Dorking To Horsham - No Weekday Evening Or New Years Day Service

[Surreytraveller]

If its already been DOO south of Dorking for the last six years then why does a train supervisor or guard always board the train at Epsom and Horsham for most of the day or at Dorking and Horsham (in the evening) in order to operate the doors of the train at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations when even if that Train Supervisor or Guard is still on board en route up to Epsom (which is where they swap round and travel back the other way during the day) at Boxhill & Westhumble they don't ever operate the doors at that also totally unmanned station?.................................

They don't operate the doors. Its DOO. They are required to be there for passenger assistance

 

[Capvermell]

They don't operate the doors. Its DOO. They are required to be there for passenger assistance

Sorry but they actually have a set of keys inserted in a control panel next to the door at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham and the doors don't appear to open or close till they operate them. But now you insist this is not the case I'm going to ask both the driver and the guard or train supervisor during my next few trips. And if you insist you are right and I'm wrong then what exactly is your connection with the railway that gives you this level of expertise on the matter?

If they are required to be there for "passenger assistance" then why aren't they required to also be there for so called "passenger assistance" at Boxhill & Westhumble? And by the way I have never once witnessed that "passenger assistance" being rendered.

Also what does that "passenger assistance" amount to. For instance if someone needs to get through the subway from the northbound platform at Ockley to the station forecourt and car park next to the southbound platform is the train supervisor going to hold the train, get off and accompany them until they have safely reached the northbound platform? As I understand it that's not the case and if someone substantially disabled wanted to park at Ockley and use the northbound platform they would have to have pre-booked a full disabled passenger assistance team to be there and get them to or from that platform. But no doubt they would also be encouraged to either instead travel to a station with lifts like Horsham or Dorking and cross over there or not to start their journey from Ockley at all. Despite this there are ludicrously two disabled parking spaces that I have never once seen used since their creation but that pre car parking charges at Ockley in 2018 and/or pre COVID in 2020 permanently reduced the maximum capacity of the station car park (which was then usually full almost every day on a weekday) by two cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry but they actually have a set of keys inserted in a control panel next to the door at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham and the doors don't appear to open or close till they operate them.

The driver operates the doors in the same manner as DOO. After the driver has released, the OBS* puts the key in which prevents the driver closing that specific door (and so prevents them departing) until they have had chance to check the platform and do any assistance etc they need to do. The OBS doesn't control any other doors.

I don't know why it's done at some stations and not others - possibly it is only needed at stations without platform staff as they would do assistance at platforms that do have them.

* On Board Supervisor - I think this exact role is exclusive to GTR's Southern (and possibly Gatwick Express?) brand.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Sorry but they actually have a set of keys inserted in a control panel next to the door at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham and the doors don't appear to open or close till they operate them. But now you insist this is not the case I'm going to ask both the driver and the guard or train supervisor during my next few trips. And if you insist you are right and I'm wrong then what exactly is your connection with the railway that gives you this level of expertise on the matter?

If they are required to be there for "passenger assistance" then why aren't they required to also be there for so called "passenger assistance" at Boxhill & Westhumble? And by the way I have never once witnessed that "passenger assistance" being rendered.

Also what does that "passenger assistance" amount to. For instance if someone needs to get through the subway from the northbound platform at Ockley to the station forecourt and car park next to the southbound platform is the train supervisor going to hold the train, get off and accompany them until they have safely reached the northbound platform? As I understand it that's not the case and if someone substantially disabled wanted to park at Ockley and use the northbound platform they would have to have pre-booked a full disabled passenger assistance team to be there and get them to or from that platform. But no doubt they would also be encouraged to either instead travel to a station with lifts like Horsham or Dorking and cross over there or not to start their journey from Ockley at all. Despite this there are ludicrously two disabled parking spaces that I have never once seen used since their creation but that pre car parking charges at Ockley in 2018 and/or pre COVID in 2020 permanently reduced the maximum capacity of the station car park (which was then usually full almost every day on a weekday) by two cars.

The reason why there's an OBS for stations south of Dorking, was during the DOO dispute of six years ago, the outcome was that every route that previously had a conductor on it would have an OBS on it under the new arrangements. Conductors worked south of Dorking, so therefore these trains ended up having OBSs.
Routes that got taken over by Thameslink in 2018 had their own separate arrangements

 

[Capvermell]

I don't know why it's done at some stations and not others - possibly it is only needed at stations without platform staff as they would do assistance at platforms that do have them.

