Double back within group stations

[dan_atki]

Something that's been bugging me for a while now is the strange advice that I've been given by staff and the National Rail website.

If I wish to travel from Swaythling to Southampton Central then for some reason I am allowed to go via Southampton Airport (for the fast services). No mention of this arrangement is given in the Easements part of the routeing guide and the only thing I have read about such doubling back is within group stations (of which all three - SWG, SOU, and SOA - fall into) where it says along the lines of doubling back within a group is allowed for for better interchanges and station facilities EXCEPT where the origin/destination is in the group:

GROUP STATIONS

The stations listed at the bottom of this page are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.



SOUTHAMPTON GROUP

Millbrook Hants
Redbridge Hants
Southampton Airport Parkway
Southampton Central
St Denys
Swaythling

Do different rules apply if BOTH origin and destination are in the group or is there something in the ERG that I'm missing?

Thanks

 

[Mojo]

I get the feeling the current routeing guide is erroneous. If you compare previous versions through the web archive, and now, you will see the current version is just the first few - it would appear to have been considerably slashed. As many of the higher number easements are still recognised by rail journey planners many have come to the conclusion that the current upload has somehow erroneously been truncated.

An example is Stapleton Rd/Lawrence Hill to anywhere north of - doubling back through Temple Meads was always permitted, and is still shown as permitted in the online journey planner - but it is no longer in the easements guide.

Have you checked older versions of the guide to see if what you have listed above is in there?

 

[dan_atki]

Have you checked older versions of the guide to see if what you have listed above is in there?

To be honest I didn't think of that (even though I noticed that the Easements list had been severely cut short).

Looking through an old version just now, though, still does not show anything :-? so I'm still confused seeing as the ERG says that if the origin and destination share a common routeing point (in this case Southampton Group routeing point member) then the only permitted route is the shortest, direct service (except where easements apply) or a variation no more than 3 miles longer (I assume doubling back is excluded from this though).

Although looking more in depth at the routeing guide I've just found this:

Routeing Point Group

Sometimes several stations have been grouped together to make a Routeing Point Group. Take Manchester as an example. The Manchester Group includes: Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria, Deansgate, Salford Crescent and Salford Central. Routeing Point Groups allow passengers to change trains at any station in the Group and even to double back between stations to enlarge the choice of permitted trains and improve the convenience of changing.

Is this the clause I'm looking for? Seems almost a bit contradictory to what they say elsewhere about routeing point groups though as I said above :-?


Putting the query in CORE it tells me:

There are no mapped routes from Swaythling to Southampton Central as they have common routeing points:
Southampton Group
It is permitted to take a direct train to one of these and then another direct train to the destination.

That explains it perfectly but still leaves me wondering where this advice is on the ERG

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That explains it perfectly but still leaves me wondering where this advice is on the ERG

Step 3 of the instructions to the ERG and NRG(96) show that if the two stations share a routeing point the shortest journey between the stations is the only permitted route in the guide. "No double backing is allowed which may require passengers to change trains short of the routeing point".

Step 5 shows that the route to a 'routeing point' from a 'related station' must be the shortest one, therefore double backing (passing through one station more than once) is not allowed at either end.

In both cases it is unless there is an easement in place.

Quotes are taken from the NRG(96) but should also apply in the ERG.

The example you show for group stations is to allow more train options, to allow better interchanges, but does not apply if your origin station is one of the group stations.

For example: You arrive from Bolton into Piccadilly on a train that doesn't stop at Salford Crescent, you can go to Salford Crescent, then to Victoria in order to get a train to Patricroft

 

[yorkie]

Planners will allow it because they don't realise it's double backing. Swaythling is not a timing point and there are no timing points between Southampton Airport Parkway and Swaythling. Sounds like it's technically not a valid route, however if you get tickets with 'suggested services' that give this route then they can't deny you the right to go that way.

 

[dan_atki]

Planners will allow it because they don't realise it's double backing. Swaythling is not a timing point and there are no timing points between Southampton Airport Parkway and Swaythling. Sounds like it's technically not a valid route, however if you get tickets with 'suggested services' that give this route then they can't deny you the right to go that way.

Makes sense regarding the journey planner.

Leaves me still wondering about the clerk at Swaythling where I turned up at 0735 one morning to get the ticket to Central where he said 'the next direct is at 0809, take the 0745 and change at Parkway'. I didn't follow the advice and waited for the 0809 as I thought he was telling me an illegitimate route (due to the double backing) and it wouldn't have got me there much quicker anyway.

I'm assuming that RJIS runs off of timing points to work out double backing so the clerk saw it was 'valid' by RJIS and assumed it is a valid route?

That is unless one of two other things occurred:
1) he gave incorrect information to me;
2) it is an 'unofficial' easement if such a thing exists? (or simply missed out of the Easements list).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Step 3 of the instructions to the ERG and NRG(96) show that if the two stations share a routeing point the shortest journey between the stations is the only permitted route in the guide. "No double backing is allowed which may require passengers to change trains short of the routeing point".

It's just occurred to me re-reading the CORE output that I have simply misinterpreted what it has said about the common routeing point.

I understand what the ERG says regarding group station but I'm wondering why two sources (maybe using the same data - i.e. timing points) are going against what is said in the ERG.

 

[yorkie]

There may well be an easement, and Mojo's thery sounds very plausible.

After all, if they have just suddenly abolished loads of easements without any consultation thus rendering some journeys impossible (e.g. the Bristol ones), that would be quite an abuse of ATOCs power. Or perhaps it's just incompetency.

With ATOC, anything is possible.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm assuming that RJIS runs off of timing points to work out double backing so the clerk saw it was 'valid' by RJIS and assumed it is a valid route?

That is unless one of two other things occurred:
1) he gave incorrect information to me;
2) it is an 'unofficial' easement if such a thing exists? (or simply missed out of the Easements list)........


.......I understand what the ERG says regarding group station but I'm wondering why two sources (maybe using the same data - i.e. timing points) are going against what is said in the ERG.

There should never be 'unofficial easements'.

When I regularly used RJIS 5 years ago it was very good but easy to misread. I should say though that how it finds routes is a mystery to me.

It would produce a route if just one out of fifty tickets is valid for it. It could produce any route if the routeing guide option is turned off. Therefore it could produce a route that appears to be valid but is not.

The top half of the screen showed the journeys possible, the bottom left was the exact details. It generally showed tickets as valid or not at the bottom right of the screen by the production of a green tick or red cross for the outward, return and out & rtn journey for each ticket on the selected journey.

So if you are not careful, you could see a ticket as valid when it is not. It may be that the clerk misread it, but, I suppose, possible that RJIS is wrong. Computers are only as good as the man that programmed it.

I don't know enough about Core to comment on it.

ATOC swears by RJIS. ATOC sets the NRG.