Dorking To Horsham - No Weekday Evening Or New Years Day Service

[yorksrob]

If the OP can persuade other users of the (timetabled) weekday evening service (at all the relevant stations) to write, with specific detail of the inconvenience they are subjected to, the MP is more likely to take notice.

That would help certainly - as he is a Councillor, his connections to the community may assist with that.

The key point I take from this thread is that the route has pre-lockdown had a day-long Monday - Saturday service, and that at a time post lockdown when things ought to be getting back to normal, this still has not been resumed. Infact it looks as though an inadequate service on Saturdays without evening trains (the day when passengers are most likely to need evening trains) has been instated with no sign of it being changed.

As such, whatever one thinks of the OP's tone, his point is absolutely right, and he is justified in lobbying to get the pre-covid service reinstated.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That would help certainly - as he is a Councillor, his connections to the community may assist with that.

The key point I take from this thread is that the route has pre-lockdown had a day-long Monday - Saturday service, and that at a time post lockdown when things ought to be getting back to normal, this still has not been resumed. Infact it looks as though an inadequate service on Saturdays without evening trains (the day when passengers are most likely to need evening trains) has been instated with no sign of it being changed.

As such, whatever one thinks of the OP's tone, his point is absolutely right, and he is justified in lobbying to get the pre-covid service reinstated.

By the time the cogs of bureaucracy turn, the service will have returned.
And everyone can claim the complaining is what caused it to return

 

[yorksrob]

By the time the cogs of bureaucracy turn, the service will have returned.
And everyone can claim the complaining is what caused it to return

Ah, but will it though......

I agree it's not so much use getting hot under the collar over the festive period if normality reigns come January.

The problem appears to be that the "normality" returning isn't normality at all, rather a tawdry covid service without evening trains with no sign of change.

 

[Glenn1969]

Ah, but will it though......

I agree it's not so much use getting hot under the collar over the festive period if normality reigns come January.

The problem appears to be that the "normality" returning isn't normality at all, rather a tawdry covid service without evening trains with no sign of change.

I don't see normality until at least Easter. Blame Omicron and its effects on just about all industry- and the Tories' reluctance to do anything about it because they would rather protect the economy

 

[yorksrob]

I don't see normality until at least Easter. Blame Omicron and its effects on just about all industry- and the Tories' reluctance to do anything about it because they would rather protect the economy

What is there that the Tories can do, other than get as many people as possible vaccinated and keep the isolation period under review.

That aside, the vast majority of routes on the Southern Region appear to be maintaining an all day hourly service in spite of covid, so I don't see that it can be used as an excuse for this line.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Ah, but will it though......

I agree it's not so much use getting hot under the collar over the festive period if normality reigns come January.

The problem appears to be that the "normality" returning isn't normality at all, rather a tawdry covid service without evening trains with no sign of change.

There's no point in a councillor complaining about Southern's inability to have admin resources in place when their own wheels of admin take ages to grind

 

[Glenn1969]

What is there that the Tories can do, other than get as many people as possible vaccinated and keep the isolation period under review.

That aside, the vast majority of routes on the Southern Region appear to be maintaining an all day hourly service in spite of covid, so I don't see that it can be used as an excuse for this line.

Limit mixing like has happened in Scotland and Wales/ make masks mandatory in more settings/ invest in ventilation/ restore NHS and Police numbers to 2010 levels

 

[yorksrob]

There's no point in a councillor complaining about Southern's inability to have admin resources in place when their own wheels of admin take ages to grind

Councils lobby on all sorts of things, but if I were the OP I'd be complaining about the longer term timetable reductions.

Limit mixing like has happened in Scotland and Wales/ make masks mandatory in more settings/ invest in ventilation/ restore NHS and Police numbers to 2010 levels

Most of those would take longer than Easter anyway (I'll swerve the mask issue as it's been discussed elsewhere).

 

[duncombec]

The OP believes there should be a service, as on a Monday to Friday there would be a service until late in the evening.
Because the period between Christmas and New Year is based upon a Saturday service, this evening service wasn't planned to operate last week.
Because last week's service was rolled over into this week, last week's service has thus continued.
Whilst the OP is correct and there should be a service, the resources do not exist to plan it.

Thanks: I was starting to lose track whether it was a) the rollover timetable alone, b) the missing Saturday evening service in general, exacerbated by it being used as the basis for the rollover timetable or c) both!
Annoying though it is, this is almost certainly 'collateral damage' from the rollover rather than any willful downgrading of services based on - presumably pretty minimal - passenger numbers.

I am not aware that other routes on GTR have lost a swathe of services like that - and I doubt that reinstating them would have a catastrophic effect elsewhere.

