Doors not released for nearly 40 minutes at Clapham Junction

[DEAN MURPHY]

Hi all
I was on the 16.13 Clapham junction (to Stratford I think) on Friday. The train departed a few minutes late, but as soon as we pulled out, the brakes came on and we came to a halt.
To cut a long story short, we were literally trapped inside the train for nearly 40 minutes. Totally on the platform too.
The train was full and passengers were trying to get attention of the 3 members of staff outside who clearly were ignoring us inside! The driver tried 3 times to reboot but no information was given at any time as to why we were there and not able or given the option to get out.
Eventually the door in the first carriage was released and we all disembarked through that nearly 40 minutes later.

Now my question is this...
Why after 10 minutes were the doors not opened and give passengers the opportunity to leave the clearly failed train ? If the reason was because the train had completely failed and electrics not working to at least open the doors, this would make these units clearly a health and safety risk/issue as passengers were stuck in it, so if there was a fire we would have a major issue!!
The staff had no idea what to do. They were walking around like headless chickens without a clue.
When we eventually got out and the only member of staff on the platform surrounded by passengers we were told that platform staff were not even allowed to touch the train and multiple requests had been made for the driver to open the doors but didn’t.

I find it appalling this could happen and the lack of professionalism with all staff concerned.
The unit was 378216

At least with slam door stock you could get out!

 

[Jonfun]

Some problems you wouldn't be able to diagnose with the doors released. Though if only one door was used to detrain passengers when the service was finally cancelled, why would they do that if they could just open all of them? My guess would be whatever the fault was with also precluded a door release.

But it should be communicated to passengers what the problem is and what's going on, with regular updates. Our lot expect traincrew to make an announcement within two minutes.

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

Hi Jonfun
There was no announcements except the driver after 15 minutes to literally say it wil be 5 minutes. This turned into 40!
Nothing to say what the issue was or what was hsppennning at any point. No doors could open except the 1st carriage in the end

 

[a_c_skinner]

If there is a fault that absolutely prevents door release then that class is not fit for service. I assume the actual position was that passengers were kept locked in to facilitate the return to service of that set, which is not acceptable.

 

[Fincra5]

Hi Jonfun
There was no announcements except the driver after 15 minutes to literally say it wil be 5 minutes. This turned into 40!
Nothing to say what the issue was or what was hsppennning at any point. No doors could open except the 1st carriage in the end

I would imagine the driver was quite preoccupied trying to diagnose and fix the issue.

The problem you also face is that driver might have been "on the phone" to thsir fleet control to get instructions. The handset used for the GSM-R (Train Radio - to contact the likes of the Signaller and Control) is the same used for making PAs. So if its in use it on the GSM-R its not possible to make a PA.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

After 10 minutes and you know you’re not going anywhere just open the door yourself if the train is still at the platform. It’s easy to do. Just pull the green handle. If a jobsworth on the platform says anything just tell them were to go. That’s what I do. I don’t like being treated worse then cattle.

 

[Val3ntine]

After 10 minutes and you know you’re not going anywhere just open the door yourself if the train is still at the platform. It’s easy to do. Just pull the green handle. If a jobsworth on the platform says anything just tell them were to go. That’s what I do. I don’t like being treated worse then cattle.

Don’t get me wrong I empathise with what you are saying, no one should be felt like they’re trapped and especially on a platform why shouldn’t they be let off.
But what I do have a bit of beef with, actually a lot of beef with, is that you are not staff, what right do you have to instruct or even advise people to do such an action? Okay you do it, well done, not something you should brag about really because you are the reason that will potentially delay thousands of people further where it might not have been needed. What if the train was ready to get going again shortly, then you decide to pull the green handle. Everyone else was waiting patiently, why because they want to get to where they are going. Their patience is soon about to pay off and there you go pulling the handle causing an already stressed driver even more unneccesary stress and more than likely causing a minimum of another 20 mins delay unneeded (lewisham incident is an example of knock on delays of one person’s actions just like yourself) And you are now advising others to do the same? I really do hope everyone reading sees past the little box what you see and ignores you. Why stop at a platform, maybe just pull that green handle when stopped across live tracks.
I’m not condoning passengers being stuck on trains for hours at all, but I just had to say something about people being advised to egress I do hope no one has taken this poster seriously honestly it’s so dangerous.
Can I just add most trains do not put the brakes on when a door is opened it simply loses power, in fact some don’t even do that. So imagine this exact incident driver is ready to get going, opens the power just when someone decides to follow this advice to “just pull the green handle”, it’s going to be horribly messy and not for the train that’s for sure. Unnecessary death/life changing injury and misery for muliple members of families as well as witnesses and for what, because someone decided to advice people to “just pull the green handle”

 

[Val3ntine]

Wow and I just realised you said “after 10 minutes” lol. I think with this attitude it’s best you stay away from the railway my friend you’re not going to help yourself as well as hundreds of thousands of other poor commuters and travellers.
Since this is the season for dishing advice, I’d strongly advise you drive or use other forms of transport if this is really your attitude of thinking. At least this advice wont get you killed

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

The passengers were not calm at all. After 20 minutes of no commmunication they were banging on the windows and doors to get attention from the staff who constantly ignore everyone and stood on the platform in front of the carriages!
No help was given or advised at all. When one eventually came over to the doors a customer asked what the issue was and asked if the doors could be opened please to which the reply was, sorry I can’t hear you. We have asked for the doors to be opened. Why did he reply to the question if he didn’t hear?!!!

