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Dorking to London Bridge Season Tkt

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stedanse

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Hello
I have just moved to live about half way between Dorking and Reigate stations. I was looking at season tickets and wanted to know the following:
If I purchase a Dorking to London, Southern Only, season ticket then try to use that ticket from Reigate, would the ticket be valid.

There is a route from Dorking via Reigate to London Bridge, 07:26. Although the first part of this journey is with FGW, the journey from Reigate is with Southern.

Would my ticket work at Reigate station?
 
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bb21

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Erm, can, worms.

I do not believe we reached any consensus last time such a topic popped up iirc.

AFAIK, there is no requirement that your proposed journey must be possible in its entirely on your ticket. The only requirements that I am aware of are using a permitted route at all times, which you would be if only travelling between Reigate and London, and obeying the routeing (and TOC) restrictions at all times, which you also would be by only using Southern. Therefore in my opinion what you are proposing is completely valid as there is nothing to suggest that it isn't.

Other people disagree so I cannot offer you anything more definite than this. You might want to ask Southern, and if you get permission in writing, bring it with you when you travel.
 

maniacmartin

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i personally would not attempt to use that ticket from Reigate unless I had something in writing from Southern authorising it.

There's a chance that writing to them will produce a 'no', but also they might say 'yes'.
SOUTHERN ONLY means they don't have to share the money with other Train Operating Companies that run on the permitted routes, so although the ticket is cheaper, Southern will get more overall.
 
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soil

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You could get a Box Hill - Betchworth season.

The Box Hill - Betchworth season is valid Box Hill - Sutton - Croydon - Redhill - Betchworth, plus Box Hill - Dorking - walk to Deepdene - Betchworth, and Box Hill - Leatherhead - Guildford - Betchworth.

You would then need a ticket valid from Croydon to London. A Clapham Junction - London ticket is valid for East Croydon - London Bridge and maybe the cheapest such ticket.

Either or both of these tickets might result in considerable hassle from revenue staff, although they are definitely valid for your proposed journey (they would also be valid for Dorking - Victoria), whereas IMO your original ticket is not.
 

stedanse

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is there anywhere that shows which stations are valid. Although I am not doubting anyone, I struggle to understand how a Clapham Junction to London ticket is valid for east croydon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also - I'm not sure this solves my original problem. Ideally I would like to travel from Reigate to London Bridge as this is the quickest route. Unless you are saying that i could use those tickets to go from Reigate via redhill to London bridge.
 

maniacmartin

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soil's combination of tickets is not for the rail ticket novice. I would recommend you stay clear of those tickets unless you understand why they are valid with reference to the Routeing Guide, and are prepared to have an argument and battle with the Train Operating Company about the validity.

To answer your question, the valid routes for a ticket are defined in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage , which is the contract that governs nearly all UK rail tickets. It specifies that the following are valid routes:
  • The shortest route that can be used by regular passenger services
  • Direct trains from the origin to the destination (without changing trains)
  • Routes specified in the Routeing Guide

The Routeing Guide is a complex document with lots of grey areas, ambiguity, edge cases and exceptions, but it basically boils down to a set of maps for each journey, whereby you can make any route shown on the specified maps, as long as it doesn't involve passing through the same station twice.

When it was originally drawn up during privatisation around 1996, I don't think the authors realised the ramifications of just how crazy some of the routes were that they were inadvertently allowing.
 
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soil

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is there anywhere that shows which stations are valid. Although I am not doubting anyone, I struggle to understand how a Clapham Junction to London ticket is valid for east croydon.

Clapham Junction to London Bridge is valid via East Croydon because it is a mapped route.

In addition, due to the fast, frequent trains between Clapham Junction and East Croydon, and East Croydon and London Bridge, it is often the fastest route and is indeed suggested as such by National Rail Enquiries.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CLJ/LBG/tomorrow/1300/dep

(Check the one change option)

As it is a season ticket valid for Clapham Junction - East Croydon - London Bridge, it is therefore also valid for East Croydon - London Bridge, as you may use season tickets between any of the intermediate stops between which the ticket is valid.

Also - I'm not sure this solves my original problem. Ideally I would like to travel from Reigate to London Bridge as this is the quickest route. Unless you are saying that i could use those tickets to go from Reigate via redhill to London bridge.

The train from Reigate to London Bridge calls at East Croydon.

A Clapham Junction - London Terminals season is valid from East Croydon to London Bridge.

This means you need a ticket valid between Reigate and East Croydon.

The Betchworth - Box Hill ticket is such a ticket. In this case it is valid because it is one of the shortest routes.

If you search National Rail Enquiries for Betchworth - Box Hill, specifying via Purley

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/BTO/BXW/tomorrow/1400/dep?via=Purley

it offers

Betchworth - Reigate - Redhill
Redhill - East Croydon - Norwood Junction
Norwood Junction - Sutton
Sutton - Box Hill

Again, as a season ticket, this is valid via all intermediate stations, so is a valid ticket for Reigate - Redhill - East Croydon.

Since you have a valid ticket for Reigate - East Croydon, and also East Croydon - London Bridge, you therefore have a valid ticket for Reigate - Redhill - London Bridge
 

maniacmartin

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The problem with using the Betchworth to Box Hill is that I imagine that most staff will want you to use it on a route involving a walk between Dorking Deepdene and Dorking (Main), as this is a much more 'obvious' route. I'm not disputing the validity via Croydon, but it's important to know that it might cause the OP some hassle
 

soil

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Both tickets are liable to cause problems, but they are at least valid.
 