That said, I have a sneaking suspicion that, while WFH persists, a GTR standby taxi at Dorking might be a better use of resources, if ASLEF would wear it
My suspicion is no doubt wrong.

True, but unless I'm very wide of the mark and the Saturday service (or lack thereof) has no resemblance to expected passenger usage (*), presumably it wasn't high on the list for any emergency adaptations - and if there was capacity to do that, they probably would have been focused on keeping something into Victoria!

A taxi or minibus at Dorking does seem a very pragmatic solution, if it would carry the passenger numbers, and may even be quicker to introduce than the train service. Perhaps the OP would like to suggest it, on the basis that proposing an alternative solution is always better than complaining alone? Perhaps the or district council could offer to pay for it on a trial basis on a Saturday!

(*) I am aware of the argument that if there isn't a service nobody can use it, but equally - as the OP states - if enough people complain it would be hard to justify not doing so.

 

[MontyP]

It strikes me that Horsham - Dorking is one of those routes that gets particularly poorly treated, and the services mentioned by @Capvermell which were withdrawn as part of the covid cuts and which show no sign of coming back, have resonance for myself with services such as Huddwesfield - Castleford.

I'd re-iterate my earlier suggestion of writing to the m.p. as a complaint to Mr Sunak from one of his own party about these highly damaging cuts to already sparse services, is likely to carry more weight than my local m.p who is on the opposition.

Ockley doesn't have any other services except the Dorking to Horsham trains. This isn't true for Huddersfield to Castleford - all stations on that route have other services.

 

[yorksrob]

Ockley doesn't have any other services except the Dorking to Horsham trains. This isn't true for Huddersfield to Castleford - all stations on that route have other services.

So really the OP has even more of a point when you think about it !

 

[Capvermell]

So to update this further and faced with the situation of having no last train back from London Bridge to my local station on a weekday this week, next week and quite possibly for several weeks or months after (although I think its likely that most of the services that normally run in to and out of London Victoria rather than London Bridge on a Saturday based timetable will do so again after January 17th) today I decided to visit both Horsham and Dorking stations (both of which represent legitimate routing paths from a London Terminus to travel back to Ockley Station) and ask both for their opinion on how long this much reduced xmas week service might last and on what would happen if a passenger with a legitimate return ticket from Ockley to a London terminus arrived at their station and found themselves unable to reach Ockley station at a time when train services permitting them to do so would still normally be running.

So for various reasons including train timings I traveled first from Ockley to Horsham station, which both due to both higher passenger numbers than Dorking (2.8 million passengers per year pre pandemic vs 1.1 million for Dorking) and due to its important function in splitting and joining fast and slow trains travelling up and down the Arun Valley line and further along the coast (eg to Portsmouth Harbour and Southampton) both has a proper station manager (who is also station manager of at least 9 surrounding stations including Dorking and Crawley) and seems to have a peak daytime staffing complement of up to about 10 members of staff compared to an apparent maximum complement of 4 staff members at Dorking.

So at Horsham I encountered a very good attitude from the staff who were hugely sympathetic to the issue of the three stations between Dorking and Horsham being deprived of their usual level of weekday evening service and they told me that it was only because of lobbying by their own station's staff, including the station manager, that a first service of the day to Dorking, Leatherhead (including the important connection at Leatherhead to Guildford) and Epsom at 8.14am from Horsham (the normal Saturday service timetable start time) was not adequate for the needs of those going to work that a decision had been made to convert a train leaving Horsham at 5.50am that normally runs empty up to London anyway on a Saturday in to a passenger train, even though there was then a gap of 2 hours and 24 minutes until the next direct service to Dorking and northwards. So I said taking that point wasn't there also a counterpart train back from London Bridge in the evening that ran empty out of service to Horsham from Dorking and couldn't that also be made in to a passenger service at minimal extra cost. They said that this point had also been made by staff at their station but the GoVia train management response was to claim that the 15 or so extra minutes it might take the 2326 from London Bridge to continue south of Dorking to Horsham (which it still runs to anyway but empty) would put the driver crew over their maximum hours. I have to say I am unconvinced that answer by management is a truthful one and I think the real reason is because Southern train management staff have an ingrained prejudice against running any train services that have a frequency of less than hourly, even though that arrangement ran quite happily for over 14 years in respect of the 2326 weekday service from London Victoria to Horsham via Leatherhead and Dorking. And only once during this period did I narrowly miss the 1920 service to Ockley and so have to wait another 4 hours and 6 minutes to catch my next train home.