Over 40 minutes in a train not able to get out COMPLETELY ON A PLATFORM is not acceptable under any circumstances and there is no excuse for this. If trains are being made to ‘high modern standards’ And doors cannot be opened when there is a complete failure then something is seriously wrong. Period.

 

[Val3ntine]

I’m just employed to make sure you guys get to where you’re going safe. You want to advise people to take matters into their own hands then expect responses like mine.

I get what you are saying it’s a sh***y situation and it’s been discussed to death on here that more needs to be done in these situations. Everyone agrees, staff inclusive. I’m not going to go into discussion as to how long is acceptable to have to wait in these situations. My personal opinion is that any amount of time is too long, I wish all trains always ran smoothly without delay, but they don’t.

I just don't understand the other poster thinks it’s okay to boast that they pull the egress handle whenever they are delayed on platforms, not only that but advising others to do the same. I’m just saying if every single person followed that amazing suggestion there would barely be a railway for you to travel on in the first place. Everytime there’s a delay leaving a platform and doors are not released then thousands of passengers always pull egresses? It’s watering down just how dangerous an action it is to be honest, soon it will be treated like the normal door open/close buttons if everyone thought like that.

There is already this attitude on buses come to think of it, I don’t even think people ask bus drivers anymore if they can exit the bus in traffic. The use of “emergency” door control buttons got watered down somewhere down the line. The difference is a train won’t just close the doors and get going again, the knock on delays of such selfish actions could easily eat into the next morning’s commutes.

 

[jon0844]

If there were so many people banging on the windows, I am surprised nobody pulled the alarm or used the egress handles themselves. One might conclude that while they were trying to get the attention of platform staff, they were in fact happy to wait and hopefully proceed soon.

 

[ijmad]

I'm surprised no-one banged on the driver's cab door from inside the train, surely he or she would have heard that!

 

[jon0844]

2L93 1614 Clapham Junction to Stratford (London)

"This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew (TG)."

(TG = Driver)

 

[pompeyfan]

2L93 1614 Clapham Junction to Stratford (London)

"This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew (TG)."

(TG = Driver)

It wasn’t a fault, it was an ‘operational incident’ which would explain a lot more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn’t a fault, it was an ‘operational incident’ which would explain a lot more.

True, though it does seem a deficient procedure not to evacuate the train if part of it was in the platform if it was evident that it wasn't going to continue any time soon.

 

[whhistle]

I guess this was the train: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L86269/2018/11/09/advanced

After 10 minutes and you know you’re not going anywhere just open the door yourself if the train is still at the platform. It’s easy to do. Just pull the green handle. If a jobsworth on the platform says anything just tell them were to go. That’s what I do. I don’t like being treated worse then cattle.

I do what I want and nobody is going to stop me.
A millennial, yes?

The passengers were not calm at all. After 20 minutes of no commmunication they were banging on the windows and doors to get attention from the staff who constantly ignore everyone and stood on the platform in front of the carriages!
When one eventually came over to the doors a customer asked what the issue was and asked if the doors could be opened please to which the reply was, sorry I can’t hear you. We have asked for the doors to be opened. Why did he reply to the question if he didn’t hear?!!!

Have you heard how much sound deadening train carriages do?
It's pretty good and most of the time the person on the other side can hear muffling perhaps but not make out words. Plus, I don't like people to shout at me or to shout back at them unless it's a life or death situation.

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

Firstly, nobody was shouting.
Eventually when one of the platform staff came to the carriage door as people were trying to get someone’s attention in the platform as nobody was giving any information in the train, they were simply asking what’s happening and could the doors be opened please.

The guy said requests have been made for the doors to be opened (as the whole train was in the platform) but couldn’t hear what was being asked from the passenger (even though he answered the question!)
Look, at the end of the day, in my opinion, if you are in a failed train, fully on the platform and stuck inside the train for more than 20 odd minutes without any information, the doors should automatically be opened after a period of time to let passengers disembark the train-not feel trapped inside it. It’s unaceptable.

 

[PeterC]

Some problems you wouldn't be able to diagnose with the doors released. Though if only one door was used to detrain passengers when the service was finally cancelled, why would they do that if they could just open all of them? My guess would be whatever the fault was with also precluded a door release.

But it should be communicated to passengers what the problem is and what's going on, with regular updates. Our lot expect traincrew to make an announcement within two minutes.

Why only one door? I would guess to stop a fresh lot of passengers jumping on.

