Doors closing - your views on the behaviour of a guard

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tubenutter

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Hi, I've been a member of these forums for a while and used to post but haven't done for years - so I doubt any of you will remember me!

Anyway, I was at Birmingham New Street a few weeks ago and saw a man try and jump on to a train (I think it was a CrossCountry Voyager, but the details are a little hazy as it was a few weeks ago and I was rushing somewhere myself) as the door was closing. It was the door that the guard was standing in, and the guard appeared to push the man back onto the platform as he was jumping through the door. I was quite surprised at this, so I wonder what your views are on the guard's actions?

I'm unsure about my opinion - on the one hand, there is a risk that the person jumping onto the train could get trapped in the door which would (as well as delaying the service) probably cause injury. Also, it is possible that the man could have knocked the guard over when jumping onto the train so pushing him may have been an act of self-defense. On the other hand, the passenger could have ended up with one leg falling down the gap, or landing badly on the platform causing injury. It also seems a bit of a personal risk to the guard, as if such an injury had occurred, I imagine he would have been on dodgy ground legally.

Anyway, I'm not meaning to judge the guard on his actions (I'm sure his actions were 'in the moment' and he may well have regretted them afterwards, and either way I'm not sure myself what I would have done - both options seem justifiable in some senses). I just wondered what some of you would do (particularly if you work in the industry yourselves) in this situation.

Jonny
 
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Urban Gateline

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I've never heard anything like that happen before, seems a bit OTT if that's really how the Guard reacted, down here in SWT land you would just shout "stand away", although that doesn't always work. Many power doors are not that strong and can be forced back open, although this is for safety reasons, I think it'd be better to have ones shutting hard to give people a lesson that you don't board when the doors are closing!
 

michael769

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Are you sure the guard actually pushed?

Perhaps the rushing commuter has not noticed the guard and bumped into him and then caught by surprise stumbled back off the train?
 

455driver

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I was at Clapham jn and actually saw a bloke try and jump on just as the doors closed but he was a bit late and ended up in a heap on the platform!

I had tears rolling down my face all the way to Waterloo.:lol:
 

Urban Gateline

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I was at Clapham jn and actually saw a bloke try and jump on just as the doors closed but he was a bit late and ended up in a heap on the platform!

I had tears rolling down my face all the way to Waterloo.:lol:
:lol:It's stupid to do anyway as trains run every few minutes out of there, he was probably aiming for a Waterloo or Suburban bound train which run so frequently that it's not a biggie to wait for the next one!
 

EM2

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If it was a Voyager, I would assume that the guard is at the crew door, by the rear cab.
In that case, if the passenger boards through that door, he is in breach of Byelaw 10, section 2:
10. Trains

(2) No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by that person.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I wasn't sure of that, would it be classed as an automatic door?
The wording 'automatic closing' implies to me that whilst the mechanism of opening may be manual (press a button) the door may close without the person attempting to pass through the door doing anything. The door being closed will do so by a motor, rather than some kind of manual means.
 

Eagle

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... the door may close without the person attempting to pass through the door doing anything.
Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the train's about to leave; some newer trains' doors are set to close if they've been left open for more than three minutes, so it's not uncommon for single doors to close of their own accord during long layovers (eg XC at BHM). Not sure the byelaw was designed with this in mind.
 

Minilad

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You would be surprised at how many times people try to get on or off while doors are closing. Usually buggering up the door and adding a couple of minutes while we get it shut again
 

ralphchadkirk

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Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the train's about to leave; some newer trains' doors are set to close if they've been left open for more than three minutes, so it's not uncommon for single doors to close of their own accord during long layovers (eg XC at BHM). Not sure the byelaw was designed with this in mind.
Perhaps not, but the bylaw applies nonetheless. If you press the button then the door will still open, negating 10(5) anyway.
 

rdwarr

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When I was a teenager in the 1970s I remember running for a Waterloo and City train (when they were BR) and getting to the platform just as the doors closed. The driver waved me over and gave me a lift in his cab. I even stayed on for the bit where it went out the back of Waterloo and back in to the other platform.

How times change.
 

Ferret

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Hi, I've been a member of these forums for a while and used to post but haven't done for years - so I doubt any of you will remember me!

Anyway, I was at Birmingham New Street a few weeks ago and saw a man try and jump on to a train (I think it was a CrossCountry Voyager, but the details are a little hazy as it was a few weeks ago and I was rushing somewhere myself) as the door was closing. It was the door that the guard was standing in, and the guard appeared to push the man back onto the platform as he was jumping through the door. I was quite surprised at this, so I wonder what your views are on the guard's actions?

I'm unsure about my opinion - on the one hand, there is a risk that the person jumping onto the train could get trapped in the door which would (as well as delaying the service) probably cause injury. Also, it is possible that the man could have knocked the guard over when jumping onto the train so pushing him may have been an act of self-defense. On the other hand, the passenger could have ended up with one leg falling down the gap, or landing badly on the platform causing injury. It also seems a bit of a personal risk to the guard, as if such an injury had occurred, I imagine he would have been on dodgy ground legally.