They then suggested to me (rather than vica versa) that if I was to turn up at Horsham Station at the customer service and train management desk on Platforms 3 and 4 with a valid return ticket from Ockley in the evening saying I was unable to get home as the temporary Omicron driver shortage Saturday Service based timetable had removed my normal last weekday train that they would happily use the Southern taxi account to call me a taxi to take me to Ockley Station (which happens to be 0.75 miles after the taxi passes right by the entrance to the road I live in so with any luck the taxi driver would drop me off there). They did however say that it would of course depend on who was on duty when I got there and they couldn't guarantee everyone on duty would call me a taxi and also that I might have to wait quite some time at a busy time of night for the taxi to arrive. The one point I didn't broach with them was the normal last possible train to reach Ockley northbound on the regular timetable leaves Horsham at 2114, whereas the last last train from Dorking station to Ockley on the regular timetable is at 0026. So going via Horsham and being offered a taxi home would probably only get me back just under 3 hours later than the last train out of London Bridge to Horsham. Better than a last train home from London at 1725 but still not good enough to be able to go out in London for the evening.

However since it would clearly be much better to have the option of travelling to Dorking on the last service from London Bridge at 2326 reaching Dorking at 0030 I then got on the train up to Dorking to pose the same question where I met a very different reaction indeed. Dorking does not have a station manager as it is managed by the Horsham Station Manger (but actually I wasn't talking to the station manager at Horsham but only one of the supervisors as the station manager was not there this afternoon) but it does have a supervisor and the gentleman there tonight in the station control room could only be described as both inscrutable and something of a customer hater all at the same time. So his response re whether he thought it was reasonable that the last train of the day on a weekday from London Bridge to Ockley was 1725 on this extended Christmas timetable was one of "no comment" (which he refused to budge from) and then when I asked if I turned up on the last train from London Bridge reaching Dorking at 00.30 would he call me a taxi to Ockley his reply was definitely not. I then wandered around to the barriers where there was a barrier operator/ticket collector staff member but also coming back from his break some kind of No.2 to the Station Supervisor. This guy was not what I would call a hardened customer hater or cruncher (which the station supervisor definitely did seem to be) and was genuinely sympathetic to the problem of the vastly reduced weekday evening service south of Dorking. However he made it clear ultimately the decision on a taxi was not his call but that of the station supervisor and it was clear that the supervisor I met tonight would definitely not call me a taxi if arriving back on the last Southern train of the night to Dorking.

So it seems that if I catch the 2000 train from London Bridge that gets to Horsham at 2109 on the current weekday timetable that there is a pretty fair chance the station supervisor there would call a taxi to take me to Ockley station but I doubt this would happen if I arrived at Horsham on the 2300 from London Bridge arriving at 0005 or even the 2343 arriving at 0049 because their argument could obviously be that the last connecting train on that routing to Ockley left Horsham at 2114.

So I think clearly work to be done here in corresponding with Southern management highlighting the major discrepancy in the policy position of the Dorking and Horsham station supervisors this afternoon and suggesting that as the regular latest possible journey to Ockley on a weekday on the normal timetable is the 2325 reaching Dorking at 0026 and Ockley at 0038 that the station supervisor there should be instructed to call a taxi for anyone arriving at Dorking with a valid ticket to Ockley on that train or on any earlier train after the final 1725 service of the day from London Bridge to Ockley has departed Dorking at 1830, some five hours before the normal last service to Ockley of the day from Dorking on a weekday.

Clearly its very unsatisfactory that whether or not one might be called a taxi to make up for Southern's ridiculous early termination of through services south of Dorking on a weekday should depend on the personality of the station supervisor and instead some kind of firm guidance on this question from Southern senior management is needed so that passenger can be sure that they will still get home at a time of day when through train services as far as Dorking are still available........

Long essay I will agree but I think there was a lot of ground to cover there and I think its worthwhile when its more than possible that this no trains south of Dorking on a weekday after the 1725 service from London Bridge or London Victoria (I'm guessing that trains will be re-timetabled to run from London Victoria after Jan 17th but only running on a Saturday timetable service base) situation might continue until the summer timetable in May if not indefinitely. Although I'm hoping that all of this won't be necessary and that Southern management will come to its senses and realise its totally unreasonable that passengers south of Dorking can't get home at all in the evening and hence that they will agree to convert the 2326 currently running from London Bridge (and probably soon from London Victoria) that runs out of service from Dorking to Horsham anyway back in to a passenger train. In addition I think its completely unreasonable for the final early evening service of the day to Horsham via Dorking from London on a weekday to be at 1725 so I think that services should also be provided at 1825 and 1925 and probably also 2125. However if that really isn't possible with the driver resource that Southern will have available after Jan 17th then the 2325 service definitely should still be made a passenger train given that it runs anyway but empty after Dorking on this timetable so making it a passenger train south of Dorking requires negligible extra staff resource other than the additional on board supervisor required to run in passenger service (who at this time of night would come up by taxi from Horsham to Dorking and then travel on the train from Dorking back to Horsham).

