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Double back question

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ASharpe

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Hi,

If a station is a xxx Group Routeing Point Member point can you travel to a station the group is named after and then travel back along that line to get to your destination?

For my specific example the national rail website says it is fine (although the journey is significantly longer). But the train company's website doesn't allow it.

It's 10 miles over distance, involves doubling back, isn't a through train and I can find no easement allowing it. Not all trains stop at my final destination but there is a frequent service.

Is it actually valid route? Or is it just valid by virtue of being on the national rail webite?

And as a break of journey is permitted, can I "stop short" at the furthest station and save a couple of pounds on my tickets there?

I can give the names of the stations involved if needs be.

Thanks
 
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cuccir

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It's probably easier with the station names!

However, as a general rule, Section D of the Routeing Guide states:
Journeys may not double back except between stations which are members of a
routeing point group for interchange or unless an easement permits it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by " a station the group is named after", but if it's another member of the routing group, then that is fine.

As a real life example: permitted route and times for a journey of Eaglescliffe-York would be:

Eaglescliffe 12:44 Thornaby 12:49
Thornaby 12:55 York 13:47

This journey involves doubling back through Eaglescliffe, which the service from Thornaby-York passes through but don't stop at. However as both Eaglescliffe and Thornaby are Middlesbrough Group Routeing Point Members, the route is permitted.
 
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John @ home

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The Group Station rule in full is:
GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
This means that doubling back within a Group is allowed where both origin and destination are not members of that Group, and a station within that Group is on a Permitted Route for the journey.
 

button_boxer

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As a real life example: permitted route and times for a journey of Eaglescliffe-York would be:

Eaglescliffe 12:44 Thornaby 12:49
Thornaby 12:55 York 13:47

This journey involves doubling back through Eaglescliffe, which the service from Thornaby-York passes through but don't stop at. However as both Eaglescliffe and Thornaby are Middlesbrough Group Routeing Point Members, the route is permitted.

I thought the group stations rule doesn't apply when the origin is part of the group? I.e. if stations B and C are a group then it lets you go A-B-C-B-D but not just B-C-B-D.

Edit: John @ home just said the same thing
 
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cuccir

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Hmm... that caveat is there in section A ('instructions') but not present in section the F 'National Routing Guide in Detail Document'. Incidentally, the example I chose is also interpreted as valid in National Rail Enquiries and in the TOC journey planner (East Coast) on which I checked it, which is why I posted the advice. But it seems that section A is quite clear in situations where the origin/destination is one of the routing group members.
 

bb21

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I can give the names of the stations involved if needs be.

Yes, please, if you don't mind. Like cuccir, I am not exactly sure what you are asking.

This journey involves doubling back through Eaglescliffe, which the service from Thornaby-York passes through but don't stop at. However as both Eaglescliffe and Thornaby are Middlesbrough Group Routeing Point Members, the route is permitted.

No, strictly speaking this is not permitted without an easement, as Middlesbrough Group is the origin.

The reason journey planners give this sort of itinerary is that some of them, if not all, base their results on fastest journey times. This whole malarky on doublebacks within a group is not very well implemented by the journey planners at all.

Edit: John @ home just said the same thing

Yes, John @ Home is absolutely correct, and so are you. ;)
 

ASharpe

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The full route I want to know about is Guildford to Gomshall via Dorking Deepdene.

I don't think its a station group (like Bradford Yorks Stns)

And I think from experience traveling from around thornaby to york that it is permitted as it is the shortest route with a frequent service, (Grand central isn't that frequent and open access should't really count in my opinion)

Thanks for you help
 
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bb21

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I see. I don't think you are allowed to doubleback via Dorking Deepdene as things stand.

However you might wish to argue that since the National Rail Enquiries website claims to be the "definitive source", the routes given should be honoured. (I have double-checked and it indeed allows you to travel via Dorking Deepdene on the £3.90 Off-Peak Day Single.) That said, you might find that you end up with a lot of unpleasant encounters.
 

ASharpe

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Thanks,

I won't bother with that route then.

I was thinking about using it for the last train back from Gomshall at night, but with only a two minute connection time and it technically being invalid I won't risk it. I very much doubt they would get me a taxi back to Guildford from Dorking.

It must just be some quirk of the booking system.

Thanks again
 

bb21

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Speaking of quirks of the system, there is another way to argue that your ticket is valid via a much longer route, giving validity between Guildford and Gomshall, between Gomshall and Dorking Deepdene, and back from Dorking Deepdene to Gomshall, as three separate journeys but remaining on the same train between Guildford and Dorking Deepdene. Again there is no concensus on this forum as to whether this is definitely valid, so I shall leave it out.

If you have time to explore, have a look at the National Routeing Guide and you will see what I mean once you have a basic understanding of the methodology. ;)
 

Paul Kelly

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2 minutes is a valid connection time at Dorking Deepdene, so there's no problem from that point of view. If you bought a return ticket from Guildford to Dorking Deepdene (instead of from Guildford to Gomshall), you could break your outward journey at Gomshall, then resume it to travel on the last train to Deepdene. And then 2 minutes later start your return journey using the other portion of your ticket, to get back to Guildford. Would cost £1.80 more though. But you'd be covered under the NRCoC in the event of missing the 2-minute connection, since that is (surprisingly enough) the minimum connection time at Dorking Deepdene.
 

PermitToTravel

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I am actually shocked. A minimum connection time that's about equal to the time it takes an able-bodied person* to make the connection without running? Unthinkable

*This is not discrimination, as you are perfectly free to leave more time to connect if you are not capable of changing platform via the street in 2 minutes
 

kieron

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The full route I want to know about is Guildford to Gomshall via Dorking Deepdene.

I don't think its a station group (like Bradford Yorks Stns)
It is. Gomshall is a station in Dorking group which is miles from Dorking. But, if it wasn't (like Chilworth isn't), it would be associated with Guildford anyway, and you still wouldn't be allowed to double back according to the rules.

Going via Dorking wouldn't mean you get there much quicker during the weekday daytime, so I'd consider whether I actually want to go that way in your position. It may be a more useful route at quieter times.

Then again, it wouldn't hurt too much to ask the guard on the first train.
 

ASharpe

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Doors can close up to 40 seconds early, so that leaves 80 seconds. The train could easily arrive 59 seconds late...21

I could probably make that if I moved down to the correct end of train to change platforms and ran. Can't waste a second pressing the door open button though
 

bb21

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It is. Gomshall is a station in Dorking group which is miles from Dorking. But, if it wasn't (like Chilworth isn't), it would be associated with Guildford anyway, and you still wouldn't be allowed to double back according to the rules.

Putting my pedantic hat on, the OP was correct that Gomshall is not a member of the "Dorking Stations" station group. (The example of Bradford Yk Stns makes it clear what he was referring to.) It is however a member of the "Dorking (routeing point) Group".

On a side note, I am sure that Bradford station group used to be printed differently on tickets.
 

Paul Duck

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Yes, please, if you don't mind. Like cuccir, I am not exactly sure what you are asking.



No, strictly speaking this is not permitted without an easement, as Middlesbrough Group is the origin.

The reason journey planners give this sort of itinerary is that some of them, if not all, base their results on fastest journey times. This whole malarky on doublebacks within a group is not very well implemented by the journey planners at all.



Yes, John @ Home is absolutely correct, and so are you. ;)

An Allens West To York Ticket will make doubling back to get to Eaglescliffe Valid and is only 50p more.
 
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