Totally unmanned Boxhill & Westhumble is on precisely the same train line served by the same trains from Horsham (as well as by three other trains an hour starting and ending their service at Dorking) and yet the On Board Supervisor does not control the closing of one set of doors or check if it is safe for the train to depart at that station.

This is even though on the train from Horsham via Dorking for much of the day the On Board Supervisor remains on board until Epsom station and then crosses over and travels back the other way to Horsham station from there.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Totally unmanned Boxhill & Westhumble is on precisely the same train line served by the same trains from Horsham (as well as by three other trains an hour starting and ending their service at Dorking) and yet the On Board Supervisor does not control the closing of one set of doors or check if it is safe for the train to depart at that station.

This is even though on the train from Horsham via Dorking for much of the day the On Board Supervisor remains on board until Epsom station and then crosses over and travels back the other way to Horsham station from there.

Boxhill went DOO over twenty years ago, long before the current arrangements at Ockley began

 

[Capvermell]

The reason why there's an OBS for stations south of Dorking, was during the DOO dispute of six years ago, the outcome was that every route that previously had a conductor on it would have an OBS on it under the new arrangements. Conductors worked south of Dorking, so therefore these trains ended up having OBSs.
Routes that got taken over by Thameslink in 2018 had their own separate arrangements

Well it doesn't make any logical sense at all as also doesn't the fact that these OBS persons also get on the train and off the train at Epsom for much of the day (but not in the evening) and so are still on it at Boxhill and Westhumble and yet they only do their passenger assistance thing at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations.

Still who said that union protection of pointless and unnecessary obsolete jobs makes any sense whatsoever as there seem to be numerous jobs carried out at Horsham station that don't seem to make any sense and to vastly add to the cost of running the railways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it doesn't make any logical sense at all as also doesn't the fact that these OBS persons also get on the train and off the train at Epsom for much of the day (but not in the evening) and so are still on it at Boxhill and Westhumble and yet they only do their passenger assistance thing at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations.

Are you sure they don't do it at every station, just from a different coach at some stations possibly based on the best sightlines? My experience of seeing them is that they pretty much always do it.

They definitely do not control the doors other than the one at which they have keyed in.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Well it doesn't make any logical sense at all as also doesn't the fact that these OBS persons also get on the train and off the train at Epsom for much of the day (but not in the evening) and so are still on it at Boxhill and Westhumble and yet they only do their passenger assistance thing at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations.

The OBSs 'assist' to Epsom. This is a harkback to when the line went DOO south of Epsom, as the conductors that used to work the line would pass from Epsom to Dorking to work the train.

 

[Capvermell]

Boxhill went DOO over twenty years ago, long before the current arrangements at Ockley began

Precisely. So it doesn't make any logical sense at all that the same thing hasn't happened at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham.................

 

[Surreytraveller]

Precisely. So it doesn't make any logical sense at all that the same thing hasn't happened at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham.................

Because the agreement made over twenty years ago to go DOO as far as Dorking is different to the agreement made six years ago to go DOO beyond Dorking.
You also have disability requirements to take into account, so anything already in place can stand, but any new arrangements cannot be worse.

 

[Capvermell]

The OBSs 'assist' to Epsom. This is a harkback to when the line went DOO south of Epsom, as the conductors that used to work the line would pass from Epsom to Dorking to work the train.

I still don't get why it isn't also made DOO all the way through to Horsham when Boxhill & Westhumble is served by exactly the same train as Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham. Its all a huge waste of money that is keeping fares unnecessarily high and makes Southern less enthusiastic about continuing to run trains south of Dorking during periods when less passengers travel.

But then I can identify about six or more jobs at Horsham station that are completely pointless and unnecessary and simply result in much higher fares for passengers. At Dorking station the number of these pointless jobs seems substantially less but I presume that's because train aren't joined and divided at Dorking station..............

Because the agreement made over twenty years ago to go DOO as far as Dorking is different to the agreement made six years ago to go DOO beyond Dorking.
You also have disability requirements to take into account, so anything already in place can stand, but any new arrangements cannot be worse.