Clearly battle will now ensue between those who seem to be on my side here and those who have been loud and eloquent (a number of whom I strongly suspect either live in large towns with frequent train services or may even be under cover members of Southern or GoVia's train planning team given one poster's extraordinarily detailed knowledge of the history and characteristics of the line from Dorking to Horsham) in essentially arguing that the line from Dorking to Horsham ought to have closed down at the time of the Beeching Report and who therefore claim that I'm lucky to still have any trains at all, no matter how slow, infreqent or early terminating in nature that service might be......................

 

[Surreytraveller]

The OP reckons

So to update this further and faced with the situation of having no last train back from London Bridge to my local station on a weekday this week, next week and quite possibly for several weeks or months after (although I think its likely that most of the services that normally run in to and out of London Victoria rather than London Bridge on a Saturday based timetable will do so again after January 17th) today I decided to visit both Horsham and Dorking stations (both of which represent legitimate routing paths from a London Terminus to travel back to Ockley Station) and ask both for their opinion on how long this much reduced xmas week service might last and on what would happen if a passenger with a legitimate return ticket from Ockley to a London terminus arrived at their station and found themselves unable to reach Ockley station at a time when train services permitting them to do so would still normally be running.

So for various reasons including train timings I traveled first from Ockley to Horsham station, which both due to both higher passenger numbers than Dorking (2.8 million passengers per year pre pandemic vs 1.1 million for Dorking) and due to its important function in splitting and joining fast and slow trains travelling up and down the Arun Valley line and further along the coast (eg to Portsmouth Harbour and Southampton) both has a proper station manager (who is also station manager of at least 9 surrounding stations including Dorking and Crawley) and seems to have a peak daytime staffing complement of up to about 10 members of staff compared to an apparent maximum complement of 4 staff members at Dorking.

So at Horsham I encountered a very good attitude from the staff who were hugely sympathetic to the issue of the three stations between Dorking and Horsham being deprived of their usual level of weekday evening service and they told me that it was only because of lobbying by their own station's staff, including the station manager, that a first service of the day to Dorking, Leatherhead (including the important connection at Leatherhead to Guildford) and Epsom at 8.14am from Horsham (the normal Saturday service timetable start time) was not adequate for the needs of those going to work that a decision had been made to convert a train leaving Horsham at 5.50am that normally runs empty up to London anyway on a Saturday in to a passenger train, even though there was then a gap of 2 hours and 24 minutes until the next direct service to Dorking and northwards. So I said taking that point wasn't there also a counterpart train back from London Bridge in the evening that ran empty out of service to Horsham from Dorking and couldn't that also be made in to a passenger service at minimal extra cost. They said that this point had also been made by staff at their station but the GoVia train management response was to claim that the 15 or so extra minutes it might take the 2326 from London Bridge to continue south of Dorking to Horsham (which it still runs to anyway but empty) would put the driver crew over their maximum hours. I have to say I am unconvinced that answer by management is a truthful one and I think the real reason is because Southern train management staff have an ingrained prejudice against running any train services that have a frequency of less than hourly, even though that arrangement ran quite happily for over 14 years in respect of the 2326 weekday service from London Victoria to Horsham via Leatherhead and Dorking. And only once during this period did I narrowly miss the 1920 service to Ockley and so have to wait another 4 hours and 6 minutes to catch my next train home.

They then suggested to me (rather than vica versa) that if I was to turn up at Horsham Station at the customer service and train management desk on Platforms 3 and 4 with a valid return ticket from Ockley in the evening saying I was unable to get home as the temporary Omicron driver shortage Saturday Service based timetable had removed my normal last weekday train that they would happily use the Southern taxi account to call me a taxi to take me to Ockley Station (which happens to be 0.75 miles after the taxi passes right by the entrance to the road I live in so with any luck the taxi driver would drop me off there). They did however say that it would of course depend on who was on duty when I got there and they couldn't guarantee everyone on duty would call me a taxi and also that I might have to wait quite some time at a busy time of night for the taxi to arrive. The one point I didn't broach with them was the normal last possible train to reach Ockley northbound on the regular timetable leaves Horsham at 2114, whereas the last last train from Dorking station to Ockley on the regular timetable is at 0026. So going via Horsham and being offered a taxi home would probably only get me back just under 3 hours later than the last train out of London Bridge to Horsham. Better than a last train home from London at 1725 but still not good enough to be able to go out in London for the evening.