Anyway, I'm not meaning to judge the guard on his actions (I'm sure his actions were 'in the moment' and he may well have regretted them afterwards, and either way I'm not sure myself what I would have done - both options seem justifiable in some senses). I just wondered what some of you would do (particularly if you work in the industry yourselves) in this situation.

Jonny
I've only been in this position once and it was kind of an instinctive thing to put a hand forward as the guy was running straight at me as the door was shutting - put simply I think if I hadn't he'd have bowled me over and injured me! If it's the same as what happened to me, I'd say the Guard just acted instinctively without thinking and hasn't really done anything wrong.
 

Muzer

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Offtopic, I know, but speaking of doors, would it really hurt them to put sensors on the in-carriage sliding doors on Voyagers? It's not very nice if you stand in one (through choice or being pushed if there's a big queue waiting to get off) and the door is crushing you and your hand is desperately hitting it hoping to find the open button :p
 

455driver

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:lol:It's stupid to do anyway as trains run every few minutes out of there, he was probably aiming for a Waterloo or Suburban bound train which run so frequently that it's not a biggie to wait for the next one!
It was a Saturday, my (4 coach) train on platform 10 and we were indeed Waterloo bound, he ran up the stairs and the hustle alarm sounded so he ran for it and got it wrong, the next train was 3 minutes behind us.
 

313103

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This is a common theme on class 378s, if someone try's to get on the door that i am working at and ive turned the key to shut the door. I will put my hand out to stop them, if they attempt to still get on and stop the door from closing i will push them back onto the platform.

Harsh i know but i am the one who has to answer for any delay, and for any injury caused to passengers. If the passenger is not hurt, i will continue obviously if the passenger is hurt then i call for assistance. The latter has so far not occured.
 

455driver

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Offtopic, I know, but speaking of doors, would it really hurt them to put sensors on the in-carriage sliding doors on Voyagers? It's not very nice if you stand in one (through choice or being pushed if there's a big queue waiting to get off) and the door is crushing you and your hand is desperately hitting it hoping to find the open button :p
Dont stand in the doorway then, wait until the train stops, the outer doors will be opened by the other passengers and then there will be room for you to open the vestibule door and get off.

Why do you have to stand in the doorway anyway?
 

Urban Gateline

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It was a Saturday, my (4 coach) train on platform 10 and we were indeed Waterloo bound, he ran up the stairs and the hustle alarm sounded so he ran for it and got it wrong, the next train was 3 minutes behind us.
Just as I suspected, a pointless and impatient act! It wouldn't have hurt him to wait a few minutes! I bet he cursed at the Guard aswell because he was obviously a VIP for whom the train should wait! <D
 

Zoe

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If it was a Voyager, I would assume that the guard is at the crew door, by the rear cab.
I have never seen a Voyager guard use the cab door when dispatching the train. Every time I've seem a Voyager the guard has been at one of the ordinary train doors.
 

Muzer

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Dont stand in the doorway then, wait until the train stops, the outer doors will be opened by the other passengers and then there will be room for you to open the vestibule door and get off.

Why do you have to stand in the doorway anyway?
Because if a load of people get up at once, you're not always aware you're standing in a doorway until the door starts to close (you're more likely concentrating on what you need to do when you get off the train), and by then it's to late - there are already too many people behind you for you to be able to nudge backwards.
 

507 001

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I've seen something very similar to this occur before at Liverpool Lime street.
I was on the last train out one night. The Guard on the service seemed relatively friendly until it came to departure time, she shut the train doors as normal (a 156 BTW).
As she stepped back onto the train a passenger appeared (Female, A little intoxicated) and tried to step onto the train through the still open local door. The guard shouted "NO!" and literally shoved her back onto the platform. The woman obviosuly protested and was told basically to bugger off, she was too late and the doors were shut. This was the LAST train. By the time she had explained to the poor woman, who was by now in floods of tears, she may as well have just let her on.

The passenger got on in the end as the unit had a fault and wouldn't move. She spent the entire journey home in floods of tears cursing the guard. The train left 10 minutes late in the end.
 

Pumbaa

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If it was a Voyager, I would assume that the guard is at the crew door, by the rear cab.
In that case, if the passenger boards through that door, he is in breach of Byelaw 10, section 2:
I'm fairly sure guards can't dispatch from the crew doors anyway. All sliding doors on the Voyagers are available to all, the only 'crew' doors are the cabs. They're not like 180s, 222s or 390s which have dedicated crew doors.

The TM tends to be at the FC end unless mid ticket check or strategically positioned for key stations near the platform entrance/exit.
 

ls1911

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Ive had it many times where ive been standing time for a couple of minutes at a station,go to close the doors&someone jumps off at the last possible second!
&literally been knocked backwards once by a passenger who was determined to get on my train even though the doors were closing! Even though they only went 1 stop&there was another train 2mins behind!
 
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