The OBS never actually physically assists any passengers so the whole thing is a complete and utter nonsense invented by the unions to protect unnecessary jobs.

As BA doesn't seem to have been shy to revisit the question of excessively high wages on short haul routes from Gatwick why have the rail operators not returned to this question at a later date?..........

Are you sure they don't do it at every station, just from a different coach at some stations possibly based on the best sightlines? My experience of seeing them is that they pretty much always do it.

They definitely do not control the doors other than the one at which they have keyed in.

I have seen them just take a seat after Dorking and do nothing at all until they reach Epsom. But I will start watching them more carefully in future and stay in the same carriage as them to make sure that I'm right.

 

[Class 466]

This thread has definitely drifted from a question about why Southern (like many other operators) run a Sunday service on NYD to a general moan about all that's wrong with the service provision between Dorking & Horsham - which is being replicated across two threads at once. I wouldn't say a lot of these rail staff have 'pointless' or 'unnecessary' jobs either...

 

[Surreytraveller]

I still don't get why it isn't also made DOO all the way through to Horsham when Boxhill & Westhumble is served by exactly the same train as Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham. Its all a huge waste of money that is keeping fares unnecessarily high and makes Southern less enthusiastic about continuing to run trains south of Dorking during periods when less passengers travel.

But then I can identify about six or more jobs at Horsham station that are completely pointless and unnecessary and simply result in much higher fares for passengers. At Dorking station the number of these pointless jobs seems substantially less but I presume that's because train aren't joined and divided at Dorking station..............



The OBS never actually physically assists any passengers so the whole thing is a complete and utter nonsense invented by the unions to protect unnecessary jobs.

As BA doesn't seem to have been shy to revisit the question of excessively high wages on short haul routes from Gatwick why have the rail operators not returned to this question at a later date?..........



I have seen them just take a seat after Dorking and do nothing at all until they reach Epsom. But I will start watching them more carefully in future and stay in the same carriage as them to make sure that I'm right.

It is DOO all the way to Horsham.
The OBSs are only 'assisting' from Dorking to Epsom. They are not required to be there, so can alight at Dorking if their train is running late for example. Their duties are different id they are assisting compared to if they're working a train.
As for the six jobs at Horsham, you probably don't know what their jobs involve if you don't even know what the person on the train does that you observe so keenly

Because the agreement made over twenty years ago to go DOO as far as Dorking is different to the agreement made six years ago to go DOO beyond Dorking.
You also have disability requirements to take into account, so anything already in place can stand, but any new arrangements cannot be worse.

Ockley. Centre of the universe.

This thread has definitely drifted from a question about why Southern (like many other operators) run a Sunday service on NYD to a general moan about all that's wrong with the service provision between Dorking & Horsham - which is being replicated across two threads at once. I wouldn't say a lot of these rail staff have 'pointless' or 'unnecessary' jobs either...

Ockley. Centre of the universe

 

[Capvermell]

This thread has definitely drifted from a question about why Southern (like many other operators) run a Sunday service on NYD to a general moan about all that's wrong with the service provision between Dorking & Horsham - which is being replicated across two threads at once.

Its my thread (or at least I started it and set the topic) and its topic also includes the much wider and it would seem potentially much longer running question of why Southern have removed weekday evening service for the time being by dint of using a revised version of the Saturday service (only difference is there's an extra train around 6am and trains terminate at London Bridge and not London Victoria) when a Saturday service with no evening services and no train back from London much beyond 5pm is not appropriate as a Monday to Friday solution even during a period of high Omicron infections.

I wouldn't say a lot of these rail staff have 'pointless' or 'unnecessary' jobs either...

There's an information office on Platforms 3 and 4 permanently manned by two staff and an information office on platforms 1 and 2 manned by one member of staff. How is it that at so many other stations passengers manage to function without any information office on the platforms and this seems to even include all of the platforms at Gatwick Airport station that number 7 rather than 4 platforms in total. Pre pandemic passenger numbers at Horsham were 2.5 million passengers a year but at Gatwick 20 million passengers a year.

I doubt that any rail employee deems any job pointless or unnecessary. I'm sure those who manned the platform and the ticket office at Ockley no doubt felt the same until their jobs were done away with some time in the 1970s or 80s.