However since it would clearly be much better to have the option of travelling to Dorking on the last service from London Bridge at 2326 reaching Dorking at 0030 I then got on the train up to Dorking to pose the same question where I met a very different reaction indeed. Dorking does not have a station manager as it is managed by the Horsham Station Manger (but actually I wasn't talking to the station manager at Horsham but only one of the supervisors as the station manager was not there this afternoon) but it does have a supervisor and the gentleman there tonight in the station control room could only be described as both inscrutable and something of a customer hater all at the same time. So his response re whether he thought it was reasonable that the last train of the day on a weekday from London Bridge to Ockley was 1725 on this extended Christmas timetable was one of "no comment" (which he refused to budge from) and then when I asked if I turned up on the last train from London Bridge reaching Dorking at 00.30 would he call me a taxi to Ockley his reply was definitely not. I then wandered around to the barriers where there was both a barrier operator and ticket collector but also coming back from his break some kind of No.2 to the Station Supervisor. This guy was not what I would call a hardened customer hater or cruncher (which the station supervisor definitely did seem to be) and was very sympathetic to the problem of the vastly reduced weekday evening service south of Dorking. However he made it clear ultimately the decision on a taxi was not his call but that of the station supervisor and it was clear that the supervisor I met tonight would definitely not call me a taxi if arriving back on the last Southern train of the night to Dorking.

So it seems that if I catch the 2000 train from London Bridge that gets to Horsham at 2109 on the current weekday timetable that there is a pretty fair chance the station supervisor there would call a taxi to take me to Ockley station but I doubt this would happen if I arrived at Horsham on the 2300 from London Bridge arriving at 0005 or even the 2343 arriving at 0049 because their argument could obviously be that the last connecting train on that routing to Ockley left Horsham at 2114.

So I think clearly work to be done here in corresponding with Southern management highlighting the major discrepancy in the policy position of the Dorking and Horsham station supervisors this afternoon and suggesting that as the regular latest possible journey to Ockley on a weekday on the normal timetable is the 2325 reaching Dorking at 0026 and Ockley at 0038 that the station supervisor there should be instructed to call a taxi for anyone arriving at Dorking with a valid ticket to Ockley on that train or on any earlier train after the final 1725 service of the day from London Bridge to Ockley has departed Dorking at 1830, some five hours before the normal last service to Ockley of the day from Dorking on a weekday.

Clearly its very unsatisfactory that whether or not one might be called a taxi to make up for Southern's ridiculous early termination of through services south of Dorking on a weekday should depend on the personality of the station supervisor and instead some kind of firm guidance on this question from Southern senior management is needed so that passenger can be sure that they will still get home at a time of day when through train services as far as Dorking are still available........

Long essay I will agree but I think there was a lot of ground to cover there and I think its worthwhile when its more than possible that this no trains south of Dorking on a weekday after the 1725 service from London Bridge or London Victoria (I'm guessing that trains will be re-timetabled to run from London Victoria after Jan 17th but only running on a Saturday timetable service base) situation might continue until the summer timetable in May if not indefinitely. Although I'm hoping that all of this won't be necessary and that Southern management will come to its senses and realise its totally unreasonable that passengers south of Dorking can't get home at all in the evening and hence that they will agree to convert the 2326 currently running from London Bridge (and probably soon from London Victoria) that runs out of service from Dorking to Horsham anyway back in to a passenger train. In addition I think its completely unreasonable for the final early evening service of the day to Horsham via Dorking from London on a weekday to be at 1725 so I think that services should also be provided at 1825 and 1925 and probably also 2125. However if that really isn't possible with the driver resource that Southern will have available after Jan 17th then the 2325 service definitely should still be made a passenger train given that it runs anyway but empty after Dorking on this timetable so making it a passenger train south of Dorking requires negligible extra staff resource other than the additional on board supervisor required to run in passenger service (who at this time of night would come up by taxi from Horsham to Dorking and then travel on the train from Dorking back to Horsham).

Clearly battle will now ensue between those who seem to be on my side here and those who have been loud and eloquent (a number of whom I strongly suspect either live in large towns with frequent train services or may even be under cover members of Southern or GoVia's train planning team given one poster's extraordinarily detailed knowledge of the history and characteristics of the line from Dorking to Horsham) in essentially arguing that the line from Dorking to Horsham ought to have closed down at the time of the Beeching Report and who therefore claim that I'm lucky to still have any trains at all, no matter how slow, infreqent or early terminating in nature that service might be......................