MikeWh

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Both tickets are liable to cause problems, but they are at least valid.

I can't help wondering how long the CLJ-LBG will be valid via ECR if people start using it. Are you really saying that it can be faster that way than going via WAT-WAE?
 

paul1609

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I can't help wondering how long the CLJ-LBG will be valid via ECR if people start using it. Are you really saying that it can be faster that way than going via WAT-WAE?

I think that the London bridge to Kensington Olympia being valid via East croydon has been known about for some time has been known about for some time but presumably not enough people know about it to make it worth Southerns time to shut it down.
On the other hand the Kent various locations to via Barnham stations has been shutdown quite quickly.
I seem to recall that Johnnycache no longer works for SN?



 

soil

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I can't help wondering how long the CLJ-LBG will be valid via ECR if people start using it. Are you really saying that it can be faster that way than going via WAT-WAE?

WAT-WAE is officially a 20 minute minimum connection

ECR is only a 5 minute minimum connection

CLJ-ECR takes 10 minutes
ECR-LBG takes 13 minutes (or more)
= 23 minutes on a train plus 5 minutes connection = 28 minutes minimum

CLJ-WAT takes 8 minutes
WAE-LBG takes 4 minutes
= 12 minutes on a train plus 20 minute connection = 32 minutes minimum

Via ECR is actually the fastest possible route between CLJ and LBG, according to the official timings. (The direct train takes 44 minutes.)
 

MikeWh

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WAT-WAE is officially a 20 minute minimum connection

ECR is only a 5 minute minimum connection

CLJ-ECR takes 10 minutes
ECR-LBG takes 13 minutes (or more)
= 23 minutes on a train plus 5 minutes connection = 28 minutes minimum

CLJ-WAT takes 8 minutes
WAE-LBG takes 4 minutes
= 12 minutes on a train plus 20 minute connection = 32 minutes minimum

Via ECR is actually the fastest possible route between CLJ and LBG, according to the official timings. (The direct train takes 44 minutes.)

Whilst I realise that journey planners always work to minimum connection times, you'd have to be having a really bad day to need more than 10 minutes between arrival at WAT and departure from WAE or vice versa. Whilst good via ECR, the frequency of options the other way is significantly higher, at least until playforms 4-6 close at London Bridge.;)
 

stedanse

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Thanks for all the replies. I was about to be tempted to try the Box Hill to Betchworth season ticket but National Rail is now saying ....'Season tickets are available for all short distance and some longer journeys. There is no season ticket option available between the stations you have chosen'...

Looks like this ticket has been stopped.
 

maniacmartin

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Boxhill & Westhumble to Betchworth season tickets are still showing for me in the NRE Season Ticket Calculator.
 

MikeWh

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Thanks for all the replies. I was about to be tempted to try the Box Hill to Betchworth season ticket but National Rail is now saying ....'Season tickets are available for all short distance and some longer journeys. There is no season ticket option available between the stations you have chosen'...

Looks like this ticket has been stopped.

It still gives it to me on the season ticket calculator.
 

stedanse

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Ignore my previous reply, it appears to be showing Box Hill to Betchworth season ticket again. Although it doesn't show the route via East Croydon any more and instead has the walk from Dorking Main to Dorking Deepdene.
 

maniacmartin

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It may be a negative easement. The easements and maps used by the booking engines are not the same as the PDFs that are available to download from ATOC's website.
 

Kentish Paul

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I think that the London bridge to Kensington Olympia being valid via East croydon has been known about for some time has been known about for some time but presumably not enough people know about it to make it worth Southerns time to shut it down.
On the other hand the Kent various locations to via Barnham stations has been shutdown quite quickly.
I seem to recall that Johnnycache no longer works for SN?




When were the via Barnham tickets stopped as I used one from Ashford International to Southampton Central on June 19th returning on the25th.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Erm, can, worms.

I do not believe we reached any consensus last time such a topic popped up iirc.....

There were definately people who disagreed with that, but, IIRC, both Yorkie and myself agreed with what you have written, and that doesn't happen as often as it should.

....When it was originally drawn up during privatisation around 1996, I don't think the authors realised the ramifications of just how crazy some of the routes were that they were inadvertently allowing.

To be fair to the original authors (who had probably never met or even spoke to each other), it has had many new Routeing Points and Maps added, and many, many 'easements', since being put online.

An example of this was Carlisle-Newcastle which in the original 'paper' guide had one mapped route (direct), but when the Routeing Guide got put online, with new maps added, it was suddenly valid via Carstairs and Edinburgh or Manchester and Leeds aswell (these have since been removed).
 

bb21

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When were the via Barnham tickets stopped as I used one from Ashford International to Southampton Central on June 19th returning on the25th.

Not stopped per se, but re-routed so that they cannot be used via London from Kent. Looks like Ashford - Southampton isn't one of them.
 

Kentish Paul

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Not stopped per se, but re-routed so that they cannot be used via London from Kent. Looks like Ashford - Southampton isn't one of them.

That sounds right as I travelled out via Tonbridge, Redhill and Horsham and back via Brighton, Hastings and Rye, as suggested by my itinery and the Ashford booking office. Not bad for a £24 offpeak return.
 
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