Perhaps if trains were joined and divided at Gatwick Airport instead of at Horsham (all of the trains joined and divided at Horsham also travel through Gatwick Airport most of the grotesque levels of overmanning at Horsham could be done away with.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Its my thread (or at least I started it and set the topic) and its topic also includes the much wider and it would seem potentially much longer running question of why Southern have removed weekday evening service for the time being by dint of using a revised version of the Saturday service (only difference is there's an extra train around 6am and trains terminate at London Bridge and not London Victoria) when a Saturday service with no evening services and no train back from London much beyond 5pm is not appropriate as a Monday to Friday solution even during a period of high Omicron infections.



There's an information office on Platforms 3 and 4 permanently manned by two staff and an information office on platforms 1 and 2 manned by one member of staff. How is it that at so many other stations passengers manage to function without any information office on the platforms and this seems to even include all of the platforms at Gatwick Airport station that number 7 rather than 4 platforms in total. Pre pandemic passenger numbers at Horsham were 2.5 million passengers a year but at Gatwick 20 million passengers a year.

I doubt that any rail employee deems any job pointless or unnecessary. I'm sure those who manned the platform and the ticket office at Ockley no doubt felt the same until their jobs were done away with some time in the 1970s or 80s.

Perhaps if trains were joined and divided at Gatwick Airport instead of at Horsham (all of the trains joined and divided at Horsham also travel through Gatwick Airport most of the grotesque levels of overmanning at Horsham could be done away with.

Its been explained umpteen times, that the reason the timetable for this week is operating, is because there wasn't the time and resources to replan it to align with the number of drivers available.
Its not because anyone's got anything against the residents of Ockley

Its been explained umpteen times, that the reason the timetable for this week is operating, is because there wasn't the time and resources to replan it to align with the number of drivers available.
Its not because anyone's got anything against the residents of Ockley

Perhaps you need to lobby Southern to extend the Saturday evening service to Horsham. That way you will have a service between Christmas and New Year.

 

[Capvermell]

Perhaps you need to lobby Southern to extend the Saturday evening service to Horsham. That way you will have a service between Christmas and New Year.

Don't worry as I'm about to lobby Southern/GoVia, the DfT and Passenger Focus on the same subject including the fact that Dorking to Horsham gained a Saturday evening service for the first time (albeit via a shuttle between Dorking and Horsham that also operated in the weekday off-peak) but this was then taken away when an almost normal pre-lockdown timetable resumed. Although in fact the pre-lockdown timetable never fully resumed as we only re-gained the weekday morning peak half hourly services for 90 minutes and not the equivalent weekday evening peak services for whatever reasons.

However as I will undoubtedly hear a long and resounding initial silence back from all of the above to any communication I send on the topic it was useful to initially raise my concerns in this forum where one seems almost guaranteed of a significant rapid response, even if not all the responses are answers that one wants to hear.

As to whoever it was who said the 93 bus also covers much of the route the journey times are horrendous (35 minutes from Ockley to Dorking Station compared to 10 minutes on the train) and its like travelling in a washing machine drum on the spin cycle in terms of journey comfort and quality. Fares are also disgusting on the 93 with a charge of £7.70 return or £4.20 single from Capel to Dorking or Horsham compared to £4.80 return on a weekday or £3.20 return at the weekend (Network Card discounted fare) from Ockley to Horsham on the much more comfortable and much faster train.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's the patronage at Ockley in a "normal" year? Roughly just under 40,000 passengers per annum? Comparable then to somewhere like Chassen Road in my corner of the country, which also has no Sunday service.

So, hardly a major rail centre, but no doubt important enough to those living in that particular part of Surrey.

 

[yorksrob]

It strikes me that Horsham - Dorking is one of those routes that gets particularly poorly treated, and the services mentioned by @Capvermell which were withdrawn as part of the covid cuts and which show no sign of coming back, have resonance for myself with services such as Huddwesfield - Castleford.

I'd re-iterate my earlier suggestion of writing to the m.p. as a complaint to Mr Sunak from one of his own party about these highly damaging cuts to already sparse services, is likely to carry more weight than my local m.p who is on the opposition.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd re-iterate my earlier suggestion of writing to the m.p. as a complaint to Mr Sunak from one of his own party about these highly damaging cuts to already sparse services, is likely to carry more weight than my local m.p who is on the opposition.

a complaint to the local MP won’t get anywhere near Mr Sunak. Unless, of course the local MP is also Mr Sunak, which will only apply to people who have an issue at Northallerton.