I do admire your persistence, and agree that the situation needs dealing with. But to be pedantic, its the 22.55 out of London Bridge that continues empties to Horsham under this timetable, not the 23.26

 

[ComUtoR]

Shouldn't that be in Trip Reports ?

 

[Jimini]

Shouldn't that be in Trip Reports ?

...or speculative discussion

 

[Class 466]

Well at least plenty of the 'pointless' or 'unnecessary' members of staff at Horsham & Dorking were there to assist with your queries...

 

[Surreytraveller]

Shouldn't that be in Trip Reports ?

 

[yorkie]

Shouldn't that be in Trip Reports ?

I agree and have moved it any thread in the wrong section, please report the opening post in the thread and let us know (no need to reply to the thread ) and that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Capvermell]

I do admire your persistence, and agree that the situation needs dealing with. But to be pedantic, its the 22.55 out of London Bridge that continues empties to Horsham under this timetable, not the 23.26

The persistence undoubtedly comes from a feeling of something near desperation as this currently genuinely is my only travel option even though historically I also had a car option alternative. Re my being a district councillor I have not undertaken that role for 15 years but did make some inroads on the issue of no evening train service south of Dorking on a weekday at that time. I should also note the line from Dorking to Horsham did actually have a Saturday service running until around 10pm at night and a Sunday service until some date in the 1960s roughly coincident with the Beeching Axe. The fast Bognor service also used to run up the line until the late 1970s but they never stopped at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham

Re it being the 2255 out of London Bridge that continues empty to Horsham on the current time timetable that of course betrays the fact that you clearly have some kind of rail industry insider's access to out of service stock movements since that information is not published to ordinary train users. But I wil try listening out for the train running past my home in another 20 or so minutes time although I may need to go outside as I only reliably hear it when the wind is in the right direction. Annoyingly Raildar does not seem able to track movements between Dorking and Horsham for whatever reasons even though there is no problem tracking them down to Dorking from the north or up to Three Bridges from Horsam or south towards Pulborough and the coast.

 

[MCSHF007]

Without in anyway belittling the OP's concerns this thread is becoming very tedious.

 

[sd0733]

Re it being the 2255 out of London Bridge that continues empty to Horsham on the current time timetable that of course betrays the fact that you clearly have some kind of rail industry insider's access to out of service stock movements since that information is not published to ordinary train users.

Nobody needs any insider access to see an empty train, they are visible to anyone at all on Real-time Trains

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-01-07/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

if you click on the bottom one and track it at Dorking can see it carries straight on off the 2255 from London Bridge

 

[Capvermell]

Nobody needs any insider access to see an empty train, they are visible to anyone at all on Real-time Trains

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-01-07/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

if you click on the bottom one and track it at Dorking can see it carries straight on off the 2255 from London Bridge

Thank you for the link to this useful and interesting site that seems to cover some of the gaps of www.raildar.co.uk, which for whatever reasons simply does not manage to track any moving train on the line between Dorking and Horsham through Ockley and only manages to track trains down to Dorking Station but not beyond. I have pointed this out to them but they choose not to reply with an explanation.

Regarding the 2255 out of passenger use train from London Bridge I did open my window and turn off my television before the scheduled movement and I heard the train travelling through quite clearly. However around 20 minutes or so before this out of service train (so between 2350 and 2355) I heard another train clearly travelling northbound since it sounded its klaxon/whistle (as it is required to do) just before it reached Stylehurst Crossing. Yet for whatever reasons this service (which may well have been the leaf clearance or rail grinding train that often runs on the line) is not listed by www.realtimetrains.co.uk Is this because such engineering trains are not for whatever reasons logged by that service, even though I can see that a freight movement on the line yesterday was logged.

Well at least plenty of the 'pointless' or 'unnecessary' members of staff at Horsham & Dorking were there to assist with your queries...

Dorking station actually appears very modestly manned for a station where services very regularly terminate all day long. But Horsham station does on the other hand seem to have very considerably more manpower than is on the face of it apparently needed to cover the four rather than three platforms and to cover the additional task of dividing and joining trains going down and coming up the Arun Valley line.

Of course I do understand that trains need to be joined and divided safely.

On the other hand Horsham seems very frequently under resourced for ticketing functions in the main part of the day, although I suspect this problem could be largely overcome if the ticketing staff refused to serve anyone who could have purchased their ticket at one of the several automated vending machines at the station thus keeping their time free for interaction with passengers over activities that cannot be carried out at those machines such as purchasing a Network Card or replacing a lost Network Card............