 

[Ethano92]

So basically,
Passenger perspective: absolutely unnecessary and pointless which is understandable given the train was fully in the platform. I say if the driver was able to, they should've released the doors after 10/15 minutes because that's when it goes from a minor problem to a noteable delay for passengers. Some may have been able to take an alternative route, Waterloo and Victoria are both accessible from Clapham.

Railway perspective: driver was preoccupied and had other things to be dealing with which probably explains the apparent lack of communication.

Both are valid, but I'll be surprised if they ever meet eye to eye

 

[ijmad]

Now, I know this is purely hypothetical but:

What if we had a second member of staff on every train. Someone who was responsible for safety, passenger information, and maybe opening and closing the doors. Could help the driver with dispatch as well. They'd leave the driver free to deal with technical issues when they occurred. I don't know if we come up with a title for this hypothetical person, but given their first duty is safety, how about 'Safety Guard'... or maybe just 'Guard'?

What do you think everyone?

 

[E6007]

Driver as well as all other staff should be customer focused, first priority, no ifs no buts. Technical problems come second. How many staff has nothing to do with it.

 

[zn1]

If there had been a Guard on Board, he/she would be in constant contact with the driver trying to sort the fault out, Driver will have been in contact with signalbox/ Maintenance controller attempting to sort the issue via comms. Staff

to put some humour on the situation Sometimes Locos and Units dont like to play, and will create gremlins to get out a days work or get to bed early..etc..

 

[DoubleO]

Driver as well as all other staff should be customer focused, first priority, no ifs no buts. Technical problems come second. How many staff has nothing to do with it.

Disagree. The driver should be SAFETY focussed, first priority. There are many situations where it is vital that the driver deals with a safety of the line incident BEFORE communicating with the passengers. Unfortunate? Yes. Frustrating? Yes. But also quite possibly a life saving action.

 

[theageofthetra]

The passengers were not calm at all. After 20 minutes of no commmunication they were banging on the windows and doors to get attention from the staff who constantly ignore everyone and stood on the platform in front of the carriages!
No help was given or advised at all. When one eventually came over to the doors a customer asked what the issue was and asked if the doors could be opened please to which the reply was, sorry I can’t hear you. We have asked for the doors to be opened. Why did he reply to the question if he didn’t hear?!!!

Over 40 minutes in a train not able to get out COMPLETELY ON A PLATFORM is not acceptable under any circumstances and there is no excuse for this. If trains are being made to ‘high modern standards’ And doors cannot be opened when there is a complete failure then something is seriously wrong. Period.

This is completely unacceptable. Have you put a formal complaint in?

 

[notlob.divad]

Disagree. The driver should be SAFETY focussed, first priority. There are many situations where it is vital that the driver deals with a safety of the line incident BEFORE communicating with the passengers. Unfortunate? Yes. Frustrating? Yes. But also quite possibly a life saving action.

And keeping passengers (or is it 'customers' / or even just 'users' these days) inside a locked tube for an extended period of time, constitutes a safety hazard in my book. Particularly without communication, as demonstrated by a post above and several recent incidents.

 

[DoubleO]

And keeping passengers (or is it 'customers' / or even just 'users' these days) inside a locked tube for an extended period of time, constitutes a safety hazard in my book. Particularly without communication, as demonstrated by a post above and several recent incidents.

I didn't say any of that. The situation sounds totally unacceptable. I simply disagreed with the previous post stating that the driver should put customers before anything else 100% of the time.

 

[Llanigraham]

Driver as well as all other staff should be customer focused, first priority, no ifs no buts. Technical problems come second. How many staff has nothing to do with it.

No, the first focus of the driver is SAFETY, nothing more than that. Customers and technical problems come after that.

 

[Wolfie]

I know of an individual (now retired so forget the millennial insults) who successfully sued for an assault (which apparently unlawful detention constitutes) when a London bus failed to stop at a compulsory stop. I think London Overground (which has gone to the dogs since Arriva took over) must be wide open to similar action if they behave like this. I absolutely would sue if I'd been on that train.

I am amazed that no-one triggered the door release.

 

[Wolfie]

And keeping passengers (or is it 'customers' / or even just 'users' these days) inside a locked tube for an extended period of time, constitutes a safety hazard in my book. Particularly without communication, as demonstrated by a post above and several recent incidents.

I agree - let alone bring legally very damn questionable.

 

[Mintona]

Driver as well as all other staff should be customer focused, first priority, no ifs no buts. Technical problems come second. How many staff has nothing to do with it.

Yes, definitely. If a train suffers a fault, no matter how minor, the driver must immediately leave the cab, walk through the train and apologise to each individual passenger. He must serve complementary snacks and drinks. Only at this point may he return to the cab to try and solve the fault, which may take a matter of seconds. Once this has been done, he must walk back through the train again, explain to everybody what has happened and how it has been resolved, and hand out delay forms. And only then, three hours later, can the train continue. Solving technical problems is just not as important as the rest.