 170s had the open button below the close, in a panel with a plastic bezel round each button which meant they had to be quite far apart. I assume this was so wheelchair users could reach the "open" whereas the "close" was less important, although a post further up suggests that the rules require both buttons to be reachable from a wheelchair.

Later series 170s had a re-designed panel with no bezels and the buttons closer together, and on these the "open" was moved back to the top which is probably where most people would expect to find it.

 

[jon0844]

Sounds like the issue behind the West Wickham accident.

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/serious-accident-at-west-wickham-station

I wonder if the 365s have had this modified on the 'proper' refurbs? I guess I'll have to try next time I'm on one.

 

[rebmcr]

I thought newer trains had the open button lower down for accessibility reasons, but I'm sure I've seen new/refurbished stock which still has open above?

357s have them in either arrangement, depending on the subclass.

 

[tsr]

A similar situation in respect of someone leaning on the door is probably why door controls on more recent trains don't operate if someone is holding the button down as they are released, but older trains do.

Except, of course, the 377/6 and /7 series units, upon which the doors will open once the driver releases them if you are holding down/leaning on the button. This is in contrast to their older cousins where this doesn't happen.

On 377s, the driver can also use an "All Release" control which both releases and opens all the sets of doors on the selected side, but this is generally not used due to the risk of passengers who are leaning on the doors then falling out. A different hustle alarm is used for this feature.

This, of course, is the weakness of the Driver closing doors system; those situations where a re-release is required. Time consuming at best, and potentially damaging to safety if it's a person trapped as opposed to an object. I often watch Voyagers being dispatched wondering what happens when a latecomer does the inevitable 'door charge' and gets trapped. TM can see it happening but, rather than simply hitting the release buttons, presumably has to send some sort of convoluted buzzer code to the Driver, who has to then respond and press his buttons, meanwhile somebody has a limb going slowly purple... Indeed, is there any official buzzer code for 're-release power doors' on stock where the Guard can't do it?

It's not that time consuming. Provided the guard/conductor is near a cab-to-cab phone, they simply have to pick it up and ask the driver to re-release. This takes a few seconds at most. I don't think I've ever heard of a limb turning purple in such a situation! On most Bombardier stock the doors will bounce back open to release obstructions a lot smaller than limbs, anyway. I'm not sure about Voyagers but it does apply to Tube stock, Electrostars and Turbostars. The real risk is small stuff like small fingers or coat sleeves getting trapped in the door seals.

You could use the bell code "3-3-1" but I've never used it or witnessed it being used. It's a lot less confusing to just ask the driver verbally. So long as a clear understanding is reached, and you're not controlling the movement of the train by phone, there should not be a problem.

 

[Starmill]

It's a risk, yes, but clearly not that much of an increased risk because the driver of an M5000 can and often will simply open all of the doors at busy stops, rather than just release the buttons. This can help to reduce dwell time. Furthermore, trains are still rolling out of the factory with the ability to hold the door button down, including 380s.

 

[BestWestern]

Except, of course, the 377/6 and /7 series units, upon which the doors will open once the driver releases them if you are holding down/leaning on the button. This is in contrast to their older cousins where this doesn't happen.

On 377s, the driver can also use an "All Release" control which both releases and opens all the sets of doors on the selected side, but this is generally not used due to the risk of passengers who are leaning on the doors then falling out. A different hustle alarm is used for this feature.



It's not that time consuming. Provided the guard/conductor is near a cab-to-cab phone, they simply have to pick it up and ask the driver to re-release. This takes a few seconds at most. I don't think I've ever heard of a limb turning purple in such a situation! On most Bombardier stock the doors will bounce back open to release obstructions a lot smaller than limbs, anyway. I'm not sure about Voyagers but it does apply to Tube stock, Electrostars and Turbostars. The real risk is small stuff like small fingers or coat sleeves getting trapped in the door seals.

You could use the bell code "3-3-1" but I've never used it or witnessed it being used. It's a lot less confusing to just ask the driver verbally. So long as a clear understanding is reached, and you're not controlling the movement of the train by phone, there should not be a problem.

I'm not aware of Voyagers having a phone at any of the door positions, though? However you do it, it's nothing like as quick as hitting the buttons as soon as you spot an issue!

 

[edwin_m]

Except, of course, the 377/6 and /7 series units, upon which the doors will open once the driver releases them if you are holding down/leaning on the button. This is in contrast to their older cousins where this doesn't happen.

Not having regularly (or quite possibly ever) used these I'm interested to know that thanks. I wonder if this was a conscious decision by Bombardier or they simply got a new designer who did it differently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a risk, yes, but clearly not that much of an increased risk because the driver of an M5000 can and often will simply open all of the doors at busy stops, rather than just release the buttons. This can help to reduce dwell time. Furthermore, trains are still rolling out of the factory with the ability to hold the door button down, including 380s.

Yes it's not a huge increased risk, though probably more on a railway than a tramway because the consequences of falling out are probably worse. Someone may have done some sort of Risk Assessment and decided it's not worth worrying about, or, again, it could just be a case of a different designer.

 

[casualobserver]

I'm not aware of Voyagers having a phone at any of the door positions, though? However you do it, it's nothing like as quick as hitting the buttons as soon as you spot an issue!

Whilst not technically a phone on a Voyager, door panels which contain a guards key switch have a small microphone built into it. When the guard is 'keyed in' it automatically turns the mircophone live and is directly heard by the driver, so if a situation occurs which requires the doors to be re-released in a trapping incident this can be one very speadily by verbal communication.

 

[tsr]

I'm not aware of Voyagers having a phone at any of the door positions, though? However you do it, it's nothing like as quick as hitting the buttons as soon as you spot an issue!

I must admit I'm surprised by phones not being provided. That would prove a major hindrance to several other things such as confirming with the driver that they have received authority to pass a signal at danger when dispatching.

I agree about door release controls being better. Doubly so if you have no verbal communication for doors to be released!

EDIT: Just seen the post above. That makes more sense, although it doesn't sound like a very conventional piece of kit.

 

[Trog]

Watching the unaware try to figure out the location of the door controls to exit a Mk3 coach can be amusing.