 

[daodao]

The OP should be grateful that the Dorking-Horsham line still has any services. While it was formerly the main line to West Sussex, the fast services have been routed via Gatwick Airport for many years. It has become a lightly used double track rural branch line without any freight traffic and it no longer has any strategic significance; it should be considered for complete closure. The minor stations of Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham only serve small settlements and their loss would have minimal consequences. Horsham would retain frequent fast services to London via Gatwick Airport and East Croydon.

 

[Capvermell]

It has become a lightly used double track rural branch line without any freight traffic and it no longer has any strategic significance;

Its strategic significance is as the only readily available backup line from Gatwick to London Victoria when engineering works make the lines north of Gatwick unavailable and it is regularly used in this role on a Sunday several times a year. Its other strategic significance is that as Gatwick grows further and planning policies become less strict (which is the long term direction of travel) that existing settlements along the line may be expanded and there could for instance be stations added at both Kingsfold (where there were previously proposals for several thousand new homes) and at North Holmwood. I am sure that this was the other main reason that the line was kept open at the time of the Beeching report since the fast services from Bognor running up the line at that time could easily have been diverted at that time via Three Bridges and Gatwick Aiport. Safe walking routes in to both Capel and Ockley could also easily be provided with a modest amount of expenditure.

Also contrary to what the OP claims a freight train ran between Dorking and Wimbledon EMUD at 6am yesterday morning. See www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nrLY/2022-01-07/0100-0059?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual

it should be considered for complete closure. The minor stations of Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham only serve small settlements and their loss would have minimal consequences. Horsham would retain frequent fast services to London via Gatwick Airport and East Croydon.

I personally find it genuinely shocking that a member of this forum should be actively proposing the closure of an existing rail line at a time when the long term direction of travel is for the public to be discouraged from travelling by car and to move ever more towards using towards Eco friendly travel methods such as electrified railways.

 

[Capvermell]

That would help certainly - as he is a Councillor, his connections to the community may assist with that.

I was a district councillor for 7 years over 15 years ago but I am no longer involved with the council or related activities today. Also our local Member of Parliament is someone who does not seem to like public transport at all and favours travel by car (this may be to do with his age as some of us locally feel he should have retired some years ago and definitely by the time of the 2015 General Election) hence why he offered no opposition to South Western's recent proposal to halve its service frequency to Dorking from Waterloo unlike the neighbouring MP for Ashtead. Also I and this Member of Parliament do not seem to get along at all well so it seems very unlikely I could exert any influence over the matter through that channel.

The key point I take from this thread is that the route has pre-lockdown had a day-long Monday - Saturday service, and that at a time post lockdown when things ought to be getting back to normal, this still has not been resumed. Infact it looks as though an inadequate service on Saturdays without evening trains (the day when passengers are most likely to need evening trains) has been instated with no sign of it being changed.

The point is that the route actually gained a shuttle Saturday evening service during the main lockdown timetable that ran for over 6 months in 2020 because the same timetable was operated from Monday to Saturday, instead of separate Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday timetables, and Dorking to Horsham was covered by a shuttle service that ran between the two stations at off peak times of day. So to see another COVID related timetable that axes evening services in the weekday and has not Saturday evening service as part of it is exceedingly frustrating and disappointing. Also the long term direction of travel on this line in the last 18 years has been for services to increase and improve from an admittedly very low base during the 1980s and 1990s.

As such, whatever one thinks of the OP's tone, his point is absolutely right, and he is justified in lobbying to get the pre-covid service reinstated.

Thank you for your kind support on the points I have been making about the unacceptable post Christmas reduction in service on the line and my insistence that this should be reversed and evening services reinstated ASAP, even if a reduced COVID service pattern persists on Southern/GoVia's lines for some months ahead. However this episode very much emphasises the dangers of having a Saturday service without evening trains when at the drop of a hat this Saturday service can be turned in to a weekday service plus one very early morning train but with no counterpart mid or late evening train service..............

 

[Surreytraveller]

I was a district councillor for 7 years over 15 years ago but I am no longer involved with the council or related activities today. Also our local Member of Parliament is someone who does not seem to like public transport at all and favours travel by car (this may be to do with his age as some of us locally feel he should have retired some years ago and definitely by the time of the 2015 General Election) hence why he offered no opposition to South Western's recent proposal to halve its service frequency to Dorking from Waterloo unlike the neighbouring MP for Ashtead. Also I and this Member of Parliament do not seem to get along at all well so it seems very unlikely I could exert any influence over the matter through that channel.