 

[yorksrob]

a complaint to the local MP won’t get anywhere near Mr Sunak. Unless, of course the local MP is also Mr Sunak, which will only apply to people who have an issue at Northallerton.

It might have more chance of finding its way to the correct underling though.

 

[LowLevel]

Crikey, rant, rant, rant, rant, rant. It is hard to feel any sympathy for Mr Angry of Ockley Halt having to shell out for his taxi.

 

[Bald Rick]

It might have more chance of finding its way to the correct underling though.

no chance. It would go to an official in the DfT.

 

[yorksrob]

no chance. It would go to an official in the DfT.

Even then, the DfT were run by the Government, last time I checked.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even then, the DfT were run by the Government, last time I checked.

of course! I thought your comment was that you wanted the holders of the purse strings to see the letter.

 

[yorksrob]

of course! I thought your comment was that you wanted the holders of the purse strings to see the letter.

That would be the ideal. That said, the corridors of power are labyrinthine, so any way in is a bonus.

 

[Bald Rick]

That would be the ideal. That said, the corridors of power are labyrinthine, so any way in is a bonus.

we’re slightly off topic, but in my experience what happens is that if an MP gets a letter on something like this from a constituent, they will do one or both of:

1) write themselves to the MD of the TOC concerned, with a copy of the constituent’s letter, requesting a reply to their constituent‘s concern. TOC MD replies (usually within 7-14 days), and MP copies response to constituent.

2) write to the Secretary of State for Transport, with a copy of the constituent’s letter, asking very nicely if they wouldn’t mind having a look. Usually this would be replied to by the SOS private office, with help from the officials in the department. Rarely will the SOS actually see this other than to sign it, they are often signed ‘on behalf of’, or ‘SOS asked me to reply on his/her behalf’.

 

[duncombec]

I've been following the various tentacles of this argument over the three (or is it now four?) threads, but through the lengthy strings of adjectives and invective, there are still elements I'm unsure on, which perhaps the OP could explain succinctly.

Why, exactly:
- does the OP believe that there should be a service at the stated times to the three stations in question, given their combined passenger total in 2019 of 120,774 [for comparison, Boxhill & Westhumble had 115,000 alone];
- should those stations be given priority for such a service over other routes, possibly with higher passenger numbers?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I've been following the various tentacles of this argument over the three (or is it now four?) threads, but through the lengthy strings of adjectives and invective, there are still elements I'm unsure on, which perhaps the OP could explain succinctly.

Why, exactly:
- does the OP believe that there should be a service at the stated times to the three stations in question, given their combined passenger total in 2019 of 120,774 [for comparison, Boxhill & Westhumble had 115,000 alone];
- should those stations be given priority for such a service over other routes, possibly with higher passenger numbers?

The OP believes there should be a service, as on a Monday to Friday there would be a service until late in the evening.
Because the period between Christmas and New Year is based upon a Saturday service, this evening service wasn't planned to operate last week.
Because last week's service was rolled over into this week, last week's service has thus continued.
Whilst the OP is correct and there should be a service, the resources do not exist to plan it.

 

[30907]

It strikes me that Horsham - Dorking is one of those routes that gets particularly poorly treated

I'd re-iterate my earlier suggestion of writing to the m.p. as a complaint to Mr Sunak from one of his own party about these highly damaging cuts to already sparse services, is likely to carry more weight than my local m.p who is on the opposition.

If the OP can persuade other users of the (timetabled) weekday evening service (at all the relevant stations) to write, with specific detail of the inconvenience they are subjected to, the MP is more likely to take notice.

Why, exactly:
- does the OP believe that there should be a service at the stated times to the three stations in question, given their combined passenger total in 2019 of 120,774 [for comparison, Boxhill & Westhumble had 115,000 alone];

because the timetable says so.

- should those stations be given priority for such a service over other routes, possibly with higher passenger numbers?

I am not aware that other routes on GTR have lost a swathe of services like that - and I doubt that reinstating them would have a catastrophic effect elsewhere.

That said, I have a sneaking suspicion that, while WFH persists, a GTR standby taxi at Dorking might be a better use of resources, if ASLEF would wear it
My suspicion is no doubt wrong.