The point is that the route actually gained a shuttle Saturday evening service during the main lockdown timetable that ran for over 6 months in 2020 because the same timetable was operated from Monday to Saturday, instead of separate Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday timetables, and Dorking to Horsham was covered by a shuttle service that ran between the two stations at off peak times of day. So to see another COVID related timetable that axes evening services in the weekday and has not Saturday evening service as part of it is exceedingly frustrating and disappointing. Also the long term direction of travel on this line in the last 18 years has been for services to increase and improve from an admittedly very low base during the 1980s and 1990s.



Thank you for your kind support on the points I have been making about the unacceptable post Christmas reduction in service on the line and my insistence that this should be reversed and evening services reinstated ASAP, even if a reduced COVID service pattern persists on Southern/GoVia's lines for some months ahead. However this episode very much emphasises the dangers of having a Saturday service without evening trains when at the drop of a hat this Saturday service can be turned in to a weekday service plus one very early morning train but with no counterpart mid or late evening train service..............

The point is, this isn't a covid related timetable. It is an engineering/Christmas related timetable, which has been utilised as the only means to cater for a rapidly deteriorating situation.
Evening services will be reinstated ASAP.

 

[MontyP]

Without in anyway belittling the OP's concerns this thread is becoming very tedious.

The beauty of a forum like this is that there is no obligation to comment (or even to read) anything that you find tedious. Your comment applies to around 99% of the material on this forum, the remaining 1% is enough to keep me interested.

I for one am fascinated by the one man crusade to describe in excruciating detail (including repeating every key point in every post) the quest to restore a handful of marginal services on a little-used line.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The beauty of a forum like this is that there is no obligation to comment (or even to read) anything that you find tedious. Your comment applies to around 99% of the material on this forum, the remaining 1% is enough to keep me interested.

I for one am fascinated by the one man crusade to describe in excruciating detail (including repeating every key point in every post) the quest to restore a handful of marginal services on a little-used line.

And the OP's failure to grasp it wasn't intentional to withdraw services from their line, it is just a side effect of the situation!

 

[daodao]

Its strategic significance is as the only readily available backup line from Gatwick to London Victoria when engineering works make the lines north of Gatwick unavailable and it is regularly used in this role on a Sunday several times a year. Its other strategic significance is that as Gatwick grows further and planning policies become less strict (which is the long term direction of travel) that existing settlements along the line may be expanded and there could for instance be stations added at both Kingsfold (where there were previously proposals for several thousand new homes) and at North Holmwood. I am sure that this was the other main reason that the line was kept open at the time of the Beeching report since the fast services from Bognor running up the line at that time could easily have been diverted at that time via Three Bridges and Gatwick Aiport. Safe walking routes in to both Capel and Ockley could also easily be provided with a modest amount of expenditure.

Also contrary to what the OP claims a freight train ran between Dorking and Wimbledon EMUD at 6am yesterday morning. See www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nrLY/2022-01-07/0100-0059?stp=WVS&show=all&order=actual

I personally find it genuinely shocking that a member of this forum should be actively proposing the closure of an existing rail line at a time when the long term direction of travel is for the public to be discouraged from travelling by car and to move ever more towards using towards Eco friendly travel methods such as electrified railways.

Diversionary roles do not justify route retention.

What evidence is there that existing settlements along the line may be expanded or that proposals for several thousand new homes are likely to come to fruition? Dorking (59 minutes from London by train on average) is at the effective limit of realistic metropolitan commuting. There is currently no train leaving the stations between Horsham and Dorking that arrives at a central London terminus station between 0730 and 0930 on weekdays, which suggests that these stations are not currently used for commuting to the capital.

The freight train that you refer to was merely a path for a works train that did not actually run - coded as (Q) on Real Time Trains.

At a time of economic pressure, one needs to cut one's coat according to one's cloth. Closing lightly used lines of minimal strategic significance where the closure would not cut off significant populations from rail access is a reasonable approach in the current economic crisis facing the railways.

 

[30907]

The key point I take from this thread is that the route has pre-lockdown had a day-long Monday - Saturday service, and that at a time post lockdown when things ought to be getting back to normal, this still has not been resumed. Infact it looks as though an inadequate service on Saturdays without evening trains (the day when passengers are most likely to need evening trains) has been instated with no sign of it being changed.

No, the Saturday service is the subject of the complaint: local pressure succeeded in getting SX evening trains restored, and that is what the OP wants - rightly.
The justification would be that people working in London (etc) often stay late in town after work, and need/want trains home. Mid-evening trains out of London seem to be much better used than in my (and your?) day. (Of course, while WFH is mandated, this is likely to be different.
On Saturdays they are much less likely to trek up to town for a show, or if they do, they may well drive further into town rather than plan around the infrequent service to the